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Storm Brewing over Microsoft on the Horizon?

SexyFingers writes "Robert X. Cringely, of I, Cringely discusses one of the last anti-trust lawsuit beleaguering Microsoft. It seems like Microsoft is looking bad on these bouts... words like, lie, dissemble, ignores were applied to Microsoft."

29 of 310 comments (clear)

  1. Nothing will change. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They'll worm their way out of it somehow, and after any publicity this generates dies down, they'll go right back to viciously fucking competitors, customers and business partners alike.

    1. Re:Nothing will change. by slavetrade55 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, if the customers are being fucked, they should stop buying MS stuff. And if their business partners are being fucked, then they should stop being partners with Microsoft. And as for competitors, which one, exactly makes a better operating system for x86 machines that normal human beings would want to use? And which one makes (ever made) a better office suite? Who makes a better media player? Answer: Nobody (Well, quicktime runs fairly well on my mac). That *does not* mean MS stuff is grandly spectacular, it just means their competitors are more litigious than they are innovative.

      Oh, and someone will now say how the competitors remark meant that MS is anticompetitive, using their monopoly to blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda. "OH NO! MS is selling windows for cheap to vendors who bundle it with their PCs! That makes them cheaper for customers to buy and so they only buy windows PCs!! *AND* they package a (crappy) web browser with the OS!" As Jim Ross might say, "Damn their black souls!"

      Firefox is a good example of how if a competitive product is released that people actually have a good reason to use, it will be adopted, even by people without a CS degree. Linux is coming along nicely too, but is definitely not ready for mom's desktop.

      One thing I do know is my powerbook has been giving me wet dreams, and MS stormtroopers aren't banging down my door.

    2. Re:Nothing will change. by slavetrade55 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Good stuff. I'll try it some time. Like I said, MS stuff isn't, you know, great, it's just that up till now there has not been much in the way of good alternatives. I fully applaud the open source guys for all their effort. I just can't bring myself to rail against MS as much as most people 'round here.

      That and I think the anti-trust litigation against MS is probably immoral, but that's a debate I don't really want to get into now.

    3. Re:Nothing will change. by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Insightful
      And as for competitors, which one, exactly makes a better operating system for x86 machines that normal human beings would want to use?

      BeOS. Except it doesn't exist any more because Microsoft abused it's monopoly to stop PC manufacturers from offering dual boot PCs. That's a cse in point.

      Who makes a better media player?

      Apple. The combination of iTunes and Quicktime.

      That *does not* mean MS stuff is grandly spectacular, it just means their competitors are more litigious than they are innovative.

      Not true. It ignores all the monopoly abuse that Microsoft indulged in to get where it is.

      Firefox is a good example of how if a competitive product is released that people actually have a good reason to use, it will be adopted, even by people without a CS degree.

      No. It's evidence that a no cost application is something that Microsoft can't cross subsidize to undercut. Opera has been better than IE for years, but costs money, or needs adware.

      Be happy with your PowerBook, as I am with my Mac. But realise that the superiority of the Mac platform hasn't stopped it from dwindling to 2% of the market. You aren't going to claim that is lack of innovation too, surely?

    4. Re:Nothing will change. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I wouldn't want to kill anyone just to take down MS. A more humane solution would be a big EMP burst perhaps, in their Redmond headquarters, wiping out all their hard drives :). And we'll have to find their offsite backups too, and give 'em the same treatment.

    5. Re:Nothing will change. by tulax24 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Again you missed the point. Microsoft can offer IE for "free" because they make such a whopping profit on their OS. You can even think of it as you are buying windows XP and IE together, so you are paying some amount for it. You just aren't aware of the explicit cost of it. Also, not having to advertise it because they bundle it with the OS saves them money as well. Opera has neither of these advantages, and so is relegated to a tiny market share even though it is vastly better.

    6. Re:Nothing will change. by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You don't understand the concept that abuse of monopolies is a problem. If you don't understand that, none of the details will make sense to you either. Go back to the Sherman act. Go back to monopolies of the past, and find out why they are a problem. Find out why the Sherman act was invented.

