Slashdot Mirror
Car With A Mind Of Its Own -- Part 2
An anonymous reader writes "As a sequel to the previous Slashdot story where a car 'began accelerating to 120 mph on its own', Renault (the car manufacturer) has examined the supposed faulty car, and as many of us have suspected, no anomaly has been found (google translation). Renault will initiate a court action to discover the truth about the matter. Read more about it here (translation)."
He just wanted to get to work on time.
Was the name of the car KIT? :)
No anomaly found? Of course not. This guy is full of shit, plain and simple. A similar problem almost put Audi out of business in the 80's because of a "story" on 60 Minutes. These people were just as full of shit as this guy.
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How many people actually know someone that is a competent driver that has had this happen?
Linky to the Audi story here (google's first result): http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy
Anyone remember the Audi disputes in the 80's where people kept claiming they randomly accelerated when the brakes were appled? I think it turned out that the accelerator and brake were too close together and people were hitting the gas pedal instead of the brake.
This way to the egress...
This is a fancy way of saying "The guy is lying".
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
In Holland we had a similar case, a drunk driver who killed a pedestrian in a parking garage (while driving drunk) claimed his cruise control malfunctioned and he couldn't stop the car.
Whenever people need to lie to protect themselves, they'll try to blame something they don't understand, expecting that the recipient of the story will not understand the stuff either, and thus believe them.
Ofcourse this is rather stupid, but it's just the way people are wired.
Oh great, a car going on rampage. As if drunken and irresponsible humans didn't make the streets unsafe enough already.
Do you expect that if he was making it up he would have offered to have the car inspected by the auto maker? He could have taken it right down to his local mechanic.
The quicker they can cover it up the better, or in this case maybe burry it in the court system? Talk about a recall to end recalls.
Just my 2cents.
She escaped with only burned out brake calipers.
The fault was a bit of grit or buildup preventing the throttle from closing properly.
Keep your air filter clean and don't buy junk gas.
...the power of one lying bastard when given media attention. Once upon a time, when I was young and foolish, my best friend and I contrieved a scheme to get out of a speeding ticket. We figured that if we were caught roaring past a speed trap, we could just continue, and call 911 to get them to clear the road. Then we could get to a safe area, spin out in a huge cloud of dust and praise be to god, we'd be OK. Of course, this would hinge on us being able to convice the cops and investigators, that we weren't actually maniacs. Like I said, when I was young and foolish.
...doesn't mean there wasn't a problem. Anybody remember the Therac-25 radiation machine? After a few incidents it was examined and the first couple of times no fault was found. However, after much closer inspection they found that under just the right circumstances, if things were done in just the right order, bad things would happen. And this is a Renault we're talking about.
Of course, I still think it was user error...
There is clearly nothing wrong with the vehicle. Anyway, how could the company that brought you LeCar ever do wrong?
It is possible that the gear shift is nothing more than an switch. Look at paddle shifters on many cars today... those are not directly linked to the transmission except by wire.
And like any normal person, I put it in neutral and turned the ignition off...
This sig is in Spanish when you're not looking....
granted credibility of the driver doesn't seem to be the greatest...
but should the manufacturor really inspect their own vehicle?
if they found something that could cost them billions in lawsuits, then well, naturally they would say "oh there's nothing wrong--case closed!".
-judging another only defines yourself
If you remember that Airbus that crashed at an airshow a few years back when it's Die-By-Wire flight-controls refused to give the pilot TOGA power.
That accident was put down to pilot-error by Airbus and the French (Government) Investigators. The case has now been re-opened on the merit that the CVR and FDR data seems to have been played with.
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
Every full moon my friend lives in fear of his life as his Were-car tries to kill him.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
FYI, from their media site:
After one of its vehicles is incriminated
RENAULT TAKES LEGAL ACTION
Under the control of an independent court-authorized expert appointed by Renault and with the
consent of the customer, Renault evaluated the Renault Vel Satis 3L Dci automatic, registration
number 218 TH 18, in static and dynamic conditions on Wednesday October 6.
