Zope X3 3.0.0 Released

tj8 writes "The Zope 3 development team has announced Zope X3 3.0.0 final. After almost three years of development it has finally arrived!"

Comments

Slashdot == Freshmeat. Yawn...

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

In other news: ispel-fo 0.2.18 was released today. ispell-fo is a faroese dictionary for ispell based on Føroyski orðalistin til rættlestur (The Faroese Spellchecking Dictionary). Massive rejoicing of computer hackers on Capitol Hill was not reported.

And for the uninformed...

[the pickle]

From the e-mail:

Zope is an open source web application server primarily written in the Python
programming language. It features a transactional object database which can
store not only content and custom data, but also dynamic HTML templates,
scripts, a search engine, and relational database (RDBMS) connections and
code. It features a strong through-the-web development model, allowing you to
update your web site from anywhere in the world. To allow for this, Zope also
features a tightly integrated security model. Built around the concept of
"safe delegation of control", Zope's security architecture also allows you to
turn control over parts of a web site to other organizations or individuals.

You'd think story mods would put stuff like this in the stories. With over 800,000 registered users, the odds are pretty damn good not all of us know what the heck [latest software project] is.

I'm not even going to attempt to translate that bit into real English (you know, instead of buzzword-speak), but at least *try* to describe what the software does, guys...

p

I don't know what it is...

[Boss, Pointy Haired]

... but is it XML compatible?

Best Links

[the pickle]

From the "Related Links" section, actual link titles:

Best deals: The Internet Yee-haw, I'm gonna buy me this "Innernet" thing fer real cheap!

Best deals: Announcements For when you need a cheap talking head to run your press conferences?

Best deals: Developers Because we all know Slashdot is doing its best to put all the programmers whose jobs have been outsourced to India back to work. Or is Slashdot now working to find those companies better deals than their American developer staffs...? The mind boggles.

Slashdot ought to re-title the "Related Links" section to "text-based ads that might be marginally related to the topic, but we doubt it."

p

Re:There we go again...

[mabinogi]

The point of a content management system is that it allows non technical users to maintain the site after initial setup.

They also usually have versioning, workflow (ie, changes needing to be approved before they're published), notifications, and other stuff.

If you've got three pages you probably don't need a CMS.

They definitely do add a fair amount of overhead, but if your site has a significant amount of content, and / or you have a lot of people looking after the content, a CMS is the way to go. If you don't use a ready made one, you're eventually going to implement your own one way or another anyway - so sometimes it's easier to start with one from the outset.

Zope however, is not a CMS, it's a Python based application server - it's just that most of the time that people use Zope, it's to run a CMS on top (or in the case of Plone, walk or crawl a CMS on top)

Re:There we go again...

[madprof]

Are you joking or something?
Frameworks provide a way to save time in development and maintenance of medium-to-large projects by providing facilitis that programmers will find useful.
Zope's acquisition feature is very handy for me to write templated websites whle keeping my application logic separate from my HTML.
When I have non-programmers editing the HTML (which I do) this is really handy.
Zope gives me a web interface to use to get to all this code. This means my non-programmer has an easier time of it.

ruby alternative

[OmniVector]

well, since someone posted a php alternative i figured i'd post the ruby alternative too :P

ruby on rails. very nice web framework

On Zope

[Qbertino]

Zope is a web application server with an integrated object relational database and a turnkey web administration frontend.
It's basically a prototype of what application servers and databases are going to look like in 5 to 10 years.
From having worked with Zope I can say the power of this tool simply is breathtaking. Technology wise it's way beyond anything else I've seen, including J2EE and the bazillion other Appservers that come with it and other to-date solutions like the ones based on .Net.
It's downsides were the lack of consitent documentation for some parts, slow extra basic components (called "Products") and a lack of filtering in the Zope community. Like top grade Zope solutions right next to crappy beta level coding experiments. Lot of this has improved throughout the last 2 years though. Still missing is a larger support by ISPs running Zope on their servers.
Bottom line:
If anyone wants to build a special application with lot of custom server side programming, Zope is the powertool of choice. Technology wise it beats any other solution hands down. Think "The Linux of Application Servers".

OK we need some input from the Zope heads

[Timesprout]

Is it really an Application Server and if so what services does it provide? I ask because the programmers tutorial makes it look like a run of the mill framework for generating webpages.