      When you say customers have choice, you lose all credibility.

    7. Re:Nothing will change. by Qzukk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The stuff that is bundled with windows is good enough for most people out of the box.

      The stuff that is bundled with windows is bundled with windows because Microsoft said so, and that was the problem. No amount of desire, fame, or money would have allowed Dell to install Opera (or Netscape, in the specific case of the original lawsuits) on a Windows pc it was selling, thanks to Microsoft's abuse of its monopoly position.

      You say "Opera should make their own OS", but thats not the same. If a Chevy dealer wants to offer a TV with the purchase of a new car, should the dealer have to make their own cars? Their own TVs?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    8. Re:Nothing will change. by mrbcs · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The main problem with Microsoft is that they have also locked in the file formats. It's absurd that a closed, proprietary format should become the defacto standard. They use this to force upgrades that people don't need and keep the competition out of the marketplace. Yes Adobe has pdf, but many programs can also make pdf files. The .doc and .xls should have been made open in the DOJ trials. They did nothing, and nothing will change until the viruses and spyware hit critical mass... then maybe people will try alternatives.

      --
      I'm not anti-social, I'm anti-idiot.
    9. Re:Nothing will change. by Brian+Kendig · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And when Microsoft steals your idea anyway, how many years can you stay in business without any revenues until Microsoft runs out of courtroom appeals?

    10. Re:Nothing will change. by michrech · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My Powerbook running itunes, quicktime, and Firefox disagrees with you.

      Apple's measly 2%-5% market share disagrees with you. What is funny is that Apple has made it's own problem by cutting off the clone makers. I'd look at apple as a viable 'choice' if they hadn't done that. The hardware was good, the prices were getting more in-line with PC prices for the time, etc. Apple just couldn't stand that. They couldn't be content with being the MS of the PowerPC hardware. Stupid move, in my eyes. Yea, they are still around, but they will never be the large company that they could have been.

      Not to mention that *any* Apple desktop computer I'd want to buy is exactly twice as expensive (if not mroe-so) than, say for example, a Dell desktop of comparable specs.

      That's like having a choice between a decent car for about $30k or a luxury car for $60k or higher, and that is IT. Sure, there might be a few cars you can get for free, but you need to piece the thing together from parts you find all over the globe, but it's there!

      It's just not the same.

      --
      bork bork bork!
    11. Re:Nothing will change. by krunk7 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      1. It's fairly cheap
      2. It's well supported
      3. There's lots of software for windows
      4. There's a lot of hardware compatibility
      5. It's good enough for most people, despite obvious flaws

      I think you forgot a few:
      6. It's bundled with damn near every OEM pc made.
      7. OEM's are required to purchase a windows license for every cpu sold as a result of Microsoft extortion tactics.

      Combine that with the fact that 1, 2, 3, and 4 are a direct consequence of my 6 and 7 and you may begin to understand the meaning of monoply. . . probably not though.

    12. Re:Nothing will change. by vsprintf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are there any grandmothers out there who said, "Oh, I'd rather use Firefox than IE"?

      There are some grandmothers out there who wrote programs before MicroSoft was incorporated. Yes, my mother, the grandmother of my child, knows that IE is a bad thing. Stop being so sexist and ageist. Who do you think invented the systems you're using today?

  2. headache by earthstar · · Score: 1, Insightful

    With so many law suits,I think bill Gates will be suffering from Headaches and others problems....

    You think he is enjoying that pile of cash?

  3. Re:Finally by korba · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not for the first time, and not for the last time. It's all about exchanging. They're rich enough to be sued over and over.

  4. Re:A married man's life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    I don't ascribe to the idea of a one-dimensional "intelligence" axis. But for the task in question - lying and deceit - women usually outperform men. That the kid is as smart as his mother means the kid is doing as well as a woman. But as human evolution, contrary to popular belief, has not stopped at all, and, contrary to popular belief, major differences can show up in one generation, it is quite possibly the case the kid would do worse than a current-model female child his age.

  5. IN CAPITALIST AMERICA... by hruske · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... the guilty survives.

  6. Ergh by celeritas_2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I hate the evil empire I really do, but I've got work to do here. Really, people are getting much too excited about this, Microsoft will eventually die, but not yet anyway. It just depends on how much Longhorn sucks.

    --
    -- Checking emails and kicking cheats `till the day I die.
    1. Re:Ergh by slashname3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually the more delay and reduction in features to Longhorn the longer Linux has to get a desktop system that is easy for the typical user to use. Linux already has most of the applications available that can replace all of the Microsoft based applications. Noteable excpetion is tax prepration software. (and I don't consider a web based application as a suitable replacement).

      Mirosoft knows that their current business model will not continue to be viable. That is why they started the process a couple of years ago to change over from a purchase once license to a an annual license scheme. Companies will no longer buy 10,000 copies of an OS and applications and use them for 5 years or more. Microsoft wants those companies to pay every year for those 10,000 seats. Linux and Open Source applications can provide a zero cost up front as well as updates and fixes in subsequent years. In addition they can choose from several different options in most categories which in most cases use open file formats and API's so they can interchange applications as needed. Very different from Microsofts current scheme of keeping the file formats and API's hidden so people can not develop alternative applications.

      Microsoft knows their time is limited, hence the huge dividend they payed out this year. They will continue to drain as much money out of the company as they can in the next several years. And during that time they will try to re-invent the company so they are not dependent on releasing new OSes every few years. Such a model is not sustainable in the long run ( I mean just how many new inovative items can you add to an OS?).

      The real danger is when Microsoft starts their legal campaign to maintain and prop up their current business model. The lawsuits may devistate the industry making it illegal to write and use alternative OSes and applications. Of course this could finally bring to a head the issues with patenting software.

  7. Re:Isn't this illegal? by kramer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wouldn't normally evidence that suggests that MS is doing naughty things (manipulation of evidence, etc.) invite a DoJ probe or something to see what exactly they're up to?

    Not under this administration.

  8. Will it matter? by nurb432 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even if its proven they lied/committed perjury.. I don't think its going to really matter much.

    The government already has proven they aren't interested in doing the job that was needed, and gave Microsoft a 'pass'.

    Sure they might pull out some token fine to make the people feel better, but it wont amount to anything more then a blip on the books...

    Unlike ATT, when they were attacked, Microsoft has managed to take control of the situation and will in the end, win, regardless of the outcome.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  9. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Cromac · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're dreaming if you think Kerry isn't just as big a friend to the mega corps. In case you've forgotten he, or at least his wife, owns one. His running mate won't want to hurt the mega corps either, who will he sue for mega bucks if the large corps go under?

  10. Odd isn't it... by Cylix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If this were Joe nobody, they would come and take the relevant hardware from him. If this were Small Business Nobody... they would still take their equipment away from them.

    However, because they are mega-huge corp... they ask for the information.

    It's silly to think they are going to make it easy to screw themselves.

    --
    "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
  11. Re:Why government DOESN'T keep emails.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Firstly, this is the link that works:

    Secondly, you should argue against that policy. In all likelihood you never speak with anyone who has the ability to change it or even themselves ever speaks with someone with the ability to change it, but if the information is classified, it is usually exempt from FOIA, and if it isn't, you shouldn't attempt to undermine the FOIA by pre-emptively deleting stuff. In fact, short of imformation that has a need for temporary secrecy such as the evaluation of various bids or discussions of security issues, you should be putting all that stuff online anyway. A policy of all emails being archived, and all archives older than 3 years automatically going online unless manually excepted, would be appropriate. You make your living from my tax dollars.

    Please consider suggesting this, or non-confrontationally discussing how you would hypothetically operate under such a policy, in coffee room talk or other informal situations. Such gossip and chatter can have a bigger effect than you might immagine, and when expressed as idle speculation in a non-official setting can be done with little danger to your job.

    One issue you might raise with the government folks is this: do they like the protections of the Hatch Act ? Are they aware that involvement in a scheme to evade FOIA might one day be construed as reason to invalidate those protections ? Can they invision a deficit burdened government going after every way possible of cutting costs, including making an issue out of the FOIA evasion just to find an excuse to slash pensions ?

  12. yeah so did the nazi deathcamp guards by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Or the guards or those who feed the guards or who provide a home for them or those who deliver the prisoners to the deathcamps.

    Evil great and small can happen because people turn their back because it is to inconvenient to deal with it right now.

    But microsoft is an easy evil. You are not going to be shot for going after ms or any other cooperation that has gotten out of control. Yet.

    But leave it like this and the common american Sci-Fi theme of evil cooperations controlling the world, odd that in capatalist america hollywood movies often have cooperations as the evil enemy, will become true.

    Your strategie seems to be that Longhorn will suck. I got news for you. Every fucking windows release ever has sucked. Note that all the MS apologists are saying stuff like "Well this new release is less crap then the old one" but mostly are pointing out how good the next one will be and that all your current troubles are your fault anyway.

    So go right ahead and keep supporting MS with your computer tax and blind obedience. Others are fighting by not giving MS a penny and supporting those who help break out, (Have you bought your copy of Doom3 and Opera yet?)

    For those objecting to the nazis being brought in to this discussion lets not forget that they and their kind (what is the difference between "gein juden" and "whites only") were in power and doing their petty hatred and corrupting long before the famous "final solution" was put into effect. All those years people cried out in protest and people like the above poster silenced them by saying they shouldn't make a fuss and let people get on with their jobs and that it all would work out okay.

    I am not saying that MS will be rounding up people or anything similar. I do foresee a future were cooperations like MS but also like media have such a huge amount of control that being critical about them becomes impossible. Already controversial movies are being boycotted and tv series cancelled because the powers that be don't like them.

    MS will not be the evil but may easily be an instrument. Just as radio tv and the newspapers have become controlled by a tiny handfull of rightwingers (the same families that gave contributions to the nazis) we might loose the net as the last bastion of free expression that can be heard.

    Why else should MS be pushing to make DRM into every piece of media made? Exactly why should my home movies have DRM? To protect my interests or to make sure a protest movie can be easily traced?

    Tin foil hat time or not but MS was caught recording what DVD's people watched. MS said it was a mistake when people found out and asked questions. It was a mistake alright. People never should have found out or am I just paranoid?

    But that is the weird thing about paranoia isn't it. Your only paranoid if your wrong. Like those people who warned of the nazis and the many other horrors before until it is to late people like you have the majority. Afterwards you cry out, why did nobody do nothing.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  13. Re:Finally by dbrutus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Actually, if they've been lying as accused, the company is largely finished. People will go to jail and Microsoft will be ripped to shreds. Arthur Anderson's corporate sins weren't as big as this and they're toast.

  14. Dont worry by MemoryDragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They will weasel their way out of it again. After all they have so much smearing cream ($$$$) in their pockets that law is a non issue for them.

  15. Re:Pretty darn blunt, as such one of his best colu by kalidasa · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The test for libel of a public figure (and though MS is a corporation, it is a legal person, and probably would be treated as a "public figure" for the purposes of libel law - but I am not a lawyer) by a journalist is pretty stringent: either deliberate falsification or reckless disregard for the truth. If MS goes after PBS with a claim that Cringely is libelling them, they'll have to prove that Cringely's accusation is false, AND that Cringely either knew or didn't care it was false. So if there's even a hint of truth here (and Cringely is citing court documents, so the plausible truth test may be satisfied by definition), MS likely would have no chance of winning on the merits. Now, they could try outlasting PBS money wise - after all, MS has a lot more money than PBS does - but if they try that, this information will get VERY widely disseminated, and will stain their reputation far more than the actual article has done. So it's not in MS's best interests to sue Cringely or PBS - far better to just respond by saying "we're disappointed that Mr. Cringely would choose to report the opposing party's position in a pending law suit without providing a responsible representation of our position, but as a successful world-wide company we've grown used to envy masquerading itself as righteousness." And the whole thing blows over yet again.

    Unless, that is, Burst has enough evidence to win.

  16. Re:words like, lie, dissemble, ignores were applie by Kwil · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes, but usually not with evidence and in a Court of Law

    --

    That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze