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PhD's in the Industry?
Taylor Flagg asks: "I'm about to finish up with my bachelor's in Computer Science, and am looking into graduate school options. My advisor is persuading me to go right into the PhD program but I know I don't want to be stuck lecturing for the rest of my life. Are companies in the industry hiring PhDs, and if so, what are their roles and is anything different expected of them (aside from making more cash)?"
For a career in industry, either start working now, or get a PhD in another area.
It worked for me... (PhD in Mathematics, professional programmer for 8 years now).
I've heard it as MS = "More Shit" but yeah, it's an oldie.
;)
After four years of real schooling, you'd think most graduates would know whether they want 2-4 more years of the same...
I have only one piece of concrete advice, and that is to make up your mind NOW. Don't decide to pick up school again 15 years down the road -- that is a waste of time, resources, and effort. Education is for the young.
Other than that, my only advice is the standard "follow your heart" pitch. Don't continue school unless you seriously enjoy it, or have an equally serious desire for extra cash
The unofficial
http://www.google.com/jobs
I've been searching for a job since I got laid off in June. I've seen quite a large number of PHD jobs go by, mostly from big companies like IBM and Intel. What's expected of them varies from job to job, but they want them for the really important jobs. And yes, they get paid what they're worth.
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I saw a thread of this name and most people recommended the CCIE. Now I dont know if you are talking about IT or not, but I also dont know if you love research.
I love research. I could play with hilbert spaces and QED all day, even if that requires putting up with the odd lecture. But I know for more $$$ I'd aim for the CCIE if heading for IT, or EE if heading out in Physics.
I can think of many places where a CS PhD will be useful but those markets are small. Think of the data scientists at CERN, raking in the data using rooms and rooms of server farms, obtaining data at terabytes per second, and processing it in real time. For that stuff, you need CCIEs, CS PhDs and Math PhDs. Also at places like Google I'd imaging.
Not at your run of the mill IT house, or corp that needs an IT dept though.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
(God help me, management hat on)
First off, you will probably expect higher compensation than someone fresh out of school. When I look at what you will be asking for starting salary, you will be competing with some fairly seasoned veterans out there. I'll very quickly go on to your real world experience - and compare that to someone who has been doing this for many years. You don't stand much of a chance.
Secondly, I'll have a strong suspicion that you will probably move on to another gig once you do get that real world experience under your belt. It costs a fair bit to ramp up a new employee. Again, I suspect the extra years of groveling on a pittance of a salary will leave you expecting a big payout.
Lastly, I'll wonder if you can really do the work. Even if your graduate work truly was world-class stuff, it will be hard to get past the 'it was only in school / hobby' status.
There are exceptions out there... some shops are very focused on the sciences, and a PhD would be considered the norm. These places tend to be the exception rather than the rule. I have worked in shops where they would specifically target physics post grads because they would be *happy* to work for half of what others expect. Not saying it is right...
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It's by a guy who got his doctorate and he discusses reasons to do so or not to do so. Hope it helps!
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A good rule of thumb is that you should only do a PhD if you think you'll enjoy the PhD process for its own sake: working for several years on a really hard problem that nobody else has ever been able to solve. A PhD typically takes 4 to 9 years. (4-5 years is typical in the humanities, where grad students are a financial liability to their departments. 5-7 is more typical for people in the sciences whose research goes well, and 7-9 for people in the sciences who find out that their first project simply didn't work.) You can't possibly justify 4-9 years of extremely hard work on the basis of the (non-academic) job it'll get you, or the increased earning potential. If all you wanted was a fancy job with a high salary, you'd be much better off putting the 4-9 years of extremely intense effort into a job.
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"in the day" you only had to know your subject to get a job. Than it took at least a HS diploma. Then after the Dot Com Bust, you had to have a BS. But, for the really satisfying and interesting jobs that both pay well and allow you to stretch your mind, yes, you need a PhD. You do not have to "lecture" just because you have a PhD, though you may need to lecture to GET a PhD. Look at Google, they seem only to hire PhDs. But they are not the only fish in the sea. Get it.
