Slashdot Mirror


The Extinction of the Programming Species

Max Goff writes "Given the recent chatter surrounding the extinction of the U.S. programmer, /. readers might also be interested in a series of articles I recently penned for java.net -- the Blacksmith and the Bookkeeper (part 1, part 2 and part 3) -- in which I posit that the postmodern programmer (the entire sub-species, not just those domiciled in the U.S.) shares much with the blacksmith of old, and will become just as extinct in relatively short order. It is not due to work visas or outsourcing, but has much more to do with the evolution of work itself."

55 of 491 comments (clear)

  1. The real reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Programmers can't reproduce without sex, and sadly, we're not getting any.

    1. Re:The real reason by Kenja · · Score: 3, Funny
      "Programmers can't reproduce without sex, and sadly, we're not getting any."

      And yet most of us try to reproduce asexualy on a daily bassis. In fact, most of the internet is geared to helping us.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    2. Re:The real reason by Rand+Huck · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hey, now, get out of the 70's. Nerds are starting to get increasingly popular with the ladies. They're starting to realize that computing is just about the most sexual thing, what with the fact that we connect male-female sockets together and even have kinky master-slave role playing stuff.

    3. Re:The real reason by rpozz · · Score: 4, Funny

      I think the really worrying thing about this post is that it has been modded 'Interesting'.

  2. Egad! by TheMediaWrangler · · Score: 5, Funny

    Somebody else RTFA! I don't want to know how I'm gonna die.

    --
    People should not fear what they do not understand; people should fear because they do not understand.
    1. Re:Egad! by Lehk228 · · Score: 4, Funny

      according to the article you will die from excess bullshit (at least that's what i got from the article)

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  3. The real reason-Test Tube Baby. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    " Programmers can't reproduce without sex, and sadly, we're not getting any."

    Why do you think test tubes were invented?

  4. I, Roboto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "It is not due to work visas or outsourcing, but has much more to do with the evolution of work itself."

    When we have robotic programmers, then I'll buy your argument.

  5. great news! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I will be graduating in december with a bachelor's of Computer Engineering. Just as all the other in my study program, we got work experience up'til now in programming, because that's where the job was. For 50 programmers there is about 1 engineering job offer. Now I have to find my first carreer-job.

    So my work experience and part of my academic background was all for nothing this says? Great news! Now that I've studied for more than 4 years, I learn it is going to be useless.

    I'm wondering how many other slashdotters feel like me at the moment. Extinction of the programmer species means for me that I lost a few years of my life and now I have to change my carreer. What about the other thousands like me?

    1. Re:great news! by smallpaul · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They have been predicting the demise of programmers since the invention of COBOL in the 60s. It was supposed to turn ordinary business users into programmers thanks to its easy, English-like syntax. We're still waiting. Now this writer is talking about "codeless development environments" which are (like the 5GLs and expert systems of yesteryear) supposed to replace programmers.

    2. Re:great news! by delco · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Now this writer is talking about "codeless development environments" which are (like the 5GLs and expert systems of yesteryear) supposed to replace programmers.

      The way I see it, if the current demand for software systems doesn't change, this argument may possibly hold *SOME* water. However, users keep pushing what they want onto the cutting edge of what current systems can do.

      For an analagous example, look at processing power. When companies come out with faster processors, do we just run the same applications, but now just faster? No. Not only do our standard applications do new and *cough cough* wonderful things, We find new and exciting uses for our extra processing power. which in turn pushes the need for even faster processors.

      It seems that the extra time made available by the eases of case tools, intelligent IDEs and more intuitive syntax is being put to use implementing more sophisticated architectures, developing more robust business logic and implementing more useable software overall.

      Without the increase in productivity associated with evolving programming tools (ie languages,environments,frameworks) would we have more programmers working on projects of the same scale as today, or the same number of programmers working on projects with less usability?

    3. Re:great news! by mitchus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The great thing about engineering is that it's very polyvalent! It's about the greatest education you can get, because up to a point (at least not within your lifetime) the basic principles are never obsolete, and lateral mobility is relatively easy. Remember, you're an engineer before you're a computer engineer! I wouldn't say that you've lost any years of your life. Maybe you can't work as a coder anymore, but if during this time you became a proficient programmer, just realize that this is something that will be useful to you throughout your life, regardless whether it's not your job anymore. You just might find that there are actually more interesting tasks than coding in the engineering field :) Anyway, don't throw the towel is all I'm saying. Cheerio

    4. Re:great news! by bitingduck · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Now that I've studied for more than 4 years, I learn it is going to be useless.

      College isn't a trade school, and you shouldn't treat it that way. The most important thing you learn in college is how to learn. In many, if not most, fields what you learn in college is outdated by the time you finish (if it wasn't when you started) but it does (or should) give you a strong background from which to learn other things. In graduate school you learn how to learn things that nobody knows yet.

      As an example, an undergraduate physics degree from a pretty decent school will get you to about the mid-1950s as far as physics knowledge, with a few little tastes of stuff from the 70s(and maybe even the present, if you work in someone's lab). You can fake your way into a lot of engineering jobs from there, and if you go to graduate school, you catch up to maybe the 70s (or even 80s and 90s) in a lot of areas, and you take one small piece of physics right up to the present day and become a world expert on it, adding new knowledge at the leading edge. All the stuff you learn along the way provides important context and background knowledge, but the most important thing you learn is how to obtain new knowledge. If you need any of that stuff that you didn't have time to learn (because the field has gotten very large) you at least get the tools to go back and catch up quickly. Computer Engineering has to be much the same, if not more so, since things are changing even faster than in physics.

    5. Re:great news! by singollo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The premise of the article is also similar to the kinds of arguments people were making in the '80s about expert systems:

      "We can develop inference systems for all these professions with voluminous, but highly specialized knowlege bases, and then we won't need the highly trained professionals anymore".

      This also harkens to a software engineering fantasy that we can standardize and simplify hard problems. There are many who disagree with this point of view, including Fred Brooks.

