Indymedia Seizures Initiated In Europe

daveschroeder writes "According to this Indymedia.org article and AFP report, the request to seize Indymedia servers hosted by a U.S. company in the UK (covered in this previous slashdot story) originated from government agencies in Italy and Switzerland, not the United States. Because Indymedia's hosting company, Rackspace.com, is a U.S. company, the FBI coordinated the request and accompanied UK Metropolitan Police on the seizure under the auspices of the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT), an international legal treaty, but, according to an FBI spokesman, 'It is not an FBI operation. Through [MLAT], the subpoena was on behalf of a third country.'" Read on below for more.

daveschroeder continues: "Rackspace's statement reads, 'In the present matter regarding Indymedia, Rackspace Managed Hosting, a U.S. based company with offices in London, is acting in compliance with a court order pursuant to a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT), which establishes procedures for countries to assist each other in investigations such as international terrorism, kidnapping and money laundering. Rackspace responded to a Commissioner's subpoena, duly issued under Title 28, United States Code, Section 1782 in an investigation that did not arise in the United States. Rackspace is acting as a good corporate citizen and is cooperating with international law enforcement authorities. The court prohibits Rackspace from commenting further on this matter.'"

Comments

Oh no!

[Anonymous Coward]

Europe's not perfect! The United States isn't always the bad guy! Panic erupts on Slashdot.

Just like Echelon . . .

[user no. 590291]

. . . each of Europe and the U.S. gets the other to do the dirty work that would be too hot in each home country. This was a J. Edgar Hoover through the side door.

Re:Just like Echelon . . .

[demachina]

"You forgot D. Figure out how to make up for ~25% of the UN's budget."

The UN spends according to one source $10 billion a year. What is the United States' cut when it bothers to pay, a couple billion dollars a year. Its chump change. The U.S. is the one that makes a lot more out of it than reality justifies. China, with its new found prosperity could pick up the difference in a heart beat.

Your ecomonic threats are hot air. Throwing the U.S. out of the U.N. would have nothing to do with economics and markets until and unless it escalated to full scale military or economic conflict. The U.S. is in fact more dependent on the rest of the world than the other way around. The U.S. despite its wealth is the world's biggest debtor nation, not just consumer but, in trade, production and government deficits. If places like China and Japan stopped buying treasuries and dollars the U.S. would be in an instant fiscal crisis. If China decided to shut off the container ship traffic to the U.S. the U.S. economy would crater. Its lost on the Bush administration but budget and trade deficits make your country very vulnerable to the whims of other nations.

"but the consequences of being right hurt you just as much as it hurts the US."

I'm American not European though I lived in Canada for years and am aiming to get out of America next year if it stays its current course.

It would be a trauma if the U.S. economy were sliced out of the world, but the U.S. would suffer far more than the rest of the world. America doesn't actually produce anything any more. Its wealth is predicated on past glory, service industries and controlling wealth and shuffling it from one pile to another. The nations that produce things like manufactured goods, electornics, steel and oil are where the real productivity and new wealth lies. If the world switched to the Euro as the dominant currency, especially for oil that would deal a mighty blow to American arrogance. If oil producers embargo the U.S. again the U.S. would be devastated far worse than it was in the 70's. The producers wouldn't really even miss the U.S. oil market because China is clamouring for more oil every day and there is a global shortage. That would be one way to bring down global oil prices, just shut off the supply to the U.S.

The only real leverage the U.S. has in the world is its military.

Re:Just like Echelon . . .

[demachina]

"$25billion certainly is not"

That is $25 billion over five years. Now you are all the way up to $5 billion a year and then you have to resort to the shady nether regions of "indirect investment estimates". That is like a weeks worth of America's trade deficit.

"Like China wants the UN to start poking its nose into Chinese affairs anymore than they already are."

Here you are showing how clueless you are. If the Chinese starts picking up the U.N.'s tab why would they start poking around more in their internal affairs. Chances are the U.N. would poke less in the affairs of its major benefactor. This statement sounds kind of like it has a undercurrent of desperation because you've started to think about the adverse consequences to the U.S. if it got its wish and was actually thrown out of the U.N. so you are FUD'ing the concept.