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
I disagree with the "do it now" statement. Do it when you feel like you *need* to do it, and at no other time.
By the sounds of the original poster's question, I would definitely encourage him/her to NOT go into grad school. If you're not sure that you want to go, then you -don't- want to go, period. Grad school is a huge commitment and a lot of work. If you know deep in your heart that it's where you belong and it's what you have to be doing, you can survive and even enjoy it and feel good about it. Otherwise, it's a major drag and you hate every minute of it.
I'm a grad student right now, and I'm *loving* every (atrociously difficult, mind-bending) minute of it. It's the hardest thing I've ever done, but it's worth it. A couple of my friends are here for the career benefit they perceive, not because they truly want to do it. They are miserable, depressed, and they can't wait to just get out of here.
Do not go now just because you think you will never have the chance again and you don't want to miss it. Wait. If there comes a time in your life when you feel driven to go to grad school, THEN do it and forget all the naysayers. If it never comes, then don't look back.
Funny enough, a good two thirds of my fellow grad students are returning to school after anywhere from 2 to 10 to 30 years of working. Most of us are here for the love of it. A few have returned for career boosts, and they're the most miserable.
In any field, find the strangest thing and then explore it. -John Archibald Wheeler
Companies also don't like people who are likely to move to a competitor or who might become a competitor. That is threatening - and I can understand why. As a result, people who are "too smart" can get left on the shelf, because they are perceived as being a danger to those who might hire them.
Related to this is an atmosphere of companies not wanting to hire someone who is "over-qualified". Such people are seen as likely to move on at the first opportunity, wasting the company's investment in training them to do the job they were hired for.
Those are the negatives, but as I mentioned right at the start, there are positives. An experienced and well-educated employee can be trusted to do the job right. That's one reason certifications are popular. They "prove" (in theory, anyway) that the person is competent.
A skilled employee, especially in an R&D division, may very well generate revenue by producing cheaper, quicker, easier processes. They're also a primary source of "Intellectual Property" and patents. Given the choice, companies prefer to make money than to give it to one of their rivals.
PhDs are also relatively rare. The value of the degree, as a degree, is relatively small. But its uniqueness draws attention. That makes it a very powerful tool, when you've a saturated job market. Being seen, when you've a few thousand people vying for the same job, is critical if you are to get even to the stage of an interview.
Finally, although "academia" is relatively poorly paid (fools that Governments are), academics are valued in industry, where the money is much more forthcoming. Why? Because academics can give a project much more credibility. A company is expected to spout bullshit and offer vaporware. An academic, especially from places like Harvard or MIT (in the US, Oxford or Cambridge for the UK) is expected to be honest - or, at least, more so. As such, it is not unusual for projects that might raise eyebrows with shareholders or consumers to be carried out by Universities, sponsored in the background by the companies who actually want the work done.
Conclusion? A PhD is a gamble. If it pays off, it'll pay off extremely well and you'll not be short of cash. If it doesn't, then it's cost you a lot of money that you might never earn back. But there's only one way to find out, and that's to give it a try.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
There are exceptions out there? some shops are very focused on the sciences, and a PhD would be considered the norm.
That's the key right there. If you've got a PhD, don't go applying for web development or desktop administration. On the other hand, my company is hiring PhDs right now to program digital signal processing. We make embedded medical imaging systems, and we've even hired MDs to do SQA testing! My immediate boss has a PhD from Brown. With only a bachelors degree, and a bachelor of *arts* at that, I feel like the dumb guy at my job.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Get a PhD. if you love your field. The process is very demanding in just about every way there is to be demanding. You get paid next to nothing, you teach only the course professors don't want to teach and the work is considerably more difficult than anything else you've done in school by orders of magnitude.
Even in a field like mine, Philosophy, where a PhD. is required just to get interviewed for a position getting the degree is incredibly difficult and often tedious. In a field where you can get a good job without one there is little incentive to get a PhD. beyond personal desire.
Succinctly, if someone where to ask you, "Why are you in the doctoral program?" Your first answer should be, "Because I can't imagine myself doing anything else." If that isn't your first answer then you should probably do something else.
Even comparing 1st year with 4th year. In 1st year, we would go through 1 chapter of a textbook a month. In 4th year, it was about 1 chapter per week. These days, I try to get through 1 technical book a month and 1 non-technical book a month. That's on top of the 50 hour work weeks that I put in.
It's just a whole different ball game. If you continuely challenge yourself, you will adapt.
Btw, this is not a knock against academia. Do what you love. Do what challenges you. If that happens to be academia, go with academia.
I got my Masters degree in computer science because I read the course descriptions and said "I gotta have some of that."
If you aren't drooling over those courses like I was, I can't recommend post-grad work at all.
If you also don't know you want that PhD, but you are drooling over the course descriptions, consider a Masters. My institution offered a course-only Masters program, and I took that, because I looked around and I thought the Masters projects were a joke, and I figured I was better off working on my own. Can't say if I was right yet but it has at least been fun.
Whoa! Don't listen to this guy. It's obvious that he hasn't the first clue as to what it takes to get a PhD at a good school in a difficult feild such as computer science or mathematics.
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PhDs are definately hired, but usually right into a management position. Also, you will end up looking at different type of jobs, usually research related rather than simple a progammer or similar.
Only hiring PhDs:
http://www.research.att.com/areas/stat/res
Again, mostly PhDs only:
http://domino.research.ibm.com/hr/research
Note the mention of 'postdoctoral-researcher' at the bottom of each job description:
http://research.microsoft.com/about
Again, *requiring* PhDs:
http://www.caprion.com/content/careers/bio
And I could go on and on. Basically you will be looking at totally different types of jobs. Jobs that the parent can't even get! And yes, they will pay you well. But no, you can't get a job doing basic programming easily. You are over qualified.
First off, let me say that I have a PhD. However, I didn't do it straight out of my BSc, I took a couple of years out, did an MSc, took a couple more years and then did my PhD. Even then I was only persuaded to do the PhD because it was clear I was suited to it, something I didn't know when I did my BSc. I think too many people go straight into a PhD from their undergraduate work and these people can often struggle. I have seen a number of students who did well at their BSc but who didn't fit into the PhD style of work.
Is it worth having a PhD? I did mine because I was told by someone I respected that if I didn't do it then I would always be someone's assistant rather than ever get to lead my own research. This is true within academia but is less true in the commercial world. If anything, a PhD can make you less employable because you may be seen as too expensive, too 'brainy' or too much of a threat to the higher ups. If you think about getting into management the MBA people are likely to look down on you as a PhD because they will think you are far too interested in research and less interested in making money. This is a sweeping statement I know but it does come from my personal experience.
So, a PhD is hard work, the effect on your pay and job prospects is likely to be minimal unless you want to stay in academia, and people who don't have one will consider you a threat and you may have to hide the fact that you have it. IMHO.
"I have the attention span of a strobe lit goldfish, please get to the point quickly!"
That's your fault then. You should call them Computer Scientists not software developers. Computer Science is the theoretical aspect of computers such as classifying languages, developing new paradigms, and developing more theories. Computer Science is not meant for "practical" usage. If you want someone fairly highly skilled get a Software Engineer. If you want a great coder get someone from a community college. They are usually trained on specific tools (e.g. .Net) and are expected to know the ins-and-outs of all applicable apps including Microsoft Project Manager.
I am one of the few people in my school who is really interested in Computer Science. My major interest is in the semantics of programming languages and how they attempt to structure the way they look at problems. *THIS* is Computer Science and please do not complain when I write shitty assembler. I'm not knocking anything but there are specific degrees for specific career paths. Computer Science ==> Software Developer is not one of them.