      An interesting take on the failures of software is Jaron Lanier's One Half of a Manifesto. (Actually even more enlightening is the debate that ensued around the manifesto (responses, reply).

    6. Re:great news! by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 3, Funny

      Now this writer is talking about "codeless development environments" which are (like the 5GLs and expert systems of yesteryear) supposed to replace programmers.

      Yeah, computers are going to take over the programming business because they have become so fast recently that they can solve the Halting Problem in five seconds flat.

    7. Re:great news! by Thangodin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I will say that I agree with him on hyper-human skills. Computers are being used in the wrong way. When I worked for a dot com, everyone was raving about alltheworld.com, a flash in the pan search engine. I pointed out that I didn't want 60,000 matches--I just wanted the one that I was really looking for. They all looked at me funny. Computers are being used to flood people with data. What they should actually be doing is giving people the few pieces of data they actually need. And nobody in the dot com world seemed to grasp this. They had no idea what people actually wanted or needed. As Winston Churchill put it, "Give me this day, on one sheet of paper, the following information..."

      But the current great extinction has nothing to do with any of the things he's talking about. It has to do with the outsourcing, the bust of the dot com bubble, and a popular belief that now that the dot com bubble has burst, you don't have worry about that computer stuff anymore (I kid you not--a lot of technophobes out there actually think it is all going to go away.)

      There is no question that programming will evolve, and that we will work at higher and higher levels in the future. But it is equally true that as the methods ramp up, so will the target, and competition to produce software that reaches that target quickly, efficiently, and easily will demand the best solution, which is always hand tweaked. Build by number tools are always general--2,000,000 lines of code used to do what 1000 lines would do better, because the code is literally written with no idea of what the real task is. And to use these high level tools effectively there are always "Tips, Tricks, and Traps," which require a background knowledge of the underlying architecture to grasp.

      And by the way, assembler still does everything better than anything else. Check out Gibson Research (http://www.grc.com/) for proof of that.

      As for genetic programming, allow me to contrast the hand coded solution to the genetically designed solution:

      Hand coded: 2 + 2 = 4;
      Genetic: 1 + 1 + 3 - (4 * 3) + 3 + (6/2) + 2.5 + 1.5 + ln(e) = 4

      Yeah, it will give you the right result... eventually. But if you want to read your email, you better book a couple days time with WETA's server farm. Not to mention that it takes as long to train one of these as it does a human--and it takes someone who knows a lot about computers (a very good programmer) to specify the criteria. A good example: the Pentagon wanted a genetic algorithm that could recognize a tank. They got one that seemed to work, until a new set of photos were used. It turned out that all the criteria photos with tanks were taken on a sunny day, and all the others were taken on a cloudy day. So if the sun is out, it's a tank. Doh!

      The more sophisticated the software is, the harder it is to fix when something goes wrong. Superficially simple applications for complex tasks are that much harder to diagnose and fix when they fail. Windows appears easy, until a bug rears its head, and then it takes thousands of man hours just to track down the cause. Linux has a steeper learning curve, but a core simplicity once you're over the hump. Simple software is simple because the brain is built in. But that doesn't mean that the brain will always work.

      Eventually, someone will have to go down and sing to the metal.

  6. Blacksmith? by nuclear305 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ok...without RTFA...since the blacksmith was generally replaced by industrial production (either directly or indirectly) ...does that mean programmers are going to be replaced by machines that can code on their own?

    If that's the direction TFA is taking...I highly doubt it. To quote the Borg Queen from ST: First Contact: "You are an imperfect being created by an imperfect being."

    Unless humans as a whole somehow reach perfection, we'll never be able to produce something to completely replace the human element.

    1. Re:Blacksmith? by drix · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Isnt this pretty obvious? Java and Python are two "machines" that allow me to forget about areas of programming that people had turned into veritable art forms just a decade ago, things like memory management and code portability. People who are still doing that kind of work are the technological equivalent of blacksmiths--still needed for some niche roles (kernel hacking, scientific computing), but by and large a relic. The same may be said for the ever-increasing (quality and quantity) assortment of code libraries available today, and for code reuse in general.

      I don't think this is a bad thing; I don't agree with the chicken little tone of this story. If we have a lot of blacksmiths--e.g. high skilled, labor-intensive jobs--dominating any given sector, they should be disappearing at a healthy clip. The US (or any country, for that matter) is left better off as a result. That's just plain and simple Econ. 101: technological advancement drives long term growth and prosperity. Programmers (esp. on Slashdot) are quick to lament the de-commoditization of their profession, because it means lower wages and more competition than that to which they became accustomed in the nineties. But there's no denying that in an overall, macro sense, having a nation full of Java programmers will result in much greater overall well-being than one of 10,000 C haxors and 250 million farmers.

      --

      I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
  7. It's all a fad by tomstdenis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Tools come and go. Knowledgeable people are here to stay. The problem is many people pretend to have knowledge in fields they're not experts.

    It's the same with diet/exercise. As the years go on new diets/plans come and go yet the old school traditional "just eat less crap, more good and get off your ass" philosophy is still here.

    Wanna make sure you're employable as a software developer? Make sure you're actually knowledgeable about the science *and* the field. It's good to know about things like Java/C++/etc but it's equally important to know about design theory, algorithms, math, etc.

    So if you signed up for some 6 month "computer science" program well don't blame the industry for your unemployable status. Code monkeys are a dime-a-dozen.

    Tom

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    1. Re:It's all a fad by cubicledrone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Knowledgeable people are here to stay.

      Well, at least until the next round of layoffs.

      Wanna make sure you're employable as a software developer? Make sure you're actually knowledgeable about the science *and* the field.

      You know, the animation industry is a good example of why this doesn't work. Disney laid off hundreds upon hundreds of totally irreplaceable feature animators over the past few years, most recently in Florida. These people were almost directly responsible for hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue to the company. But, they're too expensive.

      So to fuck all with their skill, experience and DIRECT INFLUENCE ON TOP-LINE REVENUE, out on their ass they went with their pencils and ink and an EIGHT-DECADE tradition of animation quality right after them.

      Companies don't give a fuck about skill or education. It's too expensive. They would much rather sell shit at a 50,000% markup and congratulate themselves at company parties.

      --
      Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
    2. Re:It's all a fad by frenetic3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Uh, I would imagine many of these people retrained as computer animators, which Disney, Pixar et al still need. The *tools* are different, but the core skills and concepts are the same whether it's ink and paper or Maya.

      And if not, hey, they could draw kickass invitations for those company parties. With bunnies and gold stars and shit. It's a win win, dude.

      -fren

      --
      "Where are we going, and why am I in this handbasket?"
    3. Re:It's all a fad by ericspinder · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Sure, knowing what's going on allows you to learn new stuff easily (look at all the C++ programmers who can code up Java once they have a 10 minute tutorial)
      I've seen this, and it ain't pretty. Hell, even most of the old C++ programmers will acknowledge their early Java code tries as misguided. What helps an experienced programmer the most is his (or her) 'general' knowledge of the task of programming itself. Moving from C++ to Java (IMHO) is something like moving from a motor cycle to a car. Sure the car's 4 wheels help balance (ie trash collection), but car can't fit though your old short cuts.
      One day, I think business apps will be programmed using tools something like Visio - drag and drop your 'web service' 'component' match up the inputs and outputs, and connect a GUI at one end (that provides inputs) and a DB 'component' at the other (to provide outputs).
      Bill Gates!, glad to see your here! AKA, they have been predicting this exact situation for the past couple of years. As one who has coded and worked with several web services, Bull Shit. It's not going to happen anytime soon, if ever.
      Something like this would be suitable for programming 99% of business applications and would be useable by 'business people', not dedicated programmers.
      Then those business people will say that they program. look on some resumes, you will eventually find someone who can 'program' MS Excel.
      As the tools improve (ie become more automated) you have to keep up with them, or become as anachronistic as the blacksmith mentioned.
      Sure you don't see too many black smiths around these days, but you do see...
      • Metallurgical Tech./Technician
      • Machinist
      • Machine shop workers
      • Steel workers
      • locksmiths
      • and many more...
      Just becuase they don't call themselves Black Smiths, doesn't mean that can't trace back to some guy standing over an avil, pounding away with a hammer.
      --
      The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
    4. Re:It's all a fad by Safety+Cap · · Score: 3, Insightful
      They did everything right, ~.
      No they didn't. They forgot one simple fact:
      2. Consider yourself a long-term contractor, not an employee. The company will discard you when it becomes expedient. You should be prepared to do the same.
      -- Ripples
      --
      Yeah, right.
    5. Re:It's all a fad by cubicledrone · · Score: 3, Informative

      Due to a sense of loyalty, tradition, and pride, Disney kept those artists employed long after they ceased to be profitable.

      Absolute nonsense. Lilo and Stitch was their most recent film. It was so "unprofitable" (over $260 million at the box office) that Disney has published several DVDs and a made television show from it. Disney kept the animators employed for a whole year before firing the entire studio. Oh, and they were so concerned about wasting money that they flushed the project they were working on (and all the money that had been spent) down a toilet.

      Audiences today just don't like to watch untextured, cell-based cartoons anymore.

      Really? There are 400 animation studios in Japan. Spirited Away won the Academy Award for best animated feature. The anime industry earns $4.3 billion a year in revenues. Pokemon's total market exceeds $30 billion.

      The last hugely successful

      Disney

      cell-based film was Lion King

      Home On the Range, was not a bad movie, but it made no money, because today's viewers want something else.

      Yeah, like a writer. There are eight shelves of anime at Best Buy. There is an entire cable network that runs anime 24 hours a day. Some of the highest-rated shows on television are anime. Today's viewers want quality. Disney just doesn't want to pay for it.

      --
      Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
  8. Ok by cubicledrone · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is not due to work visas or outsourcing, but has much more to do with the evolution of work itself

    Nonsense. It has to do with the wholesale re-negotiation of the social contract between business and the society it sells to.

    Business is no longer satisfied with the simple model of building a product and selling it. That would require work, investment, long-term planning and respect for the skill, education and loyalty of their employees.

    Much better, business says, to sell all of that and simply manufacture brands. The modern workplace is therefore obsolete, because business does not want to pay for it. It's really that simple. People are only useful if they are opening their wallets at a cash register. They are not worthy to be employed and paid a fair wage.

    There are voluminous statistics to support this, but a few should be sufficient. In the last few years, corporate assets have increased 288%. Employee compensation has increased 9%.

    Over half of the working-age population is either a temp, part-time, unemployed or out of the workforce entirely. Read it again: HALF OF THE WORKING-AGE POPULATION IS NOT EMPLOYED FULL-TIME. Companies have no respect for anything: skills, education, experience are all totally meaningless to these companies. ALL that matters is money. That's why it takes five interviews and a credit-check to get hired, but only an e-mail to be fired.

    Unless, of course, we're discussing the price tags of all these "brands." Then, it's "you get what you pay for." Like $2500 for a mattress and $4500 for a television, $175 for a basket of groceries and $50,000 for a car. It's nonsense, of course, but everyone's too busy arguing about the problem. Nobody is interested in hearing the facts. All that matters is money.

    --
    Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
    1. Re:Ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      HALF OF THE WORKING-AGE POPULATION IS NOT EMPLOYED FULL-TIME.

      This is a good thing. Read it again: This is a good thing.

      Why do they pay you to work? Because you wouldn't do it for free. What happens when people retire? They have enough assets so that they no longer have to work for a living, and so generally promptly quit.

      Medieval serfs had 100%, full-time employment. Even better, they were employed 18 hours a day instead of a mere eight. Shame that modern businesses have slashed our workday in half! Shame that modern business have slashed the workforce in half!

      Increased productivity so that not everyone need be engaged in a constant minute-to-minute struggle for existence every minute of every day is a benefit, not a drawback.

    2. Re:Ok by BrainInAJar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Medieval serfs didn't work for an hourly wage, modern employees do.

      The problem isn't a lack of employment, The problem is insufficient compensation to keep you in a human standard of living

      Increased productivity is good for keeping business profits up, but it's no good at all for keeping people fed and clothed

  9. Postmodern(Apple) != Postmodern(Orange) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem lies in the definitions. A bookkeeper of today is nothing like a bookkeeper of the 19th century. The "postmodern" bookkeeper is dependent on a new set of tools -- software written by those outmoded programmers, even. They no longer calculate books by hand, but use automated tools, and they're not so concerned with tracking business' money as they are with audits, GAAP, and finding interesting new ways to conjure a penny more than consensus earnings estimates from the Street.

    Similarly, the role of "blacksmiths" evolved. Today, you might call them machinists, or perhaps they're the assembly-line workers. You don't see many blacksmiths making auto parts by hand, but then you don't see many bookkeepers calculating General Electric's quarterly results by hand, either.

    It's merely a linguistic quirk that we retained the occupational title for "descendant job 1" and not "descendant job 2". Recall that "computers" themselves were once human beings that did arithmetic.

    Similarly, programmers aren't going away, though we may stop calling them "programmers" and the day-to-day details of their methods and tools will change.

    And if you are concerned simply with a narrow focus on specific methods of today, then programmers have already survived the postmodern shift. As scarce as blacksmiths are professional programmers who key in word values with switches on the front on their machine, and almost as scarce as those that deal with any significant amount of assembly language. Programmers and their tools have already evolved with time, and a modern programmer mucking about in .NET RAD would be nearly as alien to a systems programmer of forty years ago as a machinist with CAD-driven power machine tools would be to the blacksmith of four hundred years ago.

  10. No Knuth? by Eric+Giguere · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The reader comments on these articles are themselves interesting. I especially think this one is telling: "As a Java programmer I haven't looked up searching and sorting algorithms in Knuth". Being a Java programmer myself, I can certainly appreciate having these kinds of algorithms in a standard library. I still think you should spend some time with Knuth or some other book (or online documentation) and understand how they work. That's one problem I see, not enough programmers today learning the fundamentals and just letting the libraries do all the hard lifting for them.

    Eric
    Thanks to All-Bran, William Shatner 'goes like no man has gone before'

    1. Re:No Knuth? by darkstar949 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There are already some industry specific programming systems - I say systems, because they are not really languages - that use flow charts and diagrams to generate instructions instead of pseudo-code or a high-level language like Visual Basic.
      However, the parent does raise a valid point - many of my co-workers are good at putting widgets together and doing similar tasks, but don't really know what to do when they need to think in terms of embedded environments or program optimization.

  11. Oh, I see now. by RealProgrammer · · Score: 5, Funny
    From TFA, this clears it all up:
    But as we will see, the impact on the exogenous environment of remittable activities of autonomous agents can be profound indeed.

    At first I thought, "Of course! Everybody knows that." My wife and I were just chatting about that last night before bed. (Maybe the rest of you should use romantic talk like that, and you'd get some more often.)

    Then I realized that the author knew way more words than I do. He must be right.

    --
    sigs, as if you care.
  12. Codeless Development by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A proof of the demise of the programmer the article points out:

    The advent of the Codeless Development Environment (CDE)

    I wonder if these "Codeless Development" environments are they themselves written in a codeless environment. If you have ever coded in a pure gui environments with boxes and connectors and such you will quickly learn the limitations.

  13. Machists by gingda · · Score: 3, Informative

    Your analogy only works if you insist that the names used to describe the professions haven't changed.

    The need to pump a belows and pound on the iron with a hammer may have vanished, but the need for people skilled at using tools to produce parts for other tools is still filled quite comfortably by machinists.

    And they still get paid pretty well.

  14. The analogy is not right by vmaxxxed · · Score: 4, Insightful


    While I think that programmers are "evolving", the
    analogy with "Blacksmith and the
    Bookkeeper" is not right.

    Bookkeepers, blacksmiths, even secretaries are
    disappearing because their jobs can be automated and computers are taking over.
    Programmers are disappearing because of a different reason. It is not because computers are
    taking over us; to this day no computer can write a program or fix a bug.

    I believe that the problem is that the software is
    becoming so complex that what could have been done by one-person years ago, takes a team
    these days. I remember that in 1991 I wrote several systems like inventory managers, stuff
    like that. Today you require testers, DBA expert, GUI designers...

    I think it is more like what happened to the
    aviation industry. In the 1900 you could build your own airplane, there were people building
    airplanes all over the world. Today, only a few companies can do that,
    and the demand for airplane-building skills is gone. Well, not gone,
    its just that it has changed, now you have to specialize in some area, you can not know ALL what
    is required to build an airplane. ( well, unless you are Burt Rutan)

    I think that software is evolving the same.
    Eventually we will have to specialize in GUI, or DB or whatever. The generic programmer is not
    disappearing, just evolving. ( Read with Hannibal Lecters accent. )

    My 2 cents...
    -Ale

  15. Again, myths and rumors by Headius · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Posting my comment from the other "extinction" article here...

    These judgement day scenarios are based on a big fallacy I haven't yet seen addressed:

    The market for software developers is not standing still; it's growing tremendously. We're just not seeing it because a lot of new development is going overseas. However, there's no sign that the demand is going to slow down, and there's not an infinite number of tech workers overseas.

    Already Indian workers are concerned about having their own tech bubble, as other countries start coming online with cheaper workers. China, Phillipines, and others are starting to take work away from India.

    Further, despite claims to the contrary, it's not just as easy to move programming jobs overseas as it is for manufacturing jobs. Indian programmers aren't just plucked from the trees...they've gone through years of training and education just like we have. It costs a lot more time and money to train a programmer than to train an assembly-line worker. Again, there are not infinite resources available. It just seems that way because India has been building up a highly-trained workforce for a long time--without work to give them.

    Our own tech boom and bust resulted in scads of untrained, unskilled workers getting paid too much to do too little. Reality check: there's no such thing as an HTML programmer. Writing VB is not going to earn you $50/hr. If you don't like what you're doing, you're not in the right line of work. The lion's share of jobs lost to offshoring are jobs that were filled by wannabes during the .com years. I personally know at least 5 administrators and programmers that refused to ever accept a lower-paying job when things went bad. They lost their cars, their houses, and their dignity as a result, and all for a job none of them liked doing in the first place.

    Finally, as other posts have noted, the cost of paying a programmer is not the largest portion of developing software. Gathering requirements, testing, working with customers and clients, managing change, administering systems; all enter into it and have similar contributions to the overall cost. In the case of offshoring, almost all of these become more expensive...in some cases much more expensive.

  16. Their totally right!! by __int64 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Look, that technology is already here!!
    Behold, a program which is capable of designing a new program!!

    #include <stdio.h>
    int main ( void )
    {
    FILE * output = fopen ( "c:\\newprogram.c", "w" );
    fprintf ( output, "#include <stdio.h>\nint main ( void )\n{\nprintf(\"hello world!\");\nreturn 0;\n}" );
    fclose ( output );
    return 0;
    }

    Were all doomed you fools!!

    1. Re:Their totally right!! by CableModemSniper · · Score: 3, Informative
      char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34,10); }%c";main(){printf(f,34,f,34,10);}

      Oh no, now they're self-replicating! Ruuun!

      --
      Why not fork?
  17. Reality check by wombatmobile · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Extinction of the programmer species means for me that I lost a few years of my life and now I have to change my carreer.

    If it happened, but it hasn't.

    To succeed as a programmer, develop better powers of discernment (by observing others you respect) and learn how to maintain confidence in your decisions.

  18. I Read this Goofy Article About... by Trolling4Dollars · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ..."self writing programs in the armchair IT publication "PC World". I think it was the July or August edition. It was about this company that is writing the "next generation" of development tools. They suggest that in the near future everyone will be a programmer because this new approach basically lets anyone build their own applications by pointing and clicking and writing basic text descriptions of what they want the application to do. Then this development environment sets out to building the application to their specs.

    To me, I thought... "Aha! He wants to make programming go the way that word processing and data entry did after the 80s". For the youngsters in the audience, believe it or not, but there used to be a very short lived period of time when people went to school to learn how to become word processors or data entry specialists. As soon as GUI based word processing and office suites were released, those people lost their jobs because "anyone could do the tasks". Is that really true though? Read on...

    Yes, it is true that pretty much anyone who is plunked down in front of GUI based word processing software or an office suite can build a pretty impressive looking document. It doesn't require schooling anymore, just some introduction and you're off. But, does that mean that same person can design a glossy publication like a magazine or even a well done news letter? No. What about the person who can set up a basic spreadsheet? Would you want them being the DBA for your Oracle database? Probably not. So the titles have changed and the availability of jobs shrunk. I think you're going to see the same thing with programming.

    There probably will be a point when the average office jockey will be able to build a basic application for use in their workplace. But that guy isn't going to be a programmer and the program he built isn't going to be efficient, compact or reliable. Programmers will still be needed, but just not in the way that they are now. It's likely that programmers will become more specialized. (Just like you now have graphic design people who are the extension of the more talented word processors of the late 70s) Programmers aren't going to disappear. They are going to become something else.

  19. BZZT! Wrong, sorry! by Safety+Cap · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... from the article, the author states that 'coding is dead' because

    The advent of the Codeless Development Environment

    Ahh, the mythical Blue Unicorn; users will be able to make their own Uber Apps and developers will sink into the La Brea Tar Pits. That could be the case if development was only banging code. It is actually deconstructing a business process/issue into manageable chunks, then writing code to make those chunks work together. I have yet to meet a business person who can explain the function of their job in a linear process, so there is no way that person could write their own program, unless you had a magical CDE that could translate abstract, random process descriptions into real code (forget about efficient code/processes).

    The emergence of the software factory

    Ahh, the anonymous factory that churns out components that our business person can then assemble into a working application? Been there, tried that with EJB. Somehow that whole promise of component EJBs never really took off. I wonder why? Could it be that this idea is CRAP? Hmm...

    The decrease in the number of programming jobs in IT

    Non Sequitur. The number of quality jobs aren't decreasing. The monkeys that thought they could get a MCSE and start making $65k with no experience are (hopefully) flushed out of the pool. Soon the monkeys who are unable to do the work of Business Analyst/Junior Project Manager will also be gone/outsourced. The jobs are there; you just have to know how to look for them.

    Fewer students enrolled in computer science courses

    Another non-sequitur. A degree means nothing in terms of fitness for doing a job---except to PHBs who don't know how to judge a candidate's worth other than by dead trees (resume/degree: equally worthless). You can certainly be a good developer without having ever taken one college class. What matters is skill, experience, adaptability, talent, and self motivation to learn new stuff.

    More:

    When was the last time you cracked open one of Knuth's volumes? Do you even know who Knuth is?

    Yes, last week, in fact. I've been plowing through Vol 3 looking for a better way to search a bunch of stuff across multiple iSeries/DB2 files. So what? Reading Knuth doesn't mean you're a better code monkey. It can help, but just like any other resource, it is in the application. Einstein said something to the effect that the most important fact one could know is the Library's address.

    --
    Yeah, right.
  20. Heard it all before by Beatlebum · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In the 80's when I was studying for my first degree in C.S. (yes, I'm an old fart), the fad of the time was formal methods. The basic idea is this: a problem is specified using a formal language, the specification is then translated into code automatically. This was supposed to herald the end of imperative programming languages and programmers. The major flaw was assuming anyone could put together a specification in the first place.

  21. AI can already pen better articles than this tripe by guidryp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Slashdot will become extinct if they keep posting this mindless dreck.

    I posit that AI out there can already write articles better than this dreck. So perhaps Dreck writing should already be extinct, but here we yet again see more dreck on /.

    About the time we have code writing AI, we will have passed Vinge Singularity and all professions will be extinct.

    I have to wonder if the author ever worked on anything other than web pages. Or very simple coding issues.

    I work in telecom with a university educated work force (including PHDs and Masters degrees) and these folks have a tough time building quality systems given the constantly changing requirements , competitive demands and huge complexity of the systems.

    Complexity is only increasing as we go forward. In almost any field you now have much larger programming teams working on more complex problems.

    This is as Naive as when the thought high level laguages (moving from assembly) Cobol, Visual Basic, OOP, 4GL, 5GL etc... would eliminate programming as a profession.

    As the tools became more powerfull, the problem space became more complex. If anything there has been a push beyond the toolsets and coding today is more difficult than it has been in the past, rather than simpler.

    Programming large scale complex systems is so difficult now that hardly any groups out there consider it manageable.

    If there is any profession where we currently can't easily get a handle on, it is programming in the large. Once you have AI that can handle this, what couldn't it do?

  22. Context matters... by hagbard5235 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You do realize that historically it is normal for around 35-40% of the non-institutionalized working age (ie not imprisoned or commited) population not be employed?

    ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat1.t xt

    And if you'd like to see about part-time workers you can get recent statistics here:

    http://www.bls.gov/webapps/legacy/cpsatab5.htm

    Please note, there's nothing wrong with a part of the population being employed part time by choice. The BLS statistics differentiate these as people employed part time for economic/non-economic reasons... if you look at the stats you'll see around 4-5 million people are employed part-time for economic reasons. You can find those stats here:

    http://www.bls.gov/webapps/legacy/cpsatab5.htm

    According to the BLS the labor force is around 150 million:

    http://www.bls.gov/webapps/legacy/cpsatab1.htm

    Out of a labor force of around 150 million that means that we have about 3-4% of the labor force working part time because they can't get full time work. While I'd prefer this to be a lower percentage, it doesn't seem to be a great and shocking problem.

    Also, would you please source your data above. Absent primary sourcing I've absolutely no reaon to believe your facts.

  23. my take on the article by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1. Article is a bit wordy. If the author's Java code is as wordy as that article, then no wonder he sees code generators replacing him. The trick is factoring repetition so that you don't need code generators. If Java is not dynamic enough to factor, then use Python or Lisp or the like.

    2. Automation has NOT been a significant factor in my domain. Code generators are usually used by people who write bloated code to begin with. OOP's poorly-defined relationship with relational databases has also created a demand for tools attempting to bridge that gap by generating code. If anything, this OO/R conflict increased demand for coders. (Note I am not bashing OO here, just saying there is a philosophical conflict with relational that has yet to be resolved, resulting in tedious translation efforts.)

    3. AI is irrelavant because cheaper bandwidth means that machines and people can hook up with cheap overseas human brains. Why invent cheap brains when we have billions of starving eager brains around the world?

    4. I don't see bookkeeping safe from the same forces. As more and more transactions are electronic, your bookkeeper can be in Asia also, along with the coders. Programmers may be the first hit, but I doubt they will be the last.

  24. Goff has no idea what he is talking about by Flyboy+Connor · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Goff thinks AI will be able to take over the job of a programmer. Hah! What a ridiculous notion. Evidently he fell for some vague claims of specialists in genetic programming, of which he understands nothing himself. Well, evolutionary algorithms (of which genetic programming is a subclass) are one of my specialities too. And I can tell you that, while evolutionary algorithms are fun to toy with, and can be used for some interesting real-life applications, they will never be able to design complete programs for us. And why is that? Because their results are notoriously untrustworthy. You will only use them for problems for which you can't design a solution by hand, and for which you are satisfied with an approximate solution. Most applications are simply not like that. Furthermore, evolutionary algorithms can only be applied to problems for which a fitness function can be designed. I wonder what Goff thinks a fitness function for a Word Processor looks like.

    Obviously, Goff knows nothing about the practice of computing science. But he still manages to hawk out three crappy articles about it. Which get on the /. frontpage... Man, that guy is good.

  25. The arguement is flawed by LittLe3Lue · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First of all, your argument comparing programmers to blacksmiths is already a counter-proof for what you are saying.

    Sure, we don't have many blacksmiths, but let's look at the role of a blacksmith:

    All they did was make things out of metal. They were what we now replaced with machines. The few innovative blacksmiths, who created new advances, were what are now engineers. Nothing has changed - only evolved. And what was once a role for a person is no longer.

    Now, you are saying that there will be no need for programmers in the same sense of how we no longer need blacksmiths. But I ask you, do we have a programmer re-type every line of code for each and every piece of software that is sold? Because that would be the role of a 'blacksmith' programmer.

    A programmer (or large group of) writes the first piece of software, which must usually be innovative, or better then what exists, in order to provide a use. Sure, there are countless pieces of code being re-written, or written poorly, but that is more for learning than for business, at least if they plan to survive. And when there are copies of software in the mainstream it is merely for economical competition, which will never change.

    With the open source movement, or even with API's of old, there is no need to write every line of code over again, but rather to use them to make whatever new piece of software it is that you are planning to make. This involves making software that has never existed, which cannot be automated.

    So I conclude that software programmers have never from the start been blacksmiths, or at least have not been for a very long time. What we provide is a constantly changing, evolving, and adapting use of logic in the form of code. No automation will ever replace that.

    The number of programmers will not be decreasing to extremely low numbers either, since the more advanced software becomes the harder it is for individuals to create it. Large groups are required, for long periods of time (How long does it take to make a new game or operating system compared to 20 years ago).

    You argument is not only wrong in practice, but wrong in theory. It's ridiculous.

  26. Re:The Future for Nerds by ltsmash · · Score: 3, Insightful


    I wonder if once nerds lose their jobs and therefore their money, they will return to the bottom of the social pyramid again.

    I'm not sure if you're just trying to troll, but there is a lot of truth in this. When I was in my 20's, before so many people were making so much money with software, a nerd was an extremely pejorative term to call someone. Today people in our industry get so much more respect. I fear that once money starts leaving high tech, we will again be returned to this position.

  27. Some Vogon poetry, please! by The+Pim · · Score: 4, Funny
    It would be a relief after this!

    Before more fully exploring the thesis of software developer as reified smithy, an examination of the role of the bookkeeper would be prudent, for the sake of juxtaposition, comparison, forecasting and nuance.

    I'm begging someone to take away this blow-hard's keyboard.

    --

    The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
  28. Rockstars and Orchestral Musicians by vkg · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There's a better model than blacksmiths: musicians.

    Before the advent of recorded music, if you wanted music, you paid musicians to come around and play it for you. It was expensive to keep them, they became status symbols, but they were commonplace in wealthy households and courts.

    After recorded music came, the number of musicians required dropped off amazingly. Just tanked.

    Programmers are increasingly headed in that direction because of automation: better and better libraries, software packages with increased configurability, better management of software projects. It's gradually getting easier to make a given problem go away with fewer and fewer programmers.

    The countertendancy - as large problems become cheaper to solve, more people pay for them to be solved - is sustaining us for the moment, but there is no guarentee that those two forces will remain in step indefinitely.

    But even in the age of fluidly configurable, massively integrated software packages (try: Apache 2, MySQL4 and WordPress - millions of lines of code with a nice user interface, and all it does is run your blog) there's still a need for the "rockstars" - the programmers who actually produce those systems.

    Professional musicians these days have to fight to stay in the game, and they have to be really, really good at *something* even if it's just pouting on posters.

    Programming is going the same way: it's no longer the easy option. If you're programming right now for a reason other than "I'm really good at this" or "I love this" and, preferably, both - get out of the game while you still have an income. You have less than ten years, possibly more like five.

    Two more jobs, if you're lucky.

    But for the rest of us? The people who can hack it under these conditions? I think it's going to be a return to the Golden Age of Hacking - the time when it was a game for the profoundly talented and educated - rather than these hordes of analgorithmic munchkins we've been competing with for years.

    Rock star programmers, dude. Not garage mechanics, rock stars. You can see it already in the celebrity accorded to people like Linus, or EvHead. As software is increasingly "one hit, one kill" - packages which simply dominate an entire category - that kind of rapid rise and fall is going to be the norm, rather than the exception, in the publically popular software sphere.

    That's the rock star niche.

    And the rest of us will be like those touring rock bands you see all over America, or the players at your local symphony hall.

  29. pompous and vapid at the same time by uncadonna · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I don't see much of interest in the article beyond some amazingly bad writing. In fact, someone who writes this badly in their own native language is almost invariably not worth listening to.

    I think the author was rewarded in school for writing long sentences with big, trendy words. This sort of ridiculous blather is the result.

    Some of my favorites:

    • Overuse of double quotes: It is important to note that autonomous agents compete to "make a living" in a fitscape, and as such tend to fill all possible "life sustaining" niches such as to provide for their specific "needs."
    • Wordy and vapid way of saying "sometimes economic activity changes the economy": While this may seem painfully obvious, when it comes to the study of economics, that feedback mechanism (i.e., the fitscape evolves as a result of agent activities) is often dismissed; a function of exogenous variables which are outside the scope of consideration for the problem in question.
    • Is this a poetic essay or a dry academic analysis? Try not to change your mind in the middle of a sentence please. Grotesque neither-fish-nor-fowl writing. At first, the smithy was not aware that his hammer would soon ring no more, that machines would take the place of hammer and anvil, more efficiently creating the tools and weapons for an increasingly sophisticated cultural milieu.
    • Sixth grade level spelling error. A possesive is not a plural. Smithy's also made the tools that were necessary for the daily household chores, such as pots and pans for the fireplace.
    • Uhh, "first order derivative"? If this doesn't rub you the wrong way you've never had a calculus class. There's no law against that, of course, but this comes in a paragraph about the scientific method! And the essence of measurement, in a capitalist system, will always be a first-order derivative of the much-maligned bottom line--it's not personal, it's just business.
    • Let me introduce you to the idea of a dictionary. "rubric" means "name", or at best "name of category". Applying a similar rubric to the postmodern computer programmer might now yield some insight as to the coming fortunes of that trade.
    • (add your own comment here, I'm ovewhelmed) The anarchistic, eclectic, and often incoherent ramblings that characterize much of the Pomo Jones mindset belie the importance and value it may conceptually provide. Computer programmers are icons of the postmodern age and sometimes idiosyncratic of its nature. As much as film, and more than television, architecture, or art, the postmodern programmer has enabled the cyber-collage, globally diverse viewless worldview that is the hallmark of Pomo entrails. Indeed, computer programmers (those of the Java, C#, and Perl caste, at least) are the Pomo elite.
      uh-huh
    • and here I thought it was about algorithm and syntax... Today, programming means breaking the bounded, solitary-node paradigm, enjoining a network that is effectively limitless but unique at every node.
      Sure, they'll mechanize that one any day...
    • Ooh, let's throw in a random bit of computer history to show we know something about computers. But just as the entire notion of "writing code" has changed dramatically since the earliest _stacked job batch systems_ [link to an undergrad CS lecture] of the 1960s ...
    • "ignorant"? The vast majority of coding today is ignorant of such constraints.
    • Do you know anyone who talks like this? The fact that the nature of programming is changing even as the demand for programming skills has abated, to serve what is otherwise an increasing global demand for IT-related products, should be a glaring indicator and something of a concern to skeptics; even the computer industry is not immure from the ephemeralizing virtuous cycles wr
    --
    mt
  30. Damn... by natet · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I knew I should have studied accounting...

    Seriously though. I believe that the same things he uses to point to the demise of the programmer could also be applied to his test case of the bookkeeper. I believe that it would be nearly as easy to create a "bookkeeping factory" as it would be to truly create a "Programmer factory". But, I don't believe that either of them are going to happen any time soon.

    Other pieces of his logic are suspect as well. Yes there has been a decline in the number of computer science students enrolled, but the article doesn't say if that statistic takes into account the number of students enrolled in Information Technology majors, or other related majors. I know that a lot of the students that started in Computer Science with me eventually switched to Business Information Technology to avoid having to take all the math required in CS.