According to the driver's comments as reported in the media, the car was jammed at high speed
on the A71 motorway on Sunday October 3, due to a faulty cruise control. The driver reportedly
said that it was impossible for him to stop the car after trying different possibilities for almost an
hour.
The evaluation covered all the vehicle's electronic, mechanical and hydraulic functions. The
data collected and the facts as established reveal no malfunction. The braking system, which
shows no sign of abnormal wear, the gearbox control, the powertrain and the cruise control all
worked perfectly. A full detailed report is expected very shortly.
Given the findings of the evaluation and its concern about the impact this incident might have on
its product image, Renault has decided to take legal action in the form of a summary
proceeding, without prejudice to other actions taken in compensation for any damage suffered
by the company.
DOUGAL: Can I stay up tonight to watch the scary film?
TED: Ah, no no no. The last time you stayed up to watch a scary film, you ended up having to sleep in my bed. I wouldn't mind, but it wasn't even a scary film.
DOUGAL: Come on, Ted. A Volkswagen with a mind of its own. Driving all over the place and going mad. If that isn't scary, I don't know what is.
Your statement has the same weight as Irwin Fletcher saying "Its all ball bearings these days."
Throttle by wire - a couple of companies
Brake by wire - none
Steering by wire - none
Why? If the first one fails, the engine dies. If the second 2 fail, you die. Some carmakers are experimenting with it, but none have brought to production.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
Anxiety \Anx*i"e*ty\ - n ; finding yourself behind a pinto and in front of an Audi 5000
I seem to remember reading an AutoWeek article about 2 years ago about the time that DaimlerChrysler's Jeep divison introduced the Jeep Liberty small SUV.
1
3
I opened my mail, and I saw this full page cover photo on this weekly auto magazine showing a Jeep Liberty tipping over during a slalom test. An inset picture showed the friggin' car flipped over on its side, if I remember correctly. I'm posting from work, so read for yourself:
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=333
Turns out, AutoWeek testers were doing their standard lane change avoidance/slalom test that they do with everything from Hyundais to GMC Yukons. I'm pretty sure it was a production Jeep Liberty -- nothing pre-production -- that flipped over twice (???) and landed on its side during this relatively commonplace automotive review test.
The driver, thankfully, only suffered a sore neck (nearly broke it, if it had rolled one more time), and AutoWeek devoted their entire issue to this vehicle which had been designed to put an affordable small SUV Jeep into the hands of consumers.
DaimlerChrysler balked and basically claimed that THE TEST WAS NOT A REAL WORLD TEST. AutoWeek called bullshit and basically said, "Uh, yeah it is -- if a driver has to make a quick lane change and or dodge something in the road, it's as real world as it gets."
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=416
I seem to remember that DaimlerChrysler continued to balk at the test, but in fact they ended up making center of gravity changes to the vehicle (suspension and ride height, perhaps?) over the course of the next model year.
Sounds like the same crap that Renault is doing here.
It's funny -- the automotive press gets touted all the time when they LOVE a car and try and hype up the manufacturers' products, but heaven forbid that they also try and save the manufacturer a little legal trouble by finding out these sorts of dangerous rollover issues and what not in pre-production cars. Only the GOOD NEWS, right? Bullshit.
IronChefMorimoto
I bet the cruise control has a hidden program to accelerate constantly when Sammy Hagar's "I Can't Drive 55" comes on over the speakers.
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
What is there to find? If there was a bug in some of the software on the car computers how would they find it since it's probably in every other Renault?
"This car is exactly like all the other ones - no anomolies, nothing broken - it's fine."
Chances are the computer would have auto reset like most do and any chance of software evidence being left is gone.
This is why cars should have black boxes.
WTF, even if the brake pedal (hello, aren't we still on hydraulic brakes???) wouldn't stop the car, couldn't he have shifted it into neutral?
I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't let you do that
Driving at that speed is not simply "reckless driving" in France. A few years ago it was upgraded from a simple offense to the crime of endangering other road users.
... speeding and driving under the influence.
Also, according to other articles (can't be bothered to find the URLs), the guy had just gotten his license back after having it suspended for
Brakes of a car can always overpower an engine, even at full throttle.
Very Very wrong.
breaking prolonged and at high speed will cause severe reduction in breaking power and even a LOSS of breaking power.
The mechanics of this decline and failure in the coefficient of friction are varied. At a certain temperature, certain elements of the pad can melt or smear causing a lubrication effect, this is the classic glazed brake pad. Usually the organic binder resin starts to go first, then even the metallic elements of the friction material can start to melt. At really high temperatures the friction material starts to vaporize and the pad can sort of hydroplane on a boundary layer of vaporized metal and friction material which acts like a lubricant.
so brakes not working in this instance is certianly a possibility.
and yes I said this last time. It amazes me how many people really do not realize how brakes work.
the only solution to avoid the above is 3 piston calipers and vented, finned and crossdrilled rotors. Even the most expensive cars do NOT have these performance features. The only car's I have seen them on were as an OPTION on Ferarri and the Corvette ZR1.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Something similar happened to me but with my computer instead of with my car. I was attempting to use my computer in a responsible manner when all of a sudden it decided to download porn incessantly. In my panic I didn't think of pulling the power cord, and I had to download porn for many hours.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
The Cruise control buttons (on, set, and resume) we beneath the 5 speed shifter and the computer remembered the last speed used even after the car was turned off and on.
One day, I decided to play a trick on my wife, because she hated the car. In the morning, I set the cruise at 110 mph. Later that day, we were on the Turnpike driving somewhere (she was driving) and I casually hit the resume button and the car acclerated at full throttle from 75-80 mph to over 100, with her freaking out the whole time.
I was actually quite surprised how much she freaked out. She's a very intellegent person and all she had to do was step on the brake or clutch, but she just flipped out as it accelerated.
On the way home I did the same thing and her reponse: to pull the car into neutral. I watched the engine spin to 9k rpms (quite rapidly). Not so good. At which point I freaked out and told her about the "trick."
In summary, I was very suprised that someone as intellegent as my wife completely lost it as the car accelerated, so I can easily see how others would react in this situation. Hiiting the breaks/clutch/etc... may not be easy for someone to comprehend at the time of unwanted acceleration.
Floor accelerator, then release to free throttle cable (won't work on throttle by wire, usually). If this doesn't work ...
Shift into neutral.
Apply service brake (or parking brake if service brakes fail) and GENTLY stop the car.
Do NOT turn off the key until you have stopped moving, as this will cause the steering column to lock.
Fortunately, I have only had my throttle stick once, about halfway, and I didn't have to go past step one. It was very cold weather and I imagine it could have been some ice in just the wrong spot.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
That model probably hasn't the usual lever but two buttons on the steering wheel, and, you guessed it, the gearbox is electrically actuated with an electronic control.
BTW, the hand brake is also electrically actuated. I know it because on a Renault Scenic I got stuck in the rush hour because the main fuse blew. Of course the manual override is in the boot, and the boot has no mechanical way to open it, only elecrical, so it was impossible to open.
BTW2 the speed control has at least a bug: while the nominal increment is 2Km/h (i.e. you can preset 30, 32, 34 and so on) under some circumstances (i.e. not always) it wouldn't let you set the speed at 50Km/h: it's either 48 or 52.
Due to these facts I tend to believe the guy more than Renault.
Growing up, my parents had a huge Chevy Caprice Classic two-door. Family trips were a blast with the runaway cruise control! Get on the interstate and set the cruise to 60-whatever MPH, then sit back and relax. Before long, you'd be doing 70, then 75, 80, and so on.
My dad was great. He'd look at me in the rear view mirror, wink, and quietly point to the speedometer. After a while, mom would say something like: "It seems like we're going kind-of fast. How fast are... [glances to dash] OH MY GOD! SLOW DOWN!!!" I love family vacations.
This one gang kept wanting me to join cause I'm pretty good with a bo staff.
"Renault decided to take action in justice in the form of a procedure of summary procedure which will lead in particular to a contradictory expertise, without damage of other actions in compensation for the damages that the company would have undergone", according to an official statement of the manufacturer.
Maybe they need a different spokesperson...
There's definitely truth to the phrase "lost in translation"...
"Truth is not decided by majority vote" consensus gentium -- Norman Geisler
Steer-by-wire is being used in some rear-steer apps. Keep that shit far away from me.
ABS is essentially brake-by-wire. If the black box decides it doesn't want pressure at the slave cylinders, the driver is just along for the ride.
Ahh the memories, My old Chevy Silverado used to have a short in the right blinker that would activate the cruise control. "Don't forget the turn signal" I would always remind my friends as we pass a car, their face would go white as gas pedal magically would drop to the floor.
Yeah I'm not ready to call this guy a liar yet either.
Car's are increasingly drive by wire nowadays. My 2004 Mazda3 has 100% electronic throttle control, there is no mechanical link between the gas pedal and the throttle body. Also my power steering fails if the engine isn't running, even if the engine is still turning (i.e. coasing down a long hill in gear with the ignition off).
Some new luxury cars will start and drive with the ignition key only in the proximity of the ignition, this Renault may have that feature as well. Throw in an electrnically controlled clutchless transmission, wither it be SMG, CVT or electronic auto and I'm willing to entertain that his car could have had the Renault equivalent of a BSOD and sent the throttle to 100% to stay.
Now if there really isn't signs of significant wear on the brakes that certianly discredits his story. Hitting the brakes hard at 120 would definitely do some damage to the pads/rotors. Or maybe he just didn't have the balls to stomp on the brakes when they weren't working as well as he wanted.
Throttle by wire's mostly about emissions control. It sits between your foot and the engine and it has the final say what happens to the fuel mixture. If you suddenly boot it, it won't just open the throttle wide like a mechanical throttle, as this would be liable to result in unburnt fuel, which plays hell with your catalytic converter. It'll do things in a slightly more controlled manner which you'll hardly even notice.
Steer-by-wire would mean you could eliminate all the complicated power-assisted steering mechanicals, I suppose, and thus make the car slightly more economical, and less prone to mechanical failure. Plus, to change the gearing of the system would be a matter of flicking a switch, so I suppose you could use the same component in different cars by changing the parameters, leading to economies of scale in the manufacturing. Of course, it would have no steering feel whatsoever, but Joe Public doesn't care, and doesn't seem to understand that feeling what's under your tyres can come in quite handy when trying to drive in adverse conditions.
considering that in a frontal collision, the steering column hitting the driver is a common cause of death, you have to wonder why this is a requirement...
Throttle by wire - a couple of companies
Just to give an example, it may be more than just "a couple of companies".
I drive a compact VW with a 1-liter, 16-valve engine, and it is "throttle by wire". That's an economy car, mind you.
I had if fail on me a few times when new, the dealer would never figure out the problem, they would see some strange conditions logged on the CPU, hard-reset the whole thing and it would not happen for a few days.
After the third visit to the shop they finally replaced the whole control unit and I never had another problem with that car since (had it for 2.5 years not)
... nearly ruined Audi in the 80s, thanks to a few issues with the SWI*..
Turns out folks were ham-footin' the small brake pedal and hittin' the gas at the same time with their big fat American feet. That's why automatic cars have shift locks now. OTOH, you will never hear the FedGov call a voter/taxpayer what they really need to be called: a dumbass. P. J. O'Rourke wrote up a really good commentary on this in one of his books that I can't recall right now, but it was pretty spot-on and funny, as most of his stuff is.
* SWI: Seat to Wheel Interface.
you: haha! why don't I play a trick on my wife that will put her, myself and the others around us, on the freeway, in grave danger. It'll be great.
WTF is the matter with you?
If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
ABS is essentially brake-by-wire. If the black box decides it doesn't want pressure at the slave cylinders, the driver is just along for the ride.
I do not know about other ABS systems, but in my vehicles if the ABS fails the power brakes still work. I had my ABS malfunction in one vehicle and the brakes worked like normal. In my experience, ABS modules are very fail-safe and I have never heard of one taking the driver along for the ride. Maybe you have, I am not saying you are wrong, just that I have not heard of that before.
24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
Try taking a look underneath a Z4 sometime. "Electric power steering" refers only to the system that is providing the BOOST to the steering effort. The actual connection between the steering wheel and the tie rods that turn the wheels is EXACTLY THE SAME as any other mechanical steering system...either a recirculating ball or rack-n-pinion system.
The ONLY difference here is that the boost is provided electrically rather than hydraulically. Your example is "steering boost by wire", NOT "steer by wire".
Could someone please point out to me where in the Constitution, exactly, is the "Right To Not Be Offended"?
That might have been unexpected, but it's seldom lethal. Your car will drive just fine without any power steering fluid (assuming you don't burn out the pump and innards of course), as that is how all cars used to be.
If you'd accelerated a little bit, you'd have noticed it got easier to turn, as the tires have less constant contact with the ground.
Basically, the point I'm making is that if power steering fails, it's a little harder to turn. If steering-by-wire fails, the car DOES NOT turn at all, and you die. Granted, I'm sure that there would be some sort of failover in place before it was ever actually implemented, but that's the difference.
Having to put some muscle into it is a whole lot better than the wheel spinning freely with no effect.
-9mm-
Anyone remember the story 60 Minutes, or 20/20 or one of those "news magazine" tv shows, about pickups with exploding gas tanks?
The complaint was that the gas tanks were outside the frame (or something like that) and that they'd explode on side impact crashes.
They even showed a nice convincing demonstration by crash testing a few trucks for the nice TV cameras.
And then, after the fact, the truth came out -- while explosions COULD happen given the right circumstances, it wasn't that easy to do. In fact, the news people couldn't duplicate it in front of the cameras. So they placed a charge and DETONATED the gas tanks at the time of impact.
Or how about the rollover stories about the Isuzu Trooper started by Consumer Reports? We happened to have one, and I know how well they handled. They were NOT easy to roll over UNLESS YOU WERE TRYING TO ROLL IT OVER. I was following my wife down a mountain highway at 65+ and she had to make an emergency lane change, just like the consumer report "story". It handled just like you'd expect a trunk based vehicle to handle, and she never lifted a wheel off the ground. I also took the same vehicle off-roading (serious off-roading in the Rockies) -- it was a very capable, well-rounded vehicle. And not prone to tip-over.
Moral -- "news" organizations often have an axe to grind for whatever reason -- and they will do anything to (1) bury that axe into the person, company, side of the story they want to hurt, or (2) whatever it takes for ratings. End result - Can't Trust Them!
. 62,400 repetitions make one truth -- Brave New World, Aldous Huxley
"But we're French, we don't even have a word for victory!"
http://xkcd.com/386/
One month ago BMW called back worldwide 580 X5 3.0 with manual transmission.
l _i d=6924
When touching the clutch slightly, the car accelerates at full throttle, even is the gas pedal is pushed only a little.
http://www.autobild.de/suche/artikel.php?artike
...able to stop close to Riom (Puy-de-Dome).
I love listening to people who speak French, but when I read it phonetically I can't help but think of Inspector Clouseau.
"Is that your minkey?"
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
I had the exact opposite problem happem in a 300ZX. My mechanic had done some work but forgot to tighten the bolts holding the throttle cable down. It came loose on the interstate, causing the car to drop back to an idle. I hopped out, took a look, and put the throttle cable back where it was supposed to go and hand-tightened the bolts.
These days I know that pretty much any vehicle with a mechanical throttling system is not 100% trustworthy, but I also know how to deal with situations where the linkages get stuck so it doesn't tend to be particularly inconvenient when it happens.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
> Shift into neutral.
You forgot to suggest trying the brakes first.
According to the horribly mangled translation of the article, it appears that Renault examined the car and found no wear on the brakes. Assuming they don't find anything that would prevent the brakes from working, that suggests the driver didn't really try to use them to stop the car.
I wonder where runaway acceleration is more likely: a new car or an older car.
My own runaway acceleration story:
I used to drive an old beat up VW Rabbit diesel. It was my dad's car which he let me use while I was in college. It used to accelerate uncontrollably after driving for 20-30 minutes. It only happened during highway driving.
There was nothing visibly wrong with the throttle cable. Immediately after stopping (by applying brakes), trying to start the engine would immediately result in the same problem. If it was allowed to rest for about 20 minutes, it would drive OK again. Dad's analysis was that my big feet were just getting caught (thanks, dad).
When it started accelerating, the only way to stop it was to pull over and push down on the brakes until the engine stalled.
It took about a year before we found a mechanic that knew the answer. There was an exaust line which would allow motor oil to blow into the engine. The motor oil/diesel fuel mixture would burn hotter and faster than just the diesel fuel, causing the engine to race. We pulled the exhaust line and the problem went away.
The clouds of smoke pouring out from the hood caused it to look like the car was on fire every time I stopped at an intersection, but it never took off again.
The reason we went to that mechanic and finally discovered the truth is once while on the highway it *really* took off. There was less time to think than usual because of heavier traffic. I forgot myself and hit the clutch. That did stop the engine, but in a far more spectacular way than I would have preferred (motor oil spraying out of the hood).
The car also used to cough big globs of used motor oil out the exhaust pipe. Nobody ever used to tailgate me.
breaking prolonged and at high speed will cause severe reduction in breaking power and even a LOSS of breaking power.
Well, there's the rub, though, isn't it? If a car goes full throttle and out of control, who's going to let that continue for a prolonged period? A sensible person would shove the brake pedal to the floor and immediately bring the car to a stop rather than continue tooling down the highway applying partial braking force until the brakes overheated.
So, the poster was very, very right.
- Hail to our fearless misleader! Fool speed ahead!
You posted a link to Geocities on Slashdot ?!? Did you honestly think anyone would be able to see that ?
What the heck have you been smoking, dude ?
--LordPixie
Actually, it's not the sudden opening of the throttle that would result in unburned fuel.
In the old school carb, if the throttle (a simple metal plate) opens wide rapidly, it will result in greatly increased airflow without much of an increase in fuel flow - and the engine will tend to 'lean cut' - not enough fuel and far too much air for combustion.
The solution to that was to add accelerator pumps to the carb. When the driver boots the throttle, the mechanical linkage also activates one or more accelerator pumps which squirt a bunch of additional fuel into the mix. Naturally, this isn't metered particularly accurately, but it'll ensure that the mixture is more or less right (probably well on the rich side) so the engine doesn't lean cut.
Modern electronic fuel injection is a completely different kettle of fish. Cars without pure throttle by wire will still meet requirements because the EFI system won't just dump a bunch of raw fuel into the incoming air like the accelerator pump, it'll be metered. In many cars, the linkage to the throttle butterfly is still just a cable - but pure throttle by wire (where the only connection between your right foot and the throttle body) is better still as when the engine control computer (known as a FADEC - Full Authority Digital Engine Control - in aviation) has control over the entire process instead of reacting to the throttle butterfly suddenly going wide open.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
- This car has no key, so he couldn't just cut the motor that way. Especially since it's a contact less rfid like key, you must step out of the car, which isn't easy at 200 kph (~160mph)
- Tt's automatic gear model. It's a robotized gear system. It won't let you change the speed if it'll blow the motor. Switching to 1st gear at 200 kph to stop the car isn't an option. Switching to neutral may not be possible if the computer is postal
- It's not a matter of pressing the accelerator while you try to break, it was on cruise control. You don't have to press any pedal to keep the speed.
But all of this is uterly suspect- Cruise control is switched off as soon as you hit the brake. The switch is redondant (2 independant switches on the pedal), and even with the motor still trying to keep the car at this speed, if he hits the brake, the car won't be able to maintain that high speed, maybe it wont stop, but it will slow down.
- If he had pressed the accelerator instead of the brake, the car would have first accelerated, but since that too stops the cruise control, the car would have stopped as soon as he would have stopped to accelerate.
- The inspection of renault showed the brake weren't burned or melted. Not even a sligth abnormal wearing. I would have stand on the brake myself !
- The guy is full of shit : He just had his driving license back after loosing it for speeding and driving drunk
Have your personnal opinion, but imho he was caught speeding and didn't want to carry the responsability and so blamed the car...Comment removed based on user account deletion
A) They could have a bug that only comes out under particular cirumstances that weren't reached in the test.
We all know that.
B) It can take a long time to smoke out weird car problems. I had a problem with my steering lock engaging that wasn't correctly diagnosed for like two years because it was a very specific set of actions that caused it to happen. It eventually caused an accident; fortunately it just put me into a guard rail when I was making a turn. They didn't believe me until one of the mechanics was buzzing around the shop and it almost put him into the wall.
THEN they believed me.
The revolution will NOT be televised.
They still have a mechanic backup, because here in germany no car with steering by wire or brake by wire is allowed on public streets...
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
I've had my cruise control accelerate beyond its setting several times. Even had the logic module replaced twice to no effect.
I'll have braked to slow down for other traffic, then passed that traffic, and hit Resume. The car accelerates to the previously set cruising speed as normal, but then suddenly decides it has to go floor it to reach another, higher speed.
Tapping the brake pedal once has always disengaged it, and the one time when I had enough clear straight road to allow it to run (the technician that worked on it wanted the data), it would go up to 95 MPH, slow to 90, then back to 95, repeating. Probably a limitation in the vehicle that prevents it from going faster.
Unfortunately I have been unable to reproduce the behavior on demand, and I always wonder if it is going to go crazy again the next time I hit the Resume button. I'm thinking it must be some combination of the cruise controls used to adjust the cruising speed pressed long before the triggering event that primes the event.
The only way I'd accept a black box in my car would be to diagnose this problem and get it fixed, and then I'd have the black box removed.
Mine is a Honda Civic with aftermarket cruise control (not a standard option).
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
True, but if you held the brakes on (Say for a minute) and noticed absolutely no change in vehicle speed - Would you even bother to try any more? I know I wouldn't - I'd be more interested in concentrating on the road ahead / finding other options to make sure I didn't waste someone. This could of course explain why his brakes weren't left as smoking metal strips at the end of it.
I'm getting the feeling with this one that we'll never really know what happened.
People that believe in their opinions don't post AC.
Is it? I doubt it very much. Please post a link that supports this assertion.
Cars are designed to expressly NOT do that in frontal ollisions.
Self awareness - try it!
Didn't Daimler Chrysler learn anything from the famous Moose Test ? This is where some Swedish journalists easily put an A-class on it's side in their standard Moose (called an Elk there) avoidance test.
Chip H.
>> attempting to use my computer in a responsible manner when all of a sudden it decided to download porn
> To avoid that, never use Outlook, Outlook Express, or Internet Explorer.
Actually, several programs went crazy all at once: BitTorrent, Kazaa, eDonkey, GNUtella, even FTP! It was very scary that all of those applications could take over my computer for hours and hours the way they did. Even scarier was the way I was forced to sit and watch them the entire time.
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
Except that there is STILL a mechanical component in throttle by wire, an dthe mechanical component is suppose to fail closed. Throttle butterflies (and my diesel pump, are spring loaded, and the actuator pulls against the spring.
Yes, it is possible for the actuator to jam open instead of just stop working - all systems fail. But the strong tendency is to fail closed.
Contrast this with steering. With steering, there is no "safe" fail position. Left, right, straightforward - it's all a pretty bad choice.
Braking is a different problem. Cars don't have "fail-safe" brakes - that is, if there is a brake failure, the brakes are applied, not released. Trains, and I think trucks (anything with air brakes) have them, but not cars.
Also, we need to define the term "by wire" here. I, and most others, use that term to describe a system where a physical linkage (mechanical or hydraulic) is replaced by signals, a processor, and an actuator. So far, NONE of the "counter examples" in this thread for brakes and steering qualify. Those systems are electronically assisted, where the driver still supplies the motive force, but that force is modulated by the processor. Take the processor out of the loop, the driver is stil steering or braking. Yes, those systems are more unreliable, and yes, they fail "harder" than strict manual systems, but that is a world away from "drive by wire."
Is it coming? Yes. I saw an article on an experimental joystick controlled Saab a few years ago. But it will be a while until I trust a safety system that does not have some kind of backup. If the backups fail on my current car, i.e. I fail to provide the proper foot pressure or steering force, that is my own damned fault.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
Not related at all to what's going on. My wife was with me, and thinks it's a funny story.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
It's true that when the system is disabled you have normal hydraulic action. But, there are factors that can make ABS a detriment.
Stopping the car on gravel: You'll probably stop much faster by locking up the wheels than by letting the ABS modulate the brakes.
Complicated brake boosters: Many ABS systems use an electric pump instead of a more reliable vacuum diaphragm. I had one of these fail on me in a parking lot. Even though I still had manual hydraulics, it nearly caused me to drive into a wall.
Imminent crash: A good driver can use locked brakes to his advantage in "hitting the right way".
I don't think he could just put the car in neutral. Some cars actually won't let you do things that would hurt their engines or transmissions.
Many manual transmissions can't be put into reverse if your travelling more than 10 mph in the forward direction for example. My Audi won't let me shift out of neutral and into reverse without requiring me to first put my foot on the brake. It's also got a locking mechanism so that if you're in park, you can't shift without pressing the brake pedal. I have heard of Audi owners having problems with this... one guy couldn't get his car to go into any of the non-forward-gear settings.
The transmission has a little computer-controlled actuator that does all that stuff.
And I had major engine work done on my car a while back. When I got the car back from the shop, the cruise control was screwed up; it wouldn't activate, then all of a sudden it would set itself and go. It was kind of neat until it got stuck on "accelerate". It got up to 115 before I got it to shut off by braking hard. Fortunately, I got it fixed (replaced a computer module that was shorted when they worked on the car previously), and I was out in the high desert of California when it happened (no one lives out there).
And I've seen cars whose throttle got stuck in the full open position, and whose drivers put the brakes on until they caught fire (local news video... quite a few years back). So stuff like this is fairly believable.
and the most policitally incorrect one...
PONTIAC
Poor Old N(insert rest of racially derogitory(sp?) term that rhymes with trigger) Thinks Its A Caddy
Insert funny smart-ass comment here.
with a mechnical cruise control. I worked with Ford investigating "run-awy" vehicles in the early 80's. Turns out there was a real problem. There was an aluminum linkage that rubbed against a guide such that it could eventually wear a notch in the linkage. The notch could get large enoguh to eventually catch on the guide, and the cruise control was stuck. No way to turn it off other than shut down the engine. However, the notch would form at the location corresponding to your mostly commonly driven speed, so say here in Houston you would get the cruise typically stuck at about 90 mph.
----- There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend; those with loaded guns, and those who dig.
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/howto/articles/45 792/article.html
I was driving along on a highway on a Sunday morning when my main ABS unit with all the actuators, solenoids, and such blew a seal. Since it ties to all the brake lines, there was a sudden complete loss in brake pressure. I was stuck with a car going 55mph and a brake pedal that sank straight to the floor. Having an automatic, it wasn't easy for me immediately downshift, but I got it and was able to slow down enough to use the cable-actuated parking brake to come to a stop. Needless to say, the drive to the garage was a slow one.