The Chinese take the long view. I wager if they saw the chance to gain greater influence over the U.N. and to replace the U.S. as its leading contributor it would pony up $2-5 billion a year in a heart beat. The Chinese would pay it for the same reason the U.S. pays it, control and power.

"Having lived in Canada, you of all people should be aware of what would happen to the Canadian economy if the US was somehow forced to its knees. And if it came down to it, backs against the wall sort of thing..yes, I believe the US would invade Canada for its oil plus use its military to break any world embargo."

Just because I lived in Canada for a while doesn't actually mean I care when arrogant American assholes do what they normally do, and threaten to solve their problems at the end of a gun barrel.

You might not have noticed but your post is a case study in why the world increasingly despise America and Americans who think like you apparently do. Your arrogant and your first approach to solving every problem is waving your dick in the air.

"do you think the oil flow will just keep on a'coming if you kick the US out?"

Uh yea, the U.S. doesn't have any kind of monopoly on oil field technology as much as you would like to think they do. You are just showing your arrogance again, you really think the world can't survive without the U.S. and probably be a better place. Iraq oil production would probably go up if the U.S. got out, because the insurgents would probably stop blowing it up on a daily basis.

"If you kicked all of the US workers in the Saudi Oil fields alone, do you think they could keep up their production levels?"

Who cares if they do, if at the same time you cut off oil to the U.S. it would be a net gain for the world. Americans, who insanely spend 2 and 3 hours a day driving from the suburbs, usually solo, to their jobs are single handedly squandering a disproportionate share of a precious resource.

Cry wolf

[cyberlotnet]

And half the people on here thought it was all the US/FBI's fault, that we are the bad guys..

Go figure, It just wouldn't make sense to wait for the facts before opening ones mouth, Instead we slashdotters like to shoot from the hip

Cryptome

[tiny69]

Cryptome has a couple of pages on the subject, inclucing the original article and pictures that started this.

http://cryptome.org/fbi-imc.htm
http://cryptome.org/fbi-imc/fbi-imc-doc.htm
http://cryptome.org/rackspace-axe.htm

Something that's been bothering me...

[casuist99]

You cannot have a war on an inanimate object. Let me say that again: You cannot have a war on an inanimate object. That goes for drugs. Additionally: You cannot have a war against a tactic. "Terrorism" (of the sort seen in Iraq today) is a tactic which would have previously been covered by the adjective "guerilla" fighting.

Great how we let 3,000 people dying in a country of 260,000,000 eliminate some of our liberty that we're certain to never get back.

The concentration of power has been a society-destroying force in every major historic society. Think Roman Empire.

I think i'd prefer it if there WAS some "oceania" out there we could be at perpetual war with: at least it has borders which are easily defined. Terror is an excuse to use the military worldwide without checks and then to come after the citizens of your own country when they question the government's efforts to fight the terror.

Bottom line

[daveschroeder]

The bottom line here, for what it's worth, is that the US (or political agents within the US) had absolutely nothing to do with Indymedia's drives being seized, even though that's what 90% of the posters in the original article immediately assumed. And, on top of that, the ONLY reason the FBI was involved was because Rackspace, Indymedia's host, is a US company. However, the FBI itself did not do any of the seizing. MLAT complicates the issue, but the fact is that if they had hosted in the UK with, say, a UK company as opposed to a US company, there would have been ZERO US involvement, and the US involvement in this is merely a tertiary formality of MLAT. The FBI was obligated to pass on the request to Rackspace under MLAT, but in fact performed no enforcement duty, according to Rackspace itself and Indymedia.org's own report.

No doubt conspiracy theorists will still think it was some kind of US/Bush/GOP attempt to silence critics, when in reality Europe has no further to look than its own doorsteps - Italy and Switzerland - for the seizure requests...

Why they asked to remove the webpages

[ptitvert]

Hello,

Living in switzerland, I could hear quite often the news concerning this article.

At least concerning the Switzerland, I cannot say for Italie, the problem was that Indymedia was publishing some pictures of swiss cops under cover with 1 name, addresses from both cops.

From this point of view I can understand that it's quite dangerous for them to be exposed in such way.

here is an article (in french) http://www.edicom.ch/news/suisse/041009160849.sa.s html

if you want to read it by yourself!

LG

Re:Why they asked to remove the webpages

[BrookHarty]

The problem with this is, how do you show police abuse of a foreign country if our police will assist them in comvering up the event?

It's amazing, if this was Fox news reporting riots in G8 and police abuse pictures, it would stay on the air. (Not that FOX shows anything negative about police actions.)

Riot control is being censored in all media, hence Indie news agencies. Being here in Seattle, we saw the police mass arrest people, tear gas and physically assault peaceful protesters. The police chief had the local news agencies stop broadcasting, and they complied. (It was reported in the SeattleTimes about the "Blackouts")

I read that people are suing NY City because of the RNC mass arrests. They had to let people go who wouldn't plead guilty. So they arrest you, and you agree you commited a crime so they can fine you and let you go, after the RNC.

In the DNC they had people in "Protest Zones" aka, caged off areas with barb wire. Thats now how protesting works.

Police spending is up in Riot control. But what Riots? We hardly ever have real Riots with stores and property being damaged, but we do have people protesting.

Learn from history folks.

Just as Whites never saw the abuse of blacks in poor areas, Working people don't see the police abuse on peaceful protesters. LA's Blue Shield took years to bust, organized crime in our own freaking Police departments!

News is being censored, your freedoms eroded, polution is increasing, corporation crime is on the increase, people dieing in a police action.

We need to protect the Indie news agencies, its the only objecting voice in the crowd of sheep.

-
http://www.studentsfororwell.org

Summary attempt

[SignalFreq]

8 Sep 2004: Indymedianates publishes an article with photos of at least 1 (maybe 2?) undercover swiss police. Google cache of another site with pictures here. Translation of original Indymedia post.

Unknown date: FBI asks the post to be removed, but admitted no laws were violated: "The FBI agents told me that they were not concerned with the photos, but with the identifying information. There never was any such identifying information, and even if there was, it would likely be protected by the first amendment if it was obtained legally. (There was a recent case here in Washington that you may be familiar with on this very issue). But, even assuming it is illegal to post identifying information (which it is not), there WAS NO SUCH info. The FBI agents freely admitted to me that individuals have a right to take photographs of agents in public places and post those photos on the internet."

7 Oct 2004: Two Indymedia servers hosted by Rackspace (a US Company) but physically located in LONDON are taken. FBI agents are present at the seizure. No information is given other than the servers were taken. The order was issued to Rackspace (not Indymedia) and Rackspace was apparently barred from talking about it.

8 Oct 2004: Rackspace publishes that they turned over the servers in response to an order under MLAT (Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty).

8 Oct 2004: The AFP states that the request for the seizure originated with the Italian and Switzerland governments.

Info on Server Seizures & Indymedia

[Yeb]

Unknown agents have seized servers. They have yet to issue demands.

I'm the tech who had the contract with Rackspace. My blog has info about this, including copies of the rackspace trouble tickets:

http://jebba.blagblagblag.org

I'd like to clarify a few misconceptions I see in some slashdot comments (imagine that!):

daveschroeder wrote in comments (he also submitted this story to slashdot):
The bottom line here, for what it's worth, is that the US (or political agents within the US) had absolutely nothing to do with Indymedia's drives being seized, even though that's what 90% of the posters in the original article immediately assumed.

It is believed that it is the US State Department that had the drives (servers?) seized. You say the US had absolutely nothing to do with it? How about the Federal Order? Do you have info I don't have? Sounds very much like US agents are involved...

We do not know for certain whether it is related to Italy or Switzerland or somewhere else. It is a good guess, but still a guess. All we know is that it was a Federal Order from the U. S. of A.

ptitvert wrote in comments:
Indymedia was publishing some pictures of swiss cops under cover with 1 name, addresses from both cops.

Really? Did you ever see the post? I never saw a single name or address of a cop. There was just a newswire submission (very similar to a slashdot comment, except that it's multimedia enabled). See my blog and trouble tickets with rackspace for more info about this issue.

Also, folks write things like:
It could be a story they ran about the Swiss undercover police

Indymedia has feature articles and a newswire. Indymedia "ran a story about undercover cops" in the same way that CmdrTaco ran a story about your comments. Get it? FREE POSTING TO ANYONE WITH A FREAKING MODEM (npi).

Anyway, no one really knows what is going on, and that's the spooky part. I mean, the Feds just yanked the servers and never even contacted us once. And they still haven't. (Um, not that I'm inviting them over for coffee or anything...)

Look! They're just grabbing servers, no comments. This sucks folks, even if you loathe indymedia.

I know there is a lot of noise/spam/junk on indymedia, but there is on slashdot too... Since ANYONE can post, the posts are of greatly varying quality. But Indymedia has some of the best (if not the best) coverage from the street, especially at demonstrations. It does break news which is found no where else. It is extremely valuable for this alone.

Let's say there is a Swiss pharmaceutical company in Ohio that does something the Mexican cops don't like. Do the Swiss cops raid? The Mexicans? It seems we really have Team America: World Police.

The rockin' EFF has volunteered to represent me/indymedia pro bono. Very nice. :)

Have fun,

-Jeff

Re:Info on Server Seizures & Indymedia

[Yeb]

OK...

daveschroeder wrote:
Why are you not asking questions of the Swiss and the Italian authorities?

What makes you think we're not? People are trying to figure this out.

daveschoeder wrote:
You and I both know that the only reason the US was involved is because Rackspace is a US company.

I don't know that this is the only reason, and likely neither do you. In fact, what is your connection to this whole thing anyway?

daveschroeder wrote:
Now I realize that's laughable to many on slashdot: believing the FBI when it says it's not an FBI operation.

I'm glad people realize believing the FBI is laughable. They and the rest of the cops have certainly earned it. I don't necessarily think this is a FBI operation though, but I sure as hell don't trust their word.

daveschroeder wrote:
But the FBI proudly talks about its own investigations

Uh, you've got to be fucking kidding. Ya, I'm sure they talk proudly about some but they keep plenty in the dark. Hell, we still don't even know all the things that Hoover did over 25 years ago.

daveschroeder wrote:
I didn't say the US had nothing to do with anything relating to this
But, daveschroeder wrote in an earlier comment:
The bottom line here, for what it's worth, is that the US (or political agents within the US) had absolutely nothing to do with Indymedia's drives being seized, even though that's what 90% of the posters in the original article immediately assumed.

Anyway, I'm not going to continue showing your trollishness. I'm a bit busy.

I'll just add that the US certainly ain't standing up for Free Speech anymore. And their sense of justice is quite whacked since this is all done in the dark now.

Also, I'm not saying European govt's do no wrong. They're jacked too, especially that fascist running Italy.

Enjoy the spectacle,

-Jeff

Re:Oh no! - The first poster was correct.

[Sein]

Pal, you have *no* idea what you're talking about.

The Nazis were backed by corporate interests and were good Fascists. The Socialist tag was just a bit of Orwellian Newspeak thrown in to confuse the common worker who thought socialism was probably a Good Idea given how the Weimar Republic had worked them over.

Classifying them as leftist is buying into their Newspeak. Like all Fascist regimes, the name tag on their politics have little or nothing to do with their actual politics - which was pretty ordinary Corporate/Statist Fascism. Now, both the extreme Right and the Extreme left converge on dictatorships, but that doesn't mean that all dictatorships are extreme left.

Your assumptions are blinding you to the effect of Corporate Fascism and right-wing rethoric though, which is the point from the PoV of the current NewSpeak propagandists. I think a little rechecking of your assumptions might be in order.