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Microsoft Just Wants a Little Look
waynegoode writes "Do you want to let Microsoft check if your copy of Windows is legit? How about if they promise it's anonymous? How about if they give you some free stuff? Recently Microsoft launched their Genuine Advantage Program to let you (and Microsoft) check if your OS is legal. They hoped for 20,000 responses but received 800,000 without offering anything but piece of mind. Now they are throwing in a bunch of free and discounted stuff including Photo Story 3 and the Holiday Fun Pack to try to get more volunteers. Read more at news.com and Microsoft Watch."
...then will come harassment and demands to look and that will just drive people away from Windows towards Linux.
Bullying people into buying a $15 CD might work, but $200 is a lot more, esp. when there are alternatives.
Windows Update refuses to work if you're using a pirated Windows XP CD Key, so why would giving you free stuff be that big of a controvercy? It's not like they're telling you that you can't visit their site unless you do this.
But it would probably be rather easy for M$ to keep a nice tidy database of who has "legit" windows vs. those who don't. Also, this could, with trivial modification, be used to detect duplicate product activation keys....might it be something along the lines of a means to find these keys for a future crackdown?
The article states that there is "no 'stick' as yet", and perhaps there never will be any official action taken against those with pirated copies who foolishly enough decide to tell Microsoft about it. [ After all, if they suddenly started sending out flying attack squads of lawyers, that would make for some bad press. ] However, how long will it be before such a check is integrated into the OS, and checked every time the computer goes online? It certainly wouldn't be that difficult to program in such a "feature', with the added bonus of locking down the system should the results not be acceptable.....
At any rate, it makes me sort of pity all those poor windows users who are going to get screwed over...and makes me very glad that I don't use windows.
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure dome decree
His Slackware turned out to be a legitimate copy of Windows. Figure that. The number could very well consist of page loadings or such, instead of actual verifications. Some people actually tried it out for fun. I guess I should give it a try from few OSes as well.
Freaky indeed!
And the guy says to the Bartender "Oh, heehaw, heehaw, heehalways talks like that"
Someone mentioned that this might be a way of hunting down errant, illegal copies of non-product activation corporate editions of MS Windows products. I would take that a step further and venture to say that this will be the next step in "product" activation. Instead of requiring the hassle of the product activation phone call/activation code entry for corporate clients, they will, instead, find ways to monitor corporate clients for errant product IDs floating around outside the bounds of a corporate purchasers' license terms.
I would suspect that Microsoft could easily come up with some way to monitor an individual corporate license being used during product updates. Maybe they keep a head count of how many licensed copies are out there under a particular company's account. When 2041 licenses are detected for a corporate account of only 1000 licenses, Microsoft will skip going after the pirates and basically take the issue to the company in terms of fines and/or a nice big Microsoft bill.
Could they do it with IPs? Make each company register a domain and/or IP range for corporate clients? Probably not, given that corporate clients could be working mobilely and the prospect of spoofing. But perhaps they could account for that and start issuing a set # of desktop licenses (that don't move) and a set # of laptop/mobile licenses that can move off the network. A little harder to say "you gave out more product IDs/licenses than allowed," but still a means of tracking licenses outside a set number of mobile clients. There would most likely be a threshold of, say, 20% more than the license limit before the company got called on it.
I could see this as Microsoft's wakeup call to its corporate customers. Control your licenses, or you will be charged/fined accordingly. It might hurt business for Microsoft and cause some changeover to other systems, but for the most part, businesses are going to have to do business with software that meets their needs. And as long as Microsoft is the dominant player in the corporate world for desktop computing, businesses will have to make the effort to meet their licensing demands.
IronChefMorimoto
I guess this is somewhat of a prime example as to how security fails when it comes to the end user..
:-P) could log in and assist the user, but why not give any sort of warning yourselves. There's always the possibility that one asshole may go berzerk and abuse the software they have been provided to basically hijack ones system.
:-P
To have M$ estimate, hope rather, that 20,000 unforunate, uneducated users would sign up for this bogus crap.. then actually find out that 800,000 people have decided to give this a try, is a sad sad thing to see..
The problem is, people are unaware/uneducated about potential security threats. Thanks to M$ devious and sly marketing tactics though, the word FREE captures almost any saps attention..
So yes, we can blame the users for being idiots and having M$ spy on them. It's kind of hypocritical though how M$, Symantec, Dell and so forth always urge users to protect their computers from any sort of security threats or any harmful 3rd party software, spyware, malicious sites, etc.. yet they themselves are spying on their own customers.
Sure Dell, thanks for putting matcli/MotiveAssistant on my computer. I appreciate your concern for having some program constantly run in the background to which you claim is solely there for the purpose for when the user has any sort of technical issues and a rep (probably from India, but that's another story
In short, if we're going to try to make this crazy thing we call the Internet "secure", let's not abuse that power and assume that YOU are justified to install a program that gives a remote user access to ones system. Here's a simple solution. When you're helping them out, have them run the program and terminate it at the completion of the session.
Sheesh.. sorry for the rant
Genuine Microsoft software offers you greater reliability
Does it? A pirated copy of Windows still has exactly the same code as a genuine one. How can MS say that genuine software is more reliable?
Read my post further up, i was wondering the real motivation for this.
Regardless of your software ideals, stealing software is wrong
hHere in my country, a 'developing" nation I'd wager the piracy rate(for MS) is at 70-80%. Roll back 5 years ago,, it'd be near 100%.
Piracy has actually helped MS entrech its position. Nowadays, the instances of non MS OS or office(in the office) software is still near 0%.. All "pirates" who uses MS in the past(i.e Univ) is now working, and they wouldn't be interested in learning about new "tools"
I'd wager MS would not view 'stealing' that led them to a dominant position is wrong.
IMHO all developing or poor nation starts with 100% piracy rate, as they gradually become more prosperous the rate will go down. The softwares most pirated will benefit the most from this growth.
Timang tinggi tinggi
parang sudah asah
alang alang mandi
biar sampai basah
I'm running a pirate copy of Windows XP SP2 on my scratch partition. I'm a Fedora guy that's interested in distros and operating systems, and have XP installed on my scratch partition right now. I used a pirate copy for the install as the one I was forced to purchase from Dell will destroy my main OS partition on my hard disk.
.hta you run instead (pity there's no XUL version, but hey...).
Interesting facts:
1. It works in Firefox. If the ActiveX control doesn't download, they give you a
2. They don't show the results.
Contrary to what another poster said, Windows Update seems to work fine with a pirate copy of XP, at least this one.
exactly. However much MS would like to run down every joe schmoe with a pirated copy of windows (3.11 through 2003 server) they are more likely to be going after companies that sell computers with non-legit copies of winXP.
I wonder how many stores are selling computers with xp corp. and generated keys just so they can undercut the competition or make an extra buck?
As for the free software.. no one was going to buy it anyhow, so why not give it out as a perk? I think my parents might be getting some legitimate crappy photo software this week, for free.
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Well, some people pay for their licences but get pirated software.
h arged_with_pirate_supply/
The Reg had an amusing story of how some police forces got caught out..
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/02/19/dealers_c
So what's to stop people (who know they have illegitimate copies of Windows) from colluding and falsely reporting innocent vendors?
There are 10 kinds of people; those who know ternary, those who don't, and those now hunting for a dictionary.
It also goes straight into a reporting database where Microsoft can track trends like which resellers are selling large amounts of counterfeit copies of Windows.
Sounds like a great opportunity for a joe-job of a b&m computer store.
1) Get a list of known warez registration keys
2) Get a utility that lets you reset your XP registration key
3) Get a DSL or dial-up account which gives you a new IP every time your reconnect.
4) Find a key on the list of warez keys that will fail the test, then set your installed XP to that bogus one, dial-in for new IP and run the test.
5) When it fails, fill out report form indicating local BestBuy or whatever victim you prefer.
6) Rinse, repeat until local BestBuy is raided by the SPA/MPAA/RIAA/DHS/DHL/UPS.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
No, I'm not more knowlegable, but like many on /. I too have an opinion ;)
Early adoption of Dos/Windows by 'casual' pirates is why Microsoft penetrated the market so quickly. (Tipping point again!)
Microsoft made HUGE leaps in market share by using "educational discounts" and having ineffective copy protection (for retail/business/edu versions). This merely accelerated the adoption process.
Bulletproof copy protection at a crucial time, like, say Windows 3.1/3.11 would have forced people to shell out hard cash for an OS, and would have allowed room for real market competition from the likes of OS/2, or the Apple hardware/OS bundle (granted, the Apple setup had its own lock-in woes). Instead, they played the crack dealer ("First one's on the house,kid") and reap the benefits of users' unwillingness to change to something new, and presented Industry with a workforce more conversant in the Microsoft Way. Eventually, people want the next version/office suite so bad, they're willing to pay for it.
It was a win/win for MS, and the consumers who are getting boned today are only doing so because, well, it's a habit.
one better than mcleodeight
Here's some free clue for you: "support" doesn't mean they'll come administer your servers for free, or write your programs for you. Which is what would put people out of job.
It means you can call when you have a problem.
And "world class" is a very relative term. Support from most companies is a sick joke nowadays. Support people are something like taxes: you pay them because you have to, but you don't want to pay a cent more than you absolutely have to. So the ones hired are the cheapest monkeys who can read a bulleted list. Occasionally even the right bulleted list, but no biggie if they read the grocery list instead.
So it's not even hard for MS to actually be in the top tier. You know, the thing about the one-eyed man among the blind.
E.g., having spent the last 2.5 years dealing with WebSphere, which is a buggy unfinished sick joke if you actually use EJBs. And reporting the bugs to IBM. Now IBM's WebSphere support is enough to drive one neurotic, to drinking, or both. And we're not talking support to end-(lusers) but to a big corporate client.
It's a feat just getting past the mindless check-list reading drones. They don't even read what we send them. The first _weeks_ are spent just with them sending us canned "solutions" off their check lists, that don't even match what we wrote in the bug description. That idiotic.
And once you got past those, it's like dealing with a corporate sized Wally (from the Dilbert comics.) It's an endless delay tactic. Including, but not limited to, asking if they can close the bug report just because they want to go on vacation. (No, I'm not making this up. It's too sad to make up, folks.) Or sending us a Jar file as a "fix" that didn't solve the problem, or one even broke WebSphere completely. Or once, after such a "fix" didn't solve the problem, they sent us the exact same file again, as the new "fix".
Or to get you an idea of software quality: they never run the tests we send them to reproduce the problem, and obviously don't have any test cases of their own.
An annoyed coleague finally actually asked them what test cases they used to prove they fixed the problem, 'cause their fix did nothing for us. The answer? A longer version of "no, we didn't actually test it, we didn't even reproduce the problem, but we're confident that we've fixed it. And we thatk you for testing it for us." (Again, I'm not even making it up. They thank us for acting as testers for them.)
Or here's one actual support case that didn't involve a bug: Another team needed to import a SSL certifficate to get IBM's WebSphere Portal Server to talk to another server. So they ask IBM. After getting nowhere with the phone support, they actually pay a big heap of money to get an IBM "consultant" to come show them.
Again, not some underpaid, overworked telephone support slave. A consultant. IBM consultants cost a small fortune.
So the consultant messed around with the server for a _week_, and then said something to the effect of "uhh... I have no bloody idea. Try searching for key store files in all directories and importing your certificate in all of them. It's got to be one of those. I have no idea which, though."
Sad.
So, well, again, it's not even hard for MS to be better than such clowns. It may not be the ideal support by the client's standards, but it's waay better than the sick joke you get as support from some other companies.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Validation isn't locking any genuinely licensed users out of any content
Perhaps not, but it was product activation that pushed me away from windows. I have legit copies of windows from 95 to xp. Once the activation stuff started, I started to look at linux. The hassle of having to reactivate my hardware when I changed things really bugged me. I know that someone is going to post how this isn't really a problem, you can change lots of hardware before failing activation, etc. From my perspective, it was the end of the road for microsoft. I don't ever want to be dependent on having to phone up anyone in the middle of the night (once was enough) and get asked stupid questions in order to prove I had a real copy, and get logged on a M$ database.
I vowed not to do it again, and I didn't. Initially I never installed a copy of windows, etc, until I had acquired a cracked copy first (I still bought the legit licence), but I also started to look around. I now use linux and mac's but I'm not ever going down an activation type pathway ever again.
So whose problem is this? Well, actually, not mine. Its microsoft's problem, because they aren't getting any more money out of me, and I've gotten a few people interested in mac's as well.
So no, I didn't get locked out of microsoft software. But even moving part way that way was too much for me.
My 2c worth
Michael
There is no cryptographic solution to the problem where the intended receiver and the attacker are the same entity.
I think you are 100% wrong and I am surprised that with all the conspiracy theorists who post here no one has really put together that MSFT is making the move towards updates only for verified, activated copies and, likely, attempting to close the non-activation loophole for volume licensed copies with Longhorn (which is how Windows is pirated today). The "we just want to make sure you didn't ... er ... buy a copy that was pirated" line is crap.
... Ask you Mom to pay $500 for Office and see how she reacts (your Mother might be an OSS super-coder, so please just take the example as an example and don't be a prat). Piracy has always made commercial software pricing palpable & if the commercial software world wants to challenge that thesis, I really believe they do so at their peril.
They have to be careful and I think they know it. If you piss off mixed sites (household or business sites that have a mix or paid-for and pirated copies) you run a serious risk of migration to Linux (as Windows - or any OS - without updates is pretty worthless). Also, you have the old "you have some type of responsibility to your code" argument that was made around SP2. Not that I think MSFT gives a shit about the idea, but as a PR idea it is of value ("MICROSOFT CODE PLAGUES INTERNET DUE TO REFUSAL OF PATCH!").
In reality, I think the recent trend towards copyright-with-an-iron-fist-double-checked will likely backfire. If every Joe User and even every Bob SuperAdmin had to pay full price (even OEM) for every single copy of Windows & Office (and Photoshop and x and y and z) out there, you would see a serious exodus to Linux and related. Fuck security, fuck philosophy
Actually, I have thought for a while that if the OSS community wanted to heighten the Linux desktop penetration numbers, the best way would be to form a "We Hate Dirty Pirates" group and spend six/twelve months devising & implementing (for free) anti-piracy mechanisms for the Win32 platform. Come up with a killer scheme, and you would have done more than anyone for your platform.
Let's look at a few fun factoids, shall we?
1. AFAIK, XP is the primary version of Windows being sold by MS atm. There might be others for corporate peeps...Server 2003, etc...but I'm talking in terms of home users. ME is still *supported* AFAIK, but from what I read 95 isn't and I don't know about 98...but even if it is, it's not still generating MS money. So from what I can see, XP alone is pretty much where it's at in terms of current home user OS revenue for them.
2. There seems to be a fair amount of evidence that XP is currently being pirated to an insane degree. We know about MS bringing out Starter Ed in Asia to try and combat piracy there, and they had the serial number top 10 etc etc.
3. Although it's true that it is now at that stage of the game where from MS' point of view, pirate XP on someone's machine is still more desirable than legit Linux, (because of mindshare retention) they have been starting to feel (at least compared to what they're used to) a rather nasty profit pinch over the last year or two. Because of this, it's understandable that given where they are now, they're probably more interested in stopping piracy at the moment than they ever have been before...however, they're not likely to be successful IMHO because
4. They've destroyed/damaged consumer trust/credibility to the point where they're not going to be getting it back. Ever. For anyone who's been paying attention, Microsoft's list of crimes is a mile long, including violation of the Sherman Act, raping/destroying various other software companies and acquiring their software through dubious means, and more relevant to this particular topic, suspicion of engaging in various forms of surveillance of Windows users. I'm guessing Gates could quite literally donate his entire fortune to charity at this point and it wouldn't substantially improve most people's opinion of him. The PR crisis is actually Microsoft's biggest problem...Bigger than Linux...bigger than anything else currently challenging it. The plain and simple fact is that people passionately hate the company, in large numbers...or at the very least seriously distrust it...and it is utterly impossible to continue to successfully do business when the majority feel that way towards you.
Gates would do very well at this point to acquaint himself with what Machiavelli wrote about a leader who allows himself to become hated.
Because of this, however, I'm assuming that only the most gullible of casual users for the most part are going to go along with allowing Microsoft to check their copies of Windows...And I also have a feeling Microsoft know that. The line about improving reliability is one of their usual transparent-as-glass lies.
came up to me in office hours yesterday telling me how he just bought a laptop, but didn't get an OS on it. He figured he would just "borrow" a copy of Windows from a friend and he couldn't get it to install on his laptop for some reason. It kept rebooting and it wouldn't accept the Windows disk. He came to me looking for help, but I didn't help him. Instead, I told him that I wouldn't help him with installing it because I don't like to help people to copy things illegally, and boy did he get pissed and storm away. He deserves it, however since he is a CS major, and although I can understand that people are greedy, lazy fucks who don't want to pay for anything they can get for free, you shouldn't pirate software if you're a CS major. That's just ignorant and makes me hope that he'll flunk out of CS (not that I would or could do it intentionally because of how uniform grades are determined), but just because he doesn't get where the money comes from that he will pay his rent some day when he gets a job. So yeah, MS has a problem, but I can't believe people wouldn't know if their Windows is legal or not. Generally it comes pre-installed by a big company, or they go to a store and buy it in a nice shiny box. Shrug.
Best. Comment. Ever. Enjoy!
Hmmm, I got windows preinstalled on my laptop but put linux on before booting the thing. It didn't ship with a full install media, just some bizarre 'restore disc' which impedes my resale rights of software under EU law. I wonder how Microsofts 'world class' support will handle getting install media out to me for my legally obtained windows license so that I can exercise my legal right of resale?
The Microsoft way:
1. Market crappy software as if it was good.
2. Profit
3. Price fix, break law, pay both political parties.
4. Profit
5. Use money to buy competition and hire better developers.
6. Kill competing products. Make own software less crappy.
7. Issue new version less crappy, but more bloated than the last one.
8. Profit.
9. Goto 3
The result of this is software that's less crappy. Windows 3.1 , 95, 98, Me were pretty bad. XP, except Explorer, is actually pretty good, in my experience. Would it be this good without competition from Unix vendors, the open source community and Macintosh? I don't think so.
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
This is targeted to those who purchase a PC from some 3rd rate shop and want to check that the cd they were given is authentic.
My first thought was that it is aimed at people who will do anything for a t-shirt; i.e., those "girls gone wild...just wait til daddy orders a copy of your 5 minutes of fame" types. Sort of a self-selecting sample population, IMO, making any of Microsoft's published statistics worth taking with a grain of salt.
-- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
I also run a cracked copy of XP Pro. In fact, on quite a few machines. All my copies of XP are legitimately purchased. I just don't want to go through all the activation rubbish every couple of months when I change hardware in the machines they're installed on, and after a few times, having to call up Microsoft UK to explain that yes, this is the 12th time I've activated it, and no, it is only on one machine, but that the hardware in said machine keeps changing.
I do exactly the same thing with games: buy them, then download the no-cd crack. Why? So I don't have to shove the disc into a drive, often in another room, before I'm able to play the thing.
Companies shouldn't assume that everyone who's using dodgy/generated keys didn't legitimately purchase their software...
Has anyone tried running this under WINE?
As I previously mentioned here, the whole Genuine Advantage Program is a piece of crap. If you produce a valid VLK key based on my previous post, there is no way for microsoft to realize you are using a legal or a illgal key. I just validated my key and downloaded Photo Story 3! It's really worthless. Just follow my Algorithm.
I'd love to help out with writing some of this antipiracy stuff, but i'm a self righteous bastard who wouldn't run windows if I was paid to, besides, I don't wanna have to download a stinking compiler to do it. :-)
I wonder how well microsoft will survive the reality check, when their user base has a huge chunk taken out of it, because they wont give freebe's anymore to the 'pirate scum'?
They won't be taking in that much money from those few scared pirate fools rushing out to buy a legit copy.
Sure makes me glad my O/S is free, works fast and stable, comes with both C compiler and source code, and every app i'll ever need.. and on top of that, I get a clean conscience in the bargain.
Sorry Mr Gates, you aint gonna see a single cent from me.. unless I find Micro$ucks has crumbled and your destitute begging on the street corner.. in which case I might let you work for a couple of bucks an hour bootstrapping gentoo boxes for me... ;-)
you're saying that OpenOffice would have a bigger market share if more people used OpenOffice?
No, I'm saying that if people had to make the choice of paying the correct licensing fees for MS Office or using OpenOffice, then OpenOffice usage would go up greatly. In different words, to many users, MS Office is probably not an application they'd pay a lot of money for, they just use it because they get it "for free" and because everybody else is using it.
Glad we got that cleared up then.
You're welcome.
That is where the stronger conspiracy theory put forward does not work (although there probably is a conspiracy here somewhere). Remember, Microsoft actually encourage piracy of their products in some circles (where as they force big law-abiding users like governments to pay up) as this is the only way they can stop everyone from moving to a better OS. These facts have been well documented.
Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley
[This post is in the public domain (copyright-free) unless otherwise stated]
I set up a machine in VMWare, installed using a key from the MSKey 4in1 VLK, product range 640-500 to 640-600.
It validates fine.
I have MSDN universal, so I'm fine, but it seems that the "is it valid" thing should actually detect invalid copies.