Slashdot Mirror
Car With A Mind Of Its Own -- Part 2
An anonymous reader writes "As a sequel to the previous Slashdot story where a car 'began accelerating to 120 mph on its own', Renault (the car manufacturer) has examined the supposed faulty car, and as many of us have suspected, no anomaly has been found (google translation). Renault will initiate a court action to discover the truth about the matter. Read more about it here (translation)."
Was the name of the car KIT? :)
No anomaly found? Of course not. This guy is full of shit, plain and simple. A similar problem almost put Audi out of business in the 80's because of a "story" on 60 Minutes. These people were just as full of shit as this guy.
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How many people actually know someone that is a competent driver that has had this happen?
Linky to the Audi story here (google's first result): http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy
Anyone remember the Audi disputes in the 80's where people kept claiming they randomly accelerated when the brakes were appled? I think it turned out that the accelerator and brake were too close together and people were hitting the gas pedal instead of the brake.
This way to the egress...
This is a fancy way of saying "The guy is lying".
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
In Holland we had a similar case, a drunk driver who killed a pedestrian in a parking garage (while driving drunk) claimed his cruise control malfunctioned and he couldn't stop the car.
Whenever people need to lie to protect themselves, they'll try to blame something they don't understand, expecting that the recipient of the story will not understand the stuff either, and thus believe them.
Ofcourse this is rather stupid, but it's just the way people are wired.
Oh great, a car going on rampage. As if drunken and irresponsible humans didn't make the streets unsafe enough already.
Do you expect that if he was making it up he would have offered to have the car inspected by the auto maker? He could have taken it right down to his local mechanic.
The quicker they can cover it up the better, or in this case maybe burry it in the court system? Talk about a recall to end recalls.
Just my 2cents.
She escaped with only burned out brake calipers.
The fault was a bit of grit or buildup preventing the throttle from closing properly.
Keep your air filter clean and don't buy junk gas.
...the power of one lying bastard when given media attention. Once upon a time, when I was young and foolish, my best friend and I contrieved a scheme to get out of a speeding ticket. We figured that if we were caught roaring past a speed trap, we could just continue, and call 911 to get them to clear the road. Then we could get to a safe area, spin out in a huge cloud of dust and praise be to god, we'd be OK. Of course, this would hinge on us being able to convice the cops and investigators, that we weren't actually maniacs. Like I said, when I was young and foolish.
...doesn't mean there wasn't a problem. Anybody remember the Therac-25 radiation machine? After a few incidents it was examined and the first couple of times no fault was found. However, after much closer inspection they found that under just the right circumstances, if things were done in just the right order, bad things would happen. And this is a Renault we're talking about.
Of course, I still think it was user error...
There is clearly nothing wrong with the vehicle. Anyway, how could the company that brought you LeCar ever do wrong?
If you remember that Airbus that crashed at an airshow a few years back when it's Die-By-Wire flight-controls refused to give the pilot TOGA power.
That accident was put down to pilot-error by Airbus and the French (Government) Investigators. The case has now been re-opened on the merit that the CVR and FDR data seems to have been played with.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
Every full moon my friend lives in fear of his life as his Were-car tries to kill him.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
FYI, from their media site:
After one of its vehicles is incriminated
RENAULT TAKES LEGAL ACTION
Under the control of an independent court-authorized expert appointed by Renault and with the
consent of the customer, Renault evaluated the Renault Vel Satis 3L Dci automatic, registration
number 218 TH 18, in static and dynamic conditions on Wednesday October 6.
According to the driver's comments as reported in the media, the car was jammed at high speed
on the A71 motorway on Sunday October 3, due to a faulty cruise control. The driver reportedly
said that it was impossible for him to stop the car after trying different possibilities for almost an
hour.
The evaluation covered all the vehicle's electronic, mechanical and hydraulic functions. The
data collected and the facts as established reveal no malfunction. The braking system, which
shows no sign of abnormal wear, the gearbox control, the powertrain and the cruise control all
worked perfectly. A full detailed report is expected very shortly.
Given the findings of the evaluation and its concern about the impact this incident might have on
its product image, Renault has decided to take legal action in the form of a summary
proceeding, without prejudice to other actions taken in compensation for any damage suffered
by the company.
DOUGAL: Can I stay up tonight to watch the scary film?
TED: Ah, no no no. The last time you stayed up to watch a scary film, you ended up having to sleep in my bed. I wouldn't mind, but it wasn't even a scary film.
DOUGAL: Come on, Ted. A Volkswagen with a mind of its own. Driving all over the place and going mad. If that isn't scary, I don't know what is.
Your statement has the same weight as Irwin Fletcher saying "Its all ball bearings these days."