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
It seems to me that the situatin is a bit different in North America, in Europe, you need a Masters' in order to do a Ph.D. (It's actually a bit more complicated than that, but with the reform, it should be this simple from now on).
Even if you want to stay at the university, you have to consider that a lot has to do with politics and the chance if you get a professorship depends on this.
I would think you need to do a Ms before starting on a Ph.D., just to get the 'practical' and 'theoretical' background required.
You have to consider that, once you have a Ph.D., the expectations in industry are also larger: if you just want to 'score', go right to industry; if you like a challenge, get the degree (challenge 1) and next fulfill the high expectations of your employers... (challenge 2..n).
And most importantly, don't do it for the money (in any case): do it because you are interested in the field and have a passion for it; you like to dig into a problem where little is known of and you don't get to sleep easily unless you figured out the problem... If you have this, you will not mind the pushing around that much and still love what you are doing and work with collegues with the same passion.
Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. You can't simply say, "Today I will be brilliant."
If you plan on being technical at all in your job, get a Masters, but not a PhD. I have a Masters in Computer Science, and I get plenty of respect. However, anybody with a PhD gets treated like they can't handle the simplest of technical tasks, and for the most part, it's true. They sit around and write documents that are of no use to technical people and spout off ideas that never work in practice. The PhDs that can handle technical stuff try to keep people from finding out that they're doctors. (Yes, this is a generality, but stereotypes are born out of reality)
Plus, a Masters will get you more pay, while a PhD might keep you from getting a job, because companies feel that they can't afford to hire you.
However, do decide now. If you don't get the Masters right after your Bachelors, it's not really worth your time. If you wait, you'll be forced to just go to some local college or university rather than choosing one that's really suited to you. You'll get a poorer education and it'll be more difficult to balance work and school.
I'm not a PhD, but I did get the opportunity to help recruit for a Fortune 500 company for several years. We had a number of PhD grads talk to us, and not one made it past the screening interview, because their interests didn't match our needs. PhD's gave the impression of desire in research and more esoteric computing activities - very valid, but not what most companies need. Combine that with the fact that most wanted more money than their backgrounds appeared to merit, and it was no-go. Most companies need someone who have a good understanding of the basics, an area or two of focused knowledge, and the ability to execute, all at a reasonable price. PhD's often don't fit that bill.
That said, I have to agree with a few posts above - you should go with what you love. If you want to do the research and high end computing - do it. But do it because you love it, not as a career advancing step, because it may not help.
I agree with But no, you can't get a job doing basic programming easily. You are over qualified. But would add it may be difficult to get initial advanced programming job. You may be underqualified. The problem is there is a perception of a large gap between the two. I'm also willing to bet someone just finishing a Csci degree goal was not to be management.
Perhaps I sound a bit bitter, because I am... I was a bioinformaticist, who slowly devolved to a soulless code whore (and then worse) when the money shifted. The management notes came from feedback as I wandered further from my niche looking for a better job. I'd disagree with PhDs are definately hired, but usually right into a management position, because that did not happened from personal experience (or others I knew). In one case I was explicitly warned the interviewers would filter all 'science stuff' and to leave advanced degrees off the CV. They were right.... the money was right... my life forked from what I expected...
The kicker is I *do* know how much work it was for me and how much it was worth to them. How does the poster go, "sometimes your purpose in life is only to serve as a warning to others?"...
And yes, you listed some of the exceptions I mentioned. To that, I would also look for positions that required clearances and/or heavy research departments.
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Most shops avoid hireing fresh PhDs unless they really need them. Everything (H)elix1 wrote is basically true. The fear of an overqualified employee leaving is a valid concern. It is an employers market right now, so employers can be selective.
In contrast many employers appreciate an employee who earns a PhD while on the job. Part time graduate work is quite common. Even the few R&D shops that really appreciate PhDs seem to prefer PhDs earned while on the job over fresh PhDs.