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Press freedom

GarconDuMonde writes "Reporters San Frontiers has released it's third annual worldwide index of press freedom. Although the majority of top-ranking countries are from northern Europe, it is perhaps more interesting to note where countries such as Switzerland, Italy, the UK and the USA fall (1, 39, 28 and 22, respectively)."

27 of 598 comments (clear)

  1. Isn't Switzerland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The country responsible for getting the Indymedia servers pulled?

  2. Americans talk about freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... but don't practice it. It's pretty sad when you have to cringe every time you hear "... land of the free ..." Not that the U.S. is a bad place to live, mind you. The United States is the best place to live if you happen to like money.

    1. Re:Americans talk about freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That sort of makes the OP's point for them.
      Guess what? There are many many other countries where that very same situation applies.

      I think the OP was saying that Americans love to pretend they are the only country that gets it right when it comes to ensuring people's freedoms.

      But the truth is that USA is actually behind a great many other countries for true freedom. Take it how you like, but when we see international reports on corruption, the free press, courts, fair trials, rights of citizens - we always see USA coming after about 10-20 other countries or more.

      Some of us just get a little annoyed that the Americans are always talking the talk, but are falling behind when it comes to walking the walk :)

    2. Re:Americans talk about freedom by kfg · · Score: 4, Informative

      Just don't wear a T-shirt that says "Support Civil Liberties" on it.

      That's chargable as criminal trespass.

      KFG

    3. Re:Americans talk about freedom by kfg · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Unamerican Tshirt

      I got the quote a bit wrong, and in this case they were threatened with a charge of disorderly conduct, but in other cases trespass has actually been formally charged.

      KFG

    4. Re:Americans talk about freedom by microbox · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I never cringe when I hear "... land of the free ..."

      Give it a rest, most of the developed world has exactly those freedoms, and they find that type of talk self-serving and counter-productive to real freedom.

      If the level of civilization is measured by how will it treats the old, sick and poor, then the USA if full of a lot of hot air.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    5. Re:Americans talk about freedom by Keith+McClary · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "A Saudi-American captured in Afghanistan, labeled an enemy combatant and held in U.S. solitary confinement for nearly three years without charge returned to his family Monday after agreeing to forfeit his U.S. citizenship for freedom."
      http://www.cleveland.com/world/plaindealer/index.s sf?/base/news/1097578544287260.xml
      Detainee forfeits U.S. citizenship for freedom

      Fair trade?

    6. Re:Americans talk about freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting
      canada's for example is very SPECIFIC and has definite wording for their "freedom of speeach"

      Actually, as a Canadian, it was the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms that was foremost in my mind when I posted that.

      Right at the top:

      1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

      That defines a limit on freedom that does not really exist in the U.S. constitution, and leaves the limit very much open to debate. People who know anything about the Charter (including judges and lawyers) are well aware of this, and eager to push back against government attempts to curtail freedom. We know the government would get away with it if we let them. No false sense of security there.

      In contrast, Americans (with the exception of a few, who are usually marginalized as "$foo-wing nutcases"), seem more willing to sit back and expect the Constitution to protect them. At least, that's my perception, as a non-American.

    7. Re:Americans talk about freedom by 808140 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hi. Sorry, my friend. America is a great country, but Europeans have got us on social aid. Let's dissect your points one by one, shall we.

      Social Security, Medicare, and Welfare are under constant threat from people right of center; in this case I'm being non-partisan in my evaluation. Democrats, obstensibly the American party of the left, has its share of people who believe in Horatio Alger's myth of the "American Dream". I'll get to that in a minute. First, some facts.

      Medicare is divided into two parts, part A and part B. You are only eligible for Medicare if you are 65 or older, have certain (rare) disabilities, or have serious renal (kidney) problems. Medicare does not cover you at all otherwise, which means that for 99% of Slashdotters, for example, Medicare is completely useless. Furthermore, you are only eligible for free part A coverage if you have been paying Medicare taxes for an appropriately long period of time -- this may sound fair, but it means (for example) that it is often not economical for a young immigrant to bring his ailing mother with him to the States because she will not be eligible for medical care.

      And then there's part B coverage, which costs $66.50 per month (that's not cheap, dude) and is only available, again, for people eligible for Medicare.

      Contrast this to many European countries, where if you get into an accident, you walk into a hospital, and they fix it. Bume. You don't pay anything.

      Medicaid, which is the general name for Federal funds given to the states for the purpose of health care, varies from state to state. Medicare is, IIRC, under the "Medicaid" blanket. Most people do not see a dime of this money. That isn't surprising; not much money is given.

      What about social security? It's a slush fund that we all pay into that isn't protected at all. The government routinely uses this money for things not related to social security, and it hasn't been putting money back in as fast as it takes it out. Throw an aging baby boomer generation into the mix and you have a system that wasn't really adequate to begin with that is fiscally unsustainable.

      Welfare, well, welfare would be a start if it weren't for the fact that all sorts of draconian elligibility requirements weren't in place. Most people on welfare in the US are single mothers. Did you know that in most states, if the state discovers that you have a boyfriend, you can lose welfare eligibility? No joke. Because if you have a man, obviously, you don't need a goverment check. Your man can take care of you. Heh.

      Do you know how much money we give people on welfare? Not enough to survive, that's for sure. I know that in middle class America the popular steryotype of a welfare mama is a fat black woman doing nothing all day but having kids for the extra money, but reality is rather far from this. Most women on welfare are working two full time jobs and still can't make ends meet. Who's taking care of their kids while they work? Usually no one, because babysitters cost money. So you end up with latch-key kids. You see, we Americans don't feel that raising children is work that deserves compensation.

      It's really easy for women to end up on welfare, you know. The US is also really bad about protecting maternity leave rights. So what happens is, a woman gets pregnant and takes time off to have her child, and while she's gone, she loses her job. Libertarians everywhere applaud. Anyone who's ever had a child knows how much work they are. So what do you do? Hand your kid over to your parents, and get another job, quickly, before the industry moves on and you're not elligible for much more than waiting tables?

      Regarding freedoms in other countries, you are right that we have higher standards. In much of Europe, for example, hate speech is illegal; this looks good on the face of things but it is sometimes used with impunity to restrict criticism. An example would be police using French hate speech laws to censor Frenc

    8. Re:Americans talk about freedom by jlar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "And the rest of the "civilized world"[1] _DOES NOT_ always have our freedoms. In the UK, the press can be censored."

      And if you look at the press freedom index you will note that UK is 28th on the list while USA is 22nd. Maybe you should set your ambitions higher than that? For inspiration you can have a look at the countries higher up the list - like Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Netherlands, Norway, Slovakia or Switzerland.

      If you are satisfied with the current freedom of press and hence lower quality of the coverage please feel free to be so.

      As a Danish citizen I noticed a lowered quality of (parts of) the US press after September 11th and particularly during the run-up to the Iraq war (there seemed to be no room for doubt). From my point of view it was clear that the evidence for weapons of mass destruction were poor. My impression was that a discussion of the quality of the evidence was hardly allowed space in US media outlets. Is that also your impression in 20-20 hindsight?

      In spite of this I supported the invasion of Iraq but based on other arguments than WMD, but that is a different story.

  3. Press Freedom absolutely necessary by Dancin_Santa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Comparing the Western European countries with vast freedoms of the press to the dictatorial or communist countries with outright persecution of journalists is eye-opening. What is most disturbing is that in this day and age that there still exists repression of thought in some countries. Control the media and you can control the minds of your subjects. To have a truly free thinking society means that the media cannot be controlled.

    The only problem with this is that it leads to significant growth of tabloid press. Look at Europe again with its outrageous papers like the Sun or Pravda. Just because the press is free does not mean that the information is better, just more voluminous.

    Like the internet, anyone in a free press country can publish what they like. Like the internet, it is up to the reader to filter out the gems from the trash.

    1. Re:Press Freedom absolutely necessary by saforrest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Quite the contrary. Regardless of their bias, Fox reports the same news as every other mainstream media outlet. They are not tabloid, as far as tabloids go.

      Maybe the same as every other mainstream American media outlet, but there is a hell of lot of news they don't report on.

      As well, Fox News tends to have a habit of covering stories on issues which could be politically damaging for the Republican Party only after the stories have gained enough momentum in other media that they can no longer be ignored.

    2. Re:Press Freedom absolutely necessary by myowntrueself · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Control the media and you can control the minds of your subjects. To have a truly free thinking society means that the media cannot be controlled."

      Not even by corporations nor by shareholders nor managing directors.

      The reason that I believe that democracy cannot properly function in modern 'media-rich' societies is exactly this; who controls the media controls, among other things, *voting*behaviors* (I believe that human beings are extremely amenable to suggestion).

      Any media coverage of political matters risks being used as a tool to control voting behaviors.

      I like the *idea* of democracy but I fail to see how this sort of problem can be circumvented at all.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    3. Re:Press Freedom absolutely necessary by Teun · · Score: 4, Informative
      It is obvious that most of the mainstream press has a left wing slant to it. I find it funny that because fox is either in the middle or slightly to the right it is all the sudden some tabloid that shoudl be discredited.

      In Europe a large number of people (probably a majority) consider CNN right wing.
      Nearly everyone in Europe considers Fox News (if they at all know it) comical until they realise it's actually considered a News Channel in the USofA.

      The rift between the US and Europe is greater than many US citisen realise and Bush/Cheney/Fox are in the eyes of many Europeans doing everything in their power to increase that rift.
      And it pains us Europeans to see the great country that after the Nazi years helped us get back on our feet slide in the direction that we learned to dispise.

      In Europe we are so fortunate as to be able to sample news from many sources and countries, for me that is the only way to stay properly informed.
      And Fox is one of those sources, not for the news as such but for the opinions.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    4. Re:Press Freedom absolutely necessary by ThaReetLad · · Score: 4, Interesting
      It is obvious that most of the mainstream press has a left wing slant to it.
      But on a global scale, even your left wing is right wing, and your right wing is only slightly left of Mussolini.

      Just because the Democrats pass for lefties in America, it doesn't mean they would anywhere else.
      --
      You can't win Darth. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
  4. How did they decide? by HotNeedleOfInquiry · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Reporters Without Borders compiled the index by asking its partner organisations (14 freedom of expression organisations in five continents), its 130 correspondents around the world, as well as journalists, researchers, jurists and human rights activists, to answer 52 questions to indicate the state of press freedom in 167 countries"

    So this leaves lots unsaid. Basically, if correspondents say they don't have press freedom, they don't. Doesn't seem like a very scientific study to me.

    --
    "Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
    1. Re:How did they decide? by gollum123 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Also the study did not address anything about the inherent bias in the media. The fact that the government does not control the media does not mean that we get unbaised coverage of the news. And a lot of times the ownership of the media is not even clear to judge which side they are more baised against. This is as dangerous as govt. controlling the media because people think that the media is free and fair which is not true.

    2. Re:How did they decide? by luvirini · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I think you ae partly missing the point.

      There are no really objective ways of measuring press freedom, as in the all repressed countires the press uses self-censure.

      Indeed you can mesure how many journalists are in jail and how many journalists are required to give up their sources and such on certain level, but the "but I cannot write about those things" cannot be measured in objective way.

      Thus the only way to try to get a grip on these issues is to ask the people in question, with anonymity.

  5. Media self-censorship a function of consolidation. by Behrooz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think that the biggest threat to the free press in the United States today comes from the owners of media conglomerates, not the government. The continuing centralization of media ownership and the ongoing lobbying campaign in support of media consolidation leave us with an oligarchy of giant media groups. Often, the major media outlets of a city are owned by one or two large corporations, with interlocking ownership.

    Under those conditions, the views of the owners are propagated without check, because there simply is no real independent mass media in most parts of the US today. They censor themselves, so the government doesn't have to.

    --
    "We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
  6. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  7. Reason why the Swiss are #1 by Faustust · · Score: 5, Insightful


    The reason is that they allow themselves to be completely neutral. They don't care if they have George Bush's money in a bank account or Saddam Hussein's money, it's all the same to them.

    When a country's government is neutral, it allows for the media to be more openly objective. These laws allow for equal treatment of everyone. The only problem with that is you are --I hate to sound cliche-- "helping terrorism."

    1. Re:Reason why the Swiss are #1 by zx75 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Helping, or failing to hinder? Glass is half-full/half-empty here. Switzerland doesn't aid and abet terrorism, does not provide a refuge for wanted criminals, they take care of themselves and expect the rest of the world to do the same.

      In truth, if some larger more influential and powerful nations *ahem* took an attitude more in line with the Swiss, there would be less conflict in this world of ours.

      --
      This is not a sig.
  8. Re:Free Speech in Denmark?? by mjtg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's nothing. You can be jailed anywhere in the world if the US president thinks you're a terrorist. Give me a Danish judge any day.

  9. Jealous vs. Envious by wsherman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Americans frequently claim that others are "jealous" of their freedom.

    It's interesting that they use "jealous" rather than "envious" because "jealous" implies a limited resource (two women wanting to date the same man, for example) whereas "envious" implies an unlimited resource (envying your friend's new computer - new computers are available to anyone who wants to buy one).

    There seems to be a subconscious fear in the United States that if the rest of the world gets "freedom" or "wealth" that the United States will somehow lose it.

    There is no reason the whole world can't have high levels of freedom and a high standard of living and high levels of education.

    The fear that the United States is preventing other countries from having these things seems to lead to the fear that if other countries get these things then the United States will lose them.

    Of course, depsite what most Americans seem to think, the United States doesn't come in first in most measures of quality of life (freedom of press, per capita income, education level, etc.) anyway so it's not clear what they are so worried about.

  10. Re:Free Speech in Denmark?? by Penguin · · Score: 5, Informative
    No, that's not "The truth". That's just one story you pull out as it would explain everything. Please, that kind of anecdotal argument is just a way of disrupting an argument. You could probably google for a lot more regarding Denmark and throw other red herrings about stuff not related to free press (like we pay a lot in taxes :)

    It's true that the Danish penal code has parts regarding libel, slander, threats, etc. just as many other countries (penal code - "Straffeloven" - 266). This paragraph also contains a note regarding the above issues aimed at groups because of their race, color, ethnicity, faith or sexual orientation. Personally I don't think it's that different from targeting individuals (but hey, I'm a Dane :). The paragraph has been discussed now and then in the public, but the borders are actually quite wide. It's nothing like Germany or France (.. I pressume)

    Besides, this has nothing to do with press freedom. A Danish nazi party is actually allowed to run their own radio station at the ordinary FM-band.

    We did have an interesting case though regarding a radio documentary in 1985, where an interviewer talked with a bunch of young, declared racists ("Greenjackets"), spreading their racism. At first the interviewer was convicted of spreading racism at a lower court, but after appealing through the system (and even losing at Danish supreme court), he tried his case in front of the European Court of Human Rights which concluded that even though some of the statements made by the Greenjackets would be racist, the broadcast itself wasn't. You can read the entire case online.

    It's actually a bit surprising when documentaries like Fahrenheit 9/11 (or, on a more serious level, Control Room), show how news are presented in the US. I think that many Danes weren't that surprised viewing these documentaries, because the Danish press already used several sources, meaning that a lot of the "surprising stories" in these documentaries weren't that surprising at all, since a lot of the footage had already been shown in public media.

    I am pretty worried of US citizens believing that each and every single thing about US is the best in the world. We have a more free press, less corruption, a head of government elected by popular vote, but since we live in a world where people appearently get their "entire facts" based on one or two incidents (which is pretty usual at Slashdot - think of all the posts regarding any topic, where one would find a random incident about a webserver, a company, a product and continuously beat that argument in a manner like "How can you say this product is good, since (link to some old event)?"), nothing of this matters. It only matters if people are able to use Google to find that little piece of information, they care about and judge the rest of the world by that.

    --
    - Peter Brodersen; professional nerd
  11. Re:U.S. is way to high by 808140 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You're looking at this too practically.

    Freedom isn't much good, admittedly, if no one bothers to exercise it. What this article measures, however, is not the quality of information provided by the local press; rather, it is the ease with which journalists are able to obtain information in a country without the government interfering.

    American journalists don't take much advantage of the US's open nature, because our private media are here to sell news, and Americans culturally just don't care about what's happening in the world. I really don't think there's much of a conspiracy here. The US is a huge country, the most powerful in the world, bordered by another huge country that speaks the same language it does. People in the US just don't care too much about the rest of the world unless it affects their lives directly, and the truth is that as far as US citizens are concerned, what happens in most other countries has little bearing on their daily lives.

    This is hard to understand for a lot of Europeans, who mostly come from small countries that don't have the same natural resources the US does. For someone in France or Germany, what happens in Poland, Belgium, the UK, Turkey -- this all can and does affect their daily lives, economic stability, etc, in a way that is evident to the average joe. And so, not surprisingly, these people are better informed than Americans when it comes to world issues.

    Now, the press freedom in the US is pretty good. By this I mean that a reporter from Le Monde can go to the US with the intent to write an exposé on American government corruption, for example, and will run into very little static doing it. A New York Post reporter, in a similar way, will have little trouble getting the information he wants in France, even if his piece is called "Cheese-eating surrender monkeys: How a country entirely populated by homosexuals manages to remain adequately populated." This is because both the US and France are very free countries. And while the journalists of other countries may use this to abuse them, they understand that keeping information available is important.

    China and North Korea, on the other hand, will want to "approve" what you write before letting you do anything. They may even offer to write it for you.

    That's what's meant by press freedom. Not "is the local press open and non-self-censoring" but rather "do journalists have the freedom to ask questions and get them answered without too much interference."

    The US scores badly on the first but passably well (although not as well as I, as an American, would like) on the second. This article is about the second, not the first.

  12. Obligatory The Daily Show quote by Penguin · · Score: 4, Funny

    Steven Colbert: After all, it was Thomas Jefferson who said "Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach."
    Jon Stewart: No, that was Stalin. Thomas Jefferson said that he'd "Rather have free press and no government, than a government and no free press".
    Steven Colbert: Well, what else would you expect from a slave-banging, Hitler loving queer?

    --
    - Peter Brodersen; professional nerd