Throttle by wire - a couple of companies
Brake by wire - none
Steering by wire - none
Why? If the first one fails, the engine dies. If the second 2 fail, you die. Some carmakers are experimenting with it, but none have brought to production.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
Anxiety \Anx*i"e*ty\ - n ; finding yourself behind a pinto and in front of an Audi 5000
I seem to remember reading an AutoWeek article about 2 years ago about the time that DaimlerChrysler's Jeep divison introduced the Jeep Liberty small SUV.
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I opened my mail, and I saw this full page cover photo on this weekly auto magazine showing a Jeep Liberty tipping over during a slalom test. An inset picture showed the friggin' car flipped over on its side, if I remember correctly. I'm posting from work, so read for yourself:
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=333
Turns out, AutoWeek testers were doing their standard lane change avoidance/slalom test that they do with everything from Hyundais to GMC Yukons. I'm pretty sure it was a production Jeep Liberty -- nothing pre-production -- that flipped over twice (???) and landed on its side during this relatively commonplace automotive review test.
The driver, thankfully, only suffered a sore neck (nearly broke it, if it had rolled one more time), and AutoWeek devoted their entire issue to this vehicle which had been designed to put an affordable small SUV Jeep into the hands of consumers.
DaimlerChrysler balked and basically claimed that THE TEST WAS NOT A REAL WORLD TEST. AutoWeek called bullshit and basically said, "Uh, yeah it is -- if a driver has to make a quick lane change and or dodge something in the road, it's as real world as it gets."
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=416
I seem to remember that DaimlerChrysler continued to balk at the test, but in fact they ended up making center of gravity changes to the vehicle (suspension and ride height, perhaps?) over the course of the next model year.
Sounds like the same crap that Renault is doing here.
It's funny -- the automotive press gets touted all the time when they LOVE a car and try and hype up the manufacturers' products, but heaven forbid that they also try and save the manufacturer a little legal trouble by finding out these sorts of dangerous rollover issues and what not in pre-production cars. Only the GOOD NEWS, right? Bullshit.
IronChefMorimoto
I bet the cruise control has a hidden program to accelerate constantly when Sammy Hagar's "I Can't Drive 55" comes on over the speakers.
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
What is there to find? If there was a bug in some of the software on the car computers how would they find it since it's probably in every other Renault?
"This car is exactly like all the other ones - no anomolies, nothing broken - it's fine."
Chances are the computer would have auto reset like most do and any chance of software evidence being left is gone.
This is why cars should have black boxes.
WTF, even if the brake pedal (hello, aren't we still on hydraulic brakes???) wouldn't stop the car, couldn't he have shifted it into neutral?
I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't let you do that
Something similar happened to me but with my computer instead of with my car. I was attempting to use my computer in a responsible manner when all of a sudden it decided to download porn incessantly. In my panic I didn't think of pulling the power cord, and I had to download porn for many hours.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
That model probably hasn't the usual lever but two buttons on the steering wheel, and, you guessed it, the gearbox is electrically actuated with an electronic control.
BTW, the hand brake is also electrically actuated. I know it because on a Renault Scenic I got stuck in the rush hour because the main fuse blew. Of course the manual override is in the boot, and the boot has no mechanical way to open it, only elecrical, so it was impossible to open.
BTW2 the speed control has at least a bug: while the nominal increment is 2Km/h (i.e. you can preset 30, 32, 34 and so on) under some circumstances (i.e. not always) it wouldn't let you set the speed at 50Km/h: it's either 48 or 52.
Due to these facts I tend to believe the guy more than Renault.
Yeah I'm not ready to call this guy a liar yet either.
Car's are increasingly drive by wire nowadays. My 2004 Mazda3 has 100% electronic throttle control, there is no mechanical link between the gas pedal and the throttle body. Also my power steering fails if the engine isn't running, even if the engine is still turning (i.e. coasing down a long hill in gear with the ignition off).
Some new luxury cars will start and drive with the ignition key only in the proximity of the ignition, this Renault may have that feature as well. Throw in an electrnically controlled clutchless transmission, wither it be SMG, CVT or electronic auto and I'm willing to entertain that his car could have had the Renault equivalent of a BSOD and sent the throttle to 100% to stay.
Now if there really isn't signs of significant wear on the brakes that certianly discredits his story. Hitting the brakes hard at 120 would definitely do some damage to the pads/rotors. Or maybe he just didn't have the balls to stomp on the brakes when they weren't working as well as he wanted.
Throttle by wire - a couple of companies
Just to give an example, it may be more than just "a couple of companies".
I drive a compact VW with a 1-liter, 16-valve engine, and it is "throttle by wire". That's an economy car, mind you.
I had if fail on me a few times when new, the dealer would never figure out the problem, they would see some strange conditions logged on the CPU, hard-reset the whole thing and it would not happen for a few days.
After the third visit to the shop they finally replaced the whole control unit and I never had another problem with that car since (had it for 2.5 years not)
ABS is essentially brake-by-wire. If the black box decides it doesn't want pressure at the slave cylinders, the driver is just along for the ride.
I do not know about other ABS systems, but in my vehicles if the ABS fails the power brakes still work. I had my ABS malfunction in one vehicle and the brakes worked like normal. In my experience, ABS modules are very fail-safe and I have never heard of one taking the driver along for the ride. Maybe you have, I am not saying you are wrong, just that I have not heard of that before.
24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
Try taking a look underneath a Z4 sometime. "Electric power steering" refers only to the system that is providing the BOOST to the steering effort. The actual connection between the steering wheel and the tie rods that turn the wheels is EXACTLY THE SAME as any other mechanical steering system...either a recirculating ball or rack-n-pinion system.
The ONLY difference here is that the boost is provided electrically rather than hydraulically. Your example is "steering boost by wire", NOT "steer by wire".
Could someone please point out to me where in the Constitution, exactly, is the "Right To Not Be Offended"?
That might have been unexpected, but it's seldom lethal. Your car will drive just fine without any power steering fluid (assuming you don't burn out the pump and innards of course), as that is how all cars used to be.
If you'd accelerated a little bit, you'd have noticed it got easier to turn, as the tires have less constant contact with the ground.
Basically, the point I'm making is that if power steering fails, it's a little harder to turn. If steering-by-wire fails, the car DOES NOT turn at all, and you die. Granted, I'm sure that there would be some sort of failover in place before it was ever actually implemented, but that's the difference.
Having to put some muscle into it is a whole lot better than the wheel spinning freely with no effect.
-9mm-
Actually, it's not the sudden opening of the throttle that would result in unburned fuel.
In the old school carb, if the throttle (a simple metal plate) opens wide rapidly, it will result in greatly increased airflow without much of an increase in fuel flow - and the engine will tend to 'lean cut' - not enough fuel and far too much air for combustion.
The solution to that was to add accelerator pumps to the carb. When the driver boots the throttle, the mechanical linkage also activates one or more accelerator pumps which squirt a bunch of additional fuel into the mix. Naturally, this isn't metered particularly accurately, but it'll ensure that the mixture is more or less right (probably well on the rich side) so the engine doesn't lean cut.
Modern electronic fuel injection is a completely different kettle of fish. Cars without pure throttle by wire will still meet requirements because the EFI system won't just dump a bunch of raw fuel into the incoming air like the accelerator pump, it'll be metered. In many cars, the linkage to the throttle butterfly is still just a cable - but pure throttle by wire (where the only connection between your right foot and the throttle body) is better still as when the engine control computer (known as a FADEC - Full Authority Digital Engine Control - in aviation) has control over the entire process instead of reacting to the throttle butterfly suddenly going wide open.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
A) They could have a bug that only comes out under particular cirumstances that weren't reached in the test.
We all know that.
B) It can take a long time to smoke out weird car problems. I had a problem with my steering lock engaging that wasn't correctly diagnosed for like two years because it was a very specific set of actions that caused it to happen. It eventually caused an accident; fortunately it just put me into a guard rail when I was making a turn. They didn't believe me until one of the mechanics was buzzing around the shop and it almost put him into the wall.
THEN they believed me.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
I've had my cruise control accelerate beyond its setting several times. Even had the logic module replaced twice to no effect.
I'll have braked to slow down for other traffic, then passed that traffic, and hit Resume. The car accelerates to the previously set cruising speed as normal, but then suddenly decides it has to go floor it to reach another, higher speed.
Tapping the brake pedal once has always disengaged it, and the one time when I had enough clear straight road to allow it to run (the technician that worked on it wanted the data), it would go up to 95 MPH, slow to 90, then back to 95, repeating. Probably a limitation in the vehicle that prevents it from going faster.
Unfortunately I have been unable to reproduce the behavior on demand, and I always wonder if it is going to go crazy again the next time I hit the Resume button. I'm thinking it must be some combination of the cruise controls used to adjust the cruising speed pressed long before the triggering event that primes the event.
The only way I'd accept a black box in my car would be to diagnose this problem and get it fixed, and then I'd have the black box removed.
Mine is a Honda Civic with aftermarket cruise control (not a standard option).
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
>> attempting to use my computer in a responsible manner when all of a sudden it decided to download porn
> To avoid that, never use Outlook, Outlook Express, or Internet Explorer.
Actually, several programs went crazy all at once: BitTorrent, Kazaa, eDonkey, GNUtella, even FTP! It was very scary that all of those applications could take over my computer for hours and hours the way they did. Even scarier was the way I was forced to sit and watch them the entire time.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat