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Details On Inflatable Space Modules

Decibel writes "Although it's been mentioned on Slashdot twice now, this article contains more details about Robert T. Bigelow's plan to orbit massive inflatable space habitats, with the first test modules to be launched next year. It also details the $50 million "America's Space Prize", with the objective to "spur development of a low-cost commercial manned orbital vehicle capable of launching 5-7 astronauts at a time to Bigelow inflatable modules by the end of the decade.""

52 of 190 comments (clear)

  1. Xanadu by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's kind of cool to see this idea come to fruition. I'm sure that every child has gone through one of those inflatable castles and wondered what it would be like to have an inflatable house. I myself have often wondered if houses on other planets could be constructed in a manner similar to the late Xanadu. Just inflate the basic structure with just high enough PSI to make it rigid, then spray foam all over it. Allow the structure to cure, and you've got yourself air-tight, super-strong walls that can be repaired from pretty much any damage just by spraying more foam!

    Something to think about, anyway.

    1. Re:Xanadu by StalinsNotDead · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's this, too. The guy does pretty much what you describe but adds some kind of metal infrastructure as well. The structure of this type that was up in the panhandle of Florida through a hurricane fared remarkably well.

      --
      Thanks to the internet, we can now all die alone together! -SomeWoman
    2. Re:Xanadu by SDEggbert · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Just inflate the basic structure with just high enough PSI to make it rigid, then spray foam all over it. Allow the structure to cure, and you've got yourself air-tight, super-strong walls "

      Then re-use the air...

    3. Re:Xanadu by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 4, Informative
      Allow the structure to cure, and you've got yourself air-tight, super-strong walls that can be repaired from pretty much any damage just by spraying more foam!

      You can start to get respect for these inflatable structures when you realise that normal atmospheric pressure is just about 10 *tonnes* per square meter.

      These structures seem to be made from a woven kevlar material.

      They also have to be able to survive impact from debris in LEO and micrometeors without simply popping.

      --

      -WolfWithoutAClause

      "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
    4. Re:Xanadu by hernick · · Score: 2, Informative

      http://www.monolithic.com/ has already constructed many inhabitable earthly structures using this technology.

      They inflate a large plastic dome, and then they start building - from the inside. They first spray 3 feet of polyurethane, which provides excellent insulation. They use the polyurethane as a support for an inner shell of steel reinforcement bars. Once the bars are in place, they spray 3 feet of concrete.

      So, by building from the outside in, they can keep building no matter what the outside temperature is. The plastic dome that gives shape to the structure remains as the outer skin. The building has the strength and thermal capacity of concrete, the incredible insulation of polyurethane, and has the strongest shape known to man.

      This is better than geodesic domes. A bit more expensive, though.

    5. Re:Xanadu by jfdawes · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can start to get respect for these inflatable structures when you realise that normal atmospheric pressure is just about 10 *tonnes* per square meter.


      No, you can't.

      10 tonnes per square meter =
      22,046 pounds per square meter =
      22,046 pounds per 1550 square inches =
      About 14.2 psi.

      You can exert more pressure with your little finger.

      FTA: The ISS is pressurized to 14.7 psi. Skylab was 12. These inflatable things are going to be about 10.
    6. Re:Xanadu by Pigbot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But how does it fair against micro meteorites? I can see it doing fine under most circumstances, but there are some very fast, very small rocks in space that can fly through a foot of concrete. Even the space shuttle gets them embedded in the glass of the windshield, and we are talking the best glass money can buy.

      Unless they use some kind of technology like "seal a flat" in the walls, I can't help but to wonder if the idea is really all that feasible.

      --
      print "Oink!\n" if ( $tail =~ "pull" );
  2. Damn... by grub · · Score: 4, Funny


    I'd love to see the "Trojan Condom" logo on that thing. Talk about great product placement.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
    1. Re:Damn... by elementus · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's all good til they have a hole in one of them. Then guess which company's condom's aren't going to be bought as much.

      --
      Bad karma for correcting people I always say.
  3. Fools! by American+AC+in+Paris · · Score: 5, Funny

    Inflatable space modules are all well and good--until The Terrorists(tm) develop a gigantic space pin!

    --

    Obliteracy: Words with explosions

    1. Re:Fools! by Timesprout · · Score: 5, Funny

      US officials believe terrorist WMD programs have already developed a more advanced version of the gigantic space pin, called the gigantic space needle and that it is hidden in a giantic haystack somewhere in Iraq.

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
    2. Re:Fools! by StalinsNotDead · · Score: 4, Funny

      terrorist WMD programs have already developed a more advanced version of the gigantic space pin, called the gigantic space needle

      Oh No, they already got it into Seattle!! We're all doomed!!

      --
      Thanks to the internet, we can now all die alone together! -SomeWoman
  4. The biggest challenge by Pi_0's+don't+shower · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I would love to see someone take on the biggest challenge, articulated nicely here in the article:
    The new contest also presents challenges far greater than the X Prize by requiring development of a vehicle that could maneuver to dock at well over 100 mi. altitude and survive a 17,500-mph. reentry.
    The big problem, in addition to getting enough thrust to get up to that speed (and into a stable orbit), is how to get down! Ever climb a tree so high that you couldn't figure out how to get down? The analogy is much worse in outer space. The whole idea is, you have an atmosphere that you'll be blasting through at that speed, 17,500 mph or so, and you need some way to decelerate and deal with the heat... good luck to those going ahead with this...
    1. Re:The biggest challenge by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We discussed a possible solution just a few days ago. The only thing I didn't mention is that the Falcon V would be a good alternative choice for launch vehicle. Especially given how much Boeings prices tend to fluctuate upward for newcomers.

    2. Re:The biggest challenge by Jormundgandr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is not such a big problem. People have been doing it successfully for 50 years. The early orbiters didn't even use fancy-schmancy ceramic tiles to keep them safe, they just used tough heat-resistant ablatives to protect the soft, delicious astronauts inside.

      As for the deceleration, all that atmosphere tends to help, especially when you deploy parachutes ;)

      Seriously, you make it sound as if inventing a wheel would be impossible today, because small-time inventors don't have the massive government funding those 10,000 b.c. technicians did.

      --
      -sig removed for tax purposes-
    3. Re:The biggest challenge by gomiam · · Score: 3, Funny
      Ever climb a tree so high that you couldn't figure out how to get down?

      Yup. Still there.

      (Note to self: do not climb to trees looking for better WiFi access)

    4. Re:The biggest challenge by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Did you read my response? A Big Gemini capsule could easily meet the requirements. Especially on the reentry part. All that's needed is a classic epoxy/silicon heat shield, then the parawing for landing. On the ground the heat shield would be peeled off and replaced, the parawing repacked, and the capsule would be ready for relaunch.

    5. Re:The biggest challenge by sbeitzel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Now, why can't you use thrusters to decelerate to 0mph and then just get 'pulled in' by gravity?

      Well, what are you going to be pushing out of those thrusters? The really basic problem with space travel is that we like to think of it like terrestrial travel: we want to be able to make big changes in velocity over short periods of time. The problem is that in space, there's not a lot of stuff to grab onto and throw around. About the only thing you've got lots of is light, but photons aren't very massive, so solar sails take a long time to effect a large delta-vee.

      So, there's not a lot of stuff lying around. So, bring some with you! Except, for each ton of stuff you bring up the gravity well, you have to throw away several tons in the process (check out the relative size of the space shuttle and the liquid fuel tank and solid rocket boosters it uses to get up into orbit). Those extra tons of propellant translate directly into dollars, and that's what makes it expensive to get up there and then come back.

      This is why people are constantly looking for a way to get stuff up into LEO without burning up lots and lots of propellant. Space elevators, balloons, high-altitude airplane launches...

      --
      Oh, go on, check out my job.
  5. The next logical step by L.+VeGas · · Score: 3, Funny

    Line the floor with multicolored plastic balls, and we have a perfect place to keep our space toddlers.

    1. Re:The next logical step by wertarbyte · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In a Zero-G environment, where is your floor?

      --
      Life is just nature's way of keeping meat fresh.
    2. Re:The next logical step by jcr · · Score: 3, Informative

      The enemy's door is down! Duh!

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  6. and finally... by Blue-Footed+Boobie · · Score: 3, Funny

    An austronaut gets to yell "Hey NASA, BLOW ME!" and not get nasty looks...

    --
    DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
  7. Physical Concerns? by waldoj · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Can anybody explain what, if any, physical concerns exist with the use of an inflatable bladder in space? I can't quite envision how an inflatable object would behave in zero-G (perhaps just like any other object?), but in a vacuum, presumably explosion would be quite a difficult problem. Obviously, they've thought this through, but if somebody could explain the challenge of the proposition, I'd love to hear it.

    I only know enough about this to know that I don't know enough about it.

    -Waldo Jaquith

    1. Re:Physical Concerns? by wetlettuce · · Score: 2, Informative

      I can't quite envision how an inflatable object would behave in zero-G (perhaps just like any other object?), but in a vacuum, presumably explosion would be quite a difficult problem.

      Zero-G doesn't matter in this case. Think about when you blow up a ballon, this air pressure inside is greater than outside, it's same in space just the pressure can be much lower to maintian the shape. They probably keep it around normal atmospheric pressure the comfort of the astronauts.

      Make you wonder though, when you pop a ballon with a pin it goes bang...

    2. Re:Physical Concerns? by onkelonkel · · Score: 4, Informative

      If (big if) you inflate to sea level air pressure you need to contain 15 psi. Not a big deal. A bike tire can take up to 100 psi, a plastic 2l coke bottle can take over 150 psi. Make the habitat B I G and it will hold a lot of air. If something pops a hole in it, it will take a long time (many minutes) to deflate. Somebody will have to put down their beer, float over to the hole and slap on a peel-n-stick patch.

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    3. Re:Physical Concerns? by MooseByte · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I can't quite envision how an inflatable object would behave in zero-G."

      I can guarantee Larry Flynt will provide the answer in an exlusive photo spread. ;-)

      Seriously though, it will behave the same as any other object.

      " but in a vacuum, presumably explosion would be quite a difficult problem."

      Not with the proper materials and a good compartmentalized design. Try not to think of it like a birthday balloon. Completely different stuff.

    4. Re:Physical Concerns? by cmowire · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just like any other object, in both cases.

      A ballon is a few PSI of pressure higher than the surrounding atmosphere. A inflatable space module is 14.7 PSI higher than the surrounding atmosphere.

      All space modules need to deal with being inflated at 14.7 PSI. It's just that the whole point of the inflatable space module, like the older Atlas boosters, are designed such that they work *with* the overpresure instead of working against it.

      The main problem is if you leak out all of your atmosphere, it won't stay inflated. But generally, it not staying inflated is the least of your problems.

    5. Re:Physical Concerns? by heptapod · · Score: 4, Informative

      The only reason why a balloon goes bang when you pop it with a pin is because the rubber rips and the air is violently released. If you put a piece of scotch tape over an inflated balloon and insert a pin you'll see that the balloon didn't pop but there's a hole. The tape reinforced the balloon and kept the rubber from tearing apart.
      These inflatable habitats would simply leak air. There wouldn't be any Hollywood gratifying explosions.

  8. Space Junk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I hope all the floating space junk/garbage out there in orbit doesn't puncture the module. Maybe they could develop a way to have the side instantly fill the hole with a hardening substance and stop the leak quickly. I think there are automobile tires that do that now...?

    1. Re:Space Junk by cmowire · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You are thinking that the walls will be like a rubber ballon.

      The walls will be thick enough to provide the same level of orbital debris protection as existing space station modules. Remember, the Atlas booster had aluminum ballon fuel tanks -- it would actually collapse if the tanks were empty. When other engineers were suggesting it would never fly, they presurized it and gave them a sledgehammer to try to break the booster.

      It rebounded and almost hurt the engineer swinging the hammer.

      The instant-fill holes are harder than you'd think. Instant-fill tire stuff is designed to work in an atmosphere that you aren't breathing.

  9. Micrometeoroids Much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm sure it's being addressed but the first thing I think of is the effects of micrometeoroid impacts on whatever skin they're using. Then I wonder about the effects of extreme temperature gradients on the skin. I'm sure rapid decompression of the "air bladder" should the skin be pierced has been considered as well.

    Pardon me if I seem a bit old-fashioned but I'll wait for the answers/results of these questions before I would invest any more time or money into this.

    If it can be done, super! It sounds like it could be an interesting marvel.. if they can pull it off.

    fms,chi

    1. Re:Micrometeoroids Much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      RTFM. From the article:

      Covering the straps will be a five-layer micrometorite shield constructed in part of carbon-fiber composites, but using a less costly design than similar NASA shields. The module will have a total of seven layers with the interior inflated to 10 psi. compared with 14.7 psi. for the ISS and 12 psi. for the 1970s Skylab space station.

      More than 50 ballistics tests at the University of Dayton Research Institute and the University of Denver Research Institute were devoted to firing particles of 0.25-5/8 in. toward the Bigelow shield at velocities from about 1.9-4.3 mi./sec.

      "The tests showed we have a shield that performs comparably to NASA's, but at a fraction of the cost," says Brian Aiken, the overall Bigelow program manager. Aiken has extensive experience in satellite design, mostly on military spacecraft at TRW (now Northrop Grumman).

    2. Re:Micrometeoroids Much? by jbeaupre · · Score: 5, Informative

      Those micrometeoroids piercing the skin isn't too bad for the bubble. Just a small hole. It's the people and equipment inside that will hate getting sprayed with debris. The way they take care of it on space stations is to create bumpers. An outer shell takes the initial impact. The meteoroid punches through, but shatters and vaporizes, spreading in a plume. The second layer then gets to absorb a reduced impact over a greater area. There's more to it, but that's the basics. To protect an inflatable habitate, it might require a double-bubble, like the Zorb http://www.zorb.com/. Inflate the outer bubble at far less than 1 atm and let it take the punctures. Still have to fix the leaks, but they will be far slower. The inner bubble will be unpunctured.

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
  10. No terrorists needed by Linux_ho · · Score: 3, Funny

    All it will take is "Someone Like Larry." They will have to put up signs everywhere: "No playing darts in inflatable space habitat" "Soccer cleats will be confiscated" "DO NOT RUN WITH SCISSORS"

    --
    include $sig;
    1;
  11. These are not fragile by mrright · · Score: 5, Informative

    With all the needle jokes and condom comparisons one could get the impression that these inflatable modules are less rugged than the aluminium modules now used for the ISS.

    This is not the case. They are made out of multiple layers of kevlar (the same stuff that bulletproof vests are made of). In tests with the NASA-designed transhab inflatable module they have proven to be much more resistant to space debris than aluminium hulls.

    Also even if a particulary large piece of space debris should punch a hole in one of these modules, they are so big that there would be plenty of time to evacuate them before the pressure drops too much. A long-time station will probably also have a repair kit on board.

    Third, the problem of space debris is particulary severe in low earth orbit. But in a higher earth orbit there is much less space debris, and the stuff that is there moves with much lower relative velocities. So from a space debris point of view low earth orbit is the absolute worst case. A station at an Earth/Moon lagrange point or in deep space would need little or no space debris protection.

    --
    Private property is the central institution of a free society (David Friedman)
    1. Re:These are not fragile by scowling · · Score: 3, Informative

      Wrong. Here are two examples:

      http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/rocket_sci/ or bmech/vel_calc.html

      http://www.solarsystem.org.uk/datatext.html

      --
      www.kitchengeek.com -- Nosh for
  12. Just like everything else.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...this new frontier of commercial space flights and doing stuff in near space will just lead to one industry taking a lead and pushing the cutting edge while others sit by watching.

    Let's face it, within 5 years there could be space hookers. All the really rich lonely people will push this endeavor.

    Which just begs the question, who will be the premier space pimp? Who will be the Lando Calrission in the next 5 years?

    1. Re:Just like everything else.... by deathcloset · · Score: 2, Funny

      This begs the next question, when will the first space pr0n be made?

      it's a valid question.

      We're all intrigued by the behaviour of fluids in zero G, DONT ACT LIKE YOU'RE NOT!

  13. Baloonish by john_anderson_ii · · Score: 5, Funny

    I just can't picture one of these space balloons without thinking about one end coming loose, and the whole thing blasting crazily about in space while making a ridiculously load farting noise.

    --
    Be Safe! Sleep with a Marine. Semper Fi!
  14. Rip-stop is the key to puncture resistance by G4from128k · · Score: 2, Informative

    All inhabited spacecraft are inflated structures and all are prone to punctures. In space, you can't easily prevent the puncture (even aluminum capsules have some risk), but what happens next determines the survival of the crew. If the puncture just leaves a pinhole, then all that's needed is a patch. If the hole leads to a larger tear, then death soon ensues. This problem is not unique to space as a jet airliner is just a big balloon that will pop if poorly designed or maintained.

    Materials such as rip-stop nylon use strong threads at crossing angles to prevent propagation of a hole or tear. The same principle could be used in inflatable spacecraft to limit the scope of an puncture damage. The interlacing threads would limit the damage to one or a few cells of the structural material.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
  15. Re:Amazingly by ackthpt · · Score: 2, Funny
    They're always shaped like giant breasts.

    This must be an enormous disappointment to MegaMaid, I'm sure she would have had something else in mind.

    'She's gone from suck to blow'

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  16. Re:Safe Space? by cmowire · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's not plastic.

    It's Kevlar fiber, generally, along with a variety of other materials, all of which have been tested in space or are currently on the space station. Just because a cheap injection-molded plastic toy breaks easily doesn't mean that all non-metallic materials are easily broken.

    They've already worked the water supply angle out there. It depends on the project. The Transhab had the water supply going down the center, so you could stay in the shadow of it during radiation events.

    Leakproofing is one of the problems they solve to make it all work. Just because a cheap rubber balloon can't hold pressure for years on end doesn't mean that all non-metallic materials have leaks.

  17. BTW... by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Informative

    ...the exact opposite of an inflatable space station, is a skin tight space-suit! If we could develop that technology, space walks could become as easy as diving! (If not a smidge easier.)

  18. Not just for space stations by kippy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This could also be used for interplanetary craft.

    Imagine launching to Mars. Even if you launch in a tuna can ala Zubrin, it's still pretty confined. If you launch in an un -nflated balloon, accelerate and get pointed at Mars, you can inflate and have twice or three times the living space. As long are you're willing to be confined for a few hours at first, the place could be quite roomy and more people could be sent per trip as long as provisions are increased.

    Just a thought.

  19. Good for the amoonsement park maybe... by DrKyle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A lot has been said about the fears of preventing the inflatable capsules from being punctured, but the article states that they don't even have the solution to sealing them properly yet. The Bigelow team is also developing how to fold and package those soft goods around the module's aluminum core, so once inflated in space, creases and folds and critical seals around windows and hatches do not leak. Plus, and I'm not physicist, but isn't it cold in space? And doesn't gas pressure drop when it gets cold? Are these things to be inflated with liquid nitrogen and oxygen? This site http://www.faqs.org/faqs/astronomy/faq/part4/secti on-14.html leads me to believe that if you were on the sunny side of Earth things would be ok, but go into a shadow and whoops, there goes the inflation.

  20. Re:Amazingly by ackthpt · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Getting back onto topic, I wonder what sort of materials something like this would be made out of, it seems like something without rigidity would be more susceptible to micrometeorite punctures?

    At the velocity anything is moving foam rubber or carbon fibre would be the same thing. After what a paint chip did to sone of the shuttle windows (what, 8" of layered safety glass?) I'd be more worried about larger bits and how to disperse their kinetic energy rather than try to put something rigid in the path (keep in mind, if it's facing away from the Sun it could have a very low surface temperature, thus more brittle.)

    Maybe like one beachball inside another beachball with a layer of sand between...

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  21. First, Inflatable Reentry Vehicles, now this... by wernst · · Score: 2, Informative
    Slashdot JUST covered the Inflatable Reentry Vehicles story on September 3, so its nice to see that people are thinking of inflatable items to cover the whole trip.

    Incidentally, those wacky Russians did a test of this thing's ability to survive reentry and it seemed to to pretty ok. Check it out.

  22. What the America Space Prize is not by Kris+Magnusson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    These inflatable modules are cool and everything, but I'm much more interested in the America Space Prize than the modules.

    I was hoping that one of the criteria for the contest was that the entire spacecraft, not just the crew module, would be reusable. As far as I can tell, the winning entry will be launched on a traditional throwaway booster. Given this, it will cost you half a mil to fly to a Bigelow Inflatable Hotel for a week of fun in space, hardly an affordable price.

    It seems, therefore, the America Space Prize is not about tourism but competing directly with NASA for space science money. Not necessarily bad, but not as exciting as seeing the frontier of affordable LEO space tourism open up.

    --
    "I thought I could organize freedom. How Scandinavian of me."
  23. Re:Safe Space? by Rolo+Tomasi · · Score: 2, Interesting
    That's what came to my mind first, too. They tout this as a means for building lunar and mars bases. Now, they say they have a new shielding technology. Maybe it's really good and keeps out high energy photons and particles. What remains are the neutrons. To shield these, there are basically two ways: thick layers of either water or solid rock.

    IMHO the only viable way to build a habitat where people are supposed to live for an extended period of time (i.e. years) is underground.

    Might work as a cheap way to build big LEO (below the Van Allen belt) space stations though ...

    --
    Did you know you can fertilize your lawn with used motor oil?
  24. Nuclear Rockets! by serutan · · Score: 4, Informative

    Check out this fascinating detailed design for a completely reusable Saturn-V size rocket, powered by a Gas Core Nuclear Reactor engine. The engine emits non-radioactive hydrogen propellant. The rocket described would be able to lift 1000 tons of cargo into orbit and return to a powered landing, for only 5% of today's cost per pound.

    I know "nuclear" is still a dirty word, but the gas core reactor design is a completely different approach than a big pile of plutonium. Very promising in terms of power, safety and cost.

    It's a long article, 14 parts, but well worth reading. Skip the first 5 or 6 sections if you just want to know how the thing works.

  25. How about massive foam filled fly-paper by IBitOBear · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So I was thinking, once we get the massive inflatable technology under our belt, we could probably manage to make these really really really big balons that self-fill with energy-disapating foam once in orbit. (Think styrofoam, you know basically rigid once set-up.)

    These things could be set on orbits "just slightly different" than those that were "known " to contain the the smaller space debris.

    Since the mass of the balons would be relatively low, we would know when impacts took place.

    So by deliberately intersecting the orbits of this stuff we would accumulate it in the rigid foam. The outer structure would be pierced, but by then it would only be strapping on the foam mass to keep *it* from disintegrating.

    Over time, in a low orbit, the orbit would decay and the big foam ball would have a nice energetic reentry, bolts, wrenches, gasgets, and all.

    In high orbits, the thing could be retrieved.

    If the thing were in a retrograde (backwards from all the normal orbits) it wouldn't necessarily even have to capture the debris. A little momentum would be exchanged and both objects would fall to lower orbits.

    And it would look good from the "big rubber hilton across the way" 8-)

    --
    Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
    --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
  26. Space Hoppers by skinfitz · · Score: 2, Funny

    I just hope the original designer of the Space Hopper is alive to see this.

    I can just picture him now as some crazy old guy who keeps shouting "I told you so! I told you so! See? Nobody believed Old Crazy Jim when he said .." etc.