    --
    IANAL... But I play one on /.
  31. Some kinds of programming are already dead. But... by argent · · Score: 4, Insightful

    30 years ago, a large percentage of the programmers out there were writing what was basically spreadsheet code. Some manager needed some information, and that meant a programmer had to write a program to read data, generate reports, and add them to the daily jobs. Then came spreadsheets, and the manager could do that work instead. The programmer was out of a job...

    Well, no. Instead, he worked on more sophisticated analyses, software that didn't fit in Visicalc or Lotus 1-2-3.

    Time after time over the decades there's been predictions that some new productivity tool was going to replace programmers. It hasn't happened. Because what a programmer does, basically, is to do the things that people havethought up that haven't yet become popular enough or common enough to be canned in a tool.

    The advent of the Codeless Development Environment

    If what you're doing doesn't involve code, it's not development, it's configuration. And that's great, because having programmers wasting time on configuration is a drag on productivity. Anything you already know how to do, that you've already written code to do, you don't do it again. If you do, well, that's a problem you need to fix, write a program to do it, go on to something else...

  32. I know a blacksmith and he ain't extinct by FirstNoel · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Chances are if you're a blacksmith in this day and age, you're actually in pretty high demand. My father-in-law does it as a side "hobby". Sells some of his stuff a local craft shows, demonstrates at schools...he's really good, and people are willing to pay decently to get him to make them stuff.

    There may come a time when we need fewer programmers, like blacksmiths. But those that are will be special "craftsman". We'll just have to change our style to fit with the times.

    Adapt or die...the way of nature.

    Sean D.

    --
    "Hmm. I am to metaphor cheese as metaphor cheese is to transitive verb crackers!"
  33. Evolution by DaChesserCat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The author posits that blacksmithing has died out, while bookkeeping has continued, because the knowledgebase that the blacksmith needed was ripe for scientific analysis and automation, while the bookkeeper has to deal with constantly changing requirements. Therefore, since bookkeepers have to always change/upgrade/modify/tweak their craft, they aren't as likely to be automated.

    He asks how many people are acquainted with a bookkeeper, and how many are acquainted with a blacksmith. No, I'm not acquainted with many blacksmiths. How many mechanical engineers, or mechanics am I acquainted with? More than bookkeepers, I'm afraid.

    The trade of blacksmithing, where one person forges, casts and manufactures something, cradle to grave, is largely gone. However, there are an extensive number of people in this world who know how to shape metal into useful things; I believe they're better known, these days, as engineers. They may not do the actual bending, machinging, forging, etc., but they do the design, which is something a blacksmith did. Also, mechanics may not manufacture their parts (something to which the author alludes), but blacksmiths were ALSO responsible for repairing existing items. Sometimes, that meant fabricating a part, sometimes that meant taking a pre-fabricated part and applying it (or modifying a similar part) to get it working. Mechanics do that, these days, and they have a much larger catalog of pre-fabricated parts to work with, so they don't typically NEED to fabricate a part for the job. Although, in my shade-tree mechanic experience, I've been known to take an existing, not-quite-what-I-needed part, and make it work.

    So, while the trade of blacksmithing, as a cradle-to-grave manufacturer, mechanic and engineer has diminished, the different roles they played have spawned their own career fields. Engineers use machines to produce much larger quantities of parts than traditional craftsmen could manage, and their quality is more consistent. Is this the demise of a trade, or simply the application of technology to improve its productivity? I would argue that, if you took all the people who are now working in roles which blacksmiths once filled, the various sub-fields of blacksmithing have MORE people working in it than the bookkeeping field.

    I develop websites, for internal use, for my employer. The language and technologies I use were pretty well evolved before I finished college and went to work in this career field. I don't have to code machine language or even assembly; some other developer developed the tools I use. Because I don't have to re-invent the wheel every time my boss wants a new web app, my productivity is much higher. The original programmers were the "blacksmiths" of this field; they created some practical, useful things for their clients, and they create tools which improved their own productivity. Their tools led to the development of other tools. Consequently, there are few if any programming "blacksmiths" in the world today; most all programmers are engineers, mechanics, or factory workers feeding the automated systems. The titles just haven't changed; that's all.

    As for bookkeeping not being as ripe for automation, how many bookkeepers do you know who would be willing to go back to pen and paper? Give up their calculators? Give up their computers? I'm willing to be the answer is very few. Their field has also benefitted from automation; a bookkeeper today, with his computers and software, is at least a couple orders of magnitude more productive than an old "quill and paper" bookkeeper of a couple centuries ago. However, the title has changed little, although the career has changed significantly.

    As a programmer, I see the technologies I'm working with evolving on a regular basis; I have to adapt to those changes, like the bookkeeper in his analogy. Does that mean that my career will become extinct? I sincerely doubt it; I'll probably be more productive ten years from now, but I sincerely doubt that an automated softwar

    --
    ... by the Dew of Mountains the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning
  34. My "academia" meter was flying high by JavaRob · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe you guys didn't catch this sure-fire sign of overly-academic writing (sometimes also found outside academia, alas):

    The pomo coder stripe has evolved into something quite different than what it once may have been.

    You probably thought that word was "porno" -- but no, it's short for post-modern, and it's thrown around all the time for no good reason in academia. I stopped reading the article after seeing that, and a smattering of insofars and posits when I flipped ahead to part 2. Oh yeah, and I ran into this:

    But as we will see, the impact on the exogenous environment of remittable activities of autonomous agents can be profound indeed.

    Indeed, indeed. That's a great sign that you are reading a paper that will take thousands and thousands of words to argue something that could have been said in three crisp, short paragraphs. Nothing against the writer -- he's got a great vocabulary, and he's using the words correctly... but you see this all the time in academic writing, because "it just doesn't sound right" without a few latin phrases and a "dialectic" or two, because everyone around you is writing like this, too. Sadly, it only complicates or even loses the real argument, and most of your readers who have never been force-fed this kind of fare and made to like it will also be lost. So, to the author: Fight the impulse!! Turn away from the dark side! Therein lies a twisty maze of passages, all alike....