Is it compiled into native code? I know this is more a Python thing but even mentioning an application server built in a scripting language will have me ridiculed out the door.

Any performance indications or comparissons? Anyone port Petshop and compare it against JBoss or Geronimo perchance?

What advantages does Zope offer me over a J2EE server?

Re:OK we need some input from the Zope heads

[Qbertino]

Is it really an Application Server and if so what services does it provide? I ask because the programmers tutorial makes it look like a run of the mill framework for generating webpages.

Most that I can think of. It even comes with it's own webserver, so you can spare yourself the Apache installation. Good for testing out of the box.

Is it compiled into native code? I know this is more a Python thing but even mentioning an application server built in a scripting language will have me ridiculed out the door.

1st of all: Python isn't any more a "scripting language" (whatever that is) than Java (which you mention for comparsion in another place)). But to answer your question: Performance critical parts are written in C (and iirc a little in C++), the rest is Python.

Any performance indications or comparissons? Anyone port Petshop and compare it against JBoss or Geronimo perchance?
Compared to other solutions that have the DB totally seperated it is generally considered slower when used with no second thought on optimization. Which imho is the whole point of Zope, as it makes building data driven networked applications nearly as simple as clicking together a website in dreamweaver. My philosophy is to make the hardware fast and reliable and to keep speed optimizations as far away from the code as possible. This btw is usually more sufficent and measurabley cheaper for the customers aswell.

Apart from that Zope offers nearly infinite methods for optimization, inlcluding load balancing functions for a Zope farm, intergration of classical external DBs and usage of Zope in conjunction with other products such as the Apache Webserver.

Re:OK we need some input from the Zope heads

[Dub Kat]

"Is it compiled into native code? I know this is more a Python thing but even mentioning an application server built in a scripting language will have me ridiculed out the door."

You're saying you'll be ridiculed for proposing an application server using an interpreted language, because it supposedly can't keep up with a J2EE server?

Maybe Zope, Inc.'s customers disagree. Or photo.net, a site getting over 10,000,000 hits a day that's written in OpenACS, which is itself written totally in Tcl?

If you feel forced to keep using J2EE because you'll be ridiculed otherwise for using a "non-compiled" app server, go ahead. But other developers are likely gaining a lot of productivity by using more dynamic and "slower" interpreted languages. Check out this 22MB quicktime demo movie of the Ruby on Rails framework...pretty awesome stuff.

Linux Virtual Private Servers for Professionals

Re:OK we need some input from the Zope heads

[Feneric]

Zope is an incredibly flexible web application development environment. It can be used for pretty much anything ranging from a full blown CMS with shopping cart facilities to a cutting edge XHTML/CSS showcase site. It works well with all Internet standards (including XML, XHTML, iCalendar, etc.) and most non-standards / semi-standards (PDF, Flash, RSS, etc.). I've even used it to on-the-fly convert definitions from within a CMS to be served by a dict server.

The popular Plone is built on top of Zope / CMF. Ditto for Silva and Nuxeo CPS.

Because Zope is so flexible, the sites it's used for generally look quite different from one another.

Re:Zope ROCKKKSSS

[diablobsb]

oh just on a side note... be careful if you're going to present zope to arabic clients...
it translate to something like "dick" to their language and it took me a while to discover why they laughed everytime i mentioned "zope" ...

Zope's Changing Philosophy

[greg.steffensen]

I'm pretty well versed in Zope 2, and am worried that Zope 3 seems too serious. One of the more common complaints about Zope has been its learning curve; I see no reason that those complaints won't continue with Zope 3. In Zope 2, if you wanted to create a new custom feature, you could create a product. I'm still wrapping my mind around the new concepts, but in Zope 3, it appears that you have to create a component, and maybe an adapter, and maybe a view. And you'll be strongly encouraged to write unit tests for all of it. Also, Zope has 2 templating systems: DTML and ZPT. ZPT is supposed to be the more recent, more correct system, but as far as I can tell, most people, myself included, are continuing to use DTML (I actually think DTML is conceptually superior, since it offers more precise error handling). Both systems are in Zope 3, but it appears that the new DTML has had features actually removed from it, because they theoretically encourage bad code. Zope is written in Python, and one of Python's philosophical guidelines has always been "We're all consenting adults here." I'm worried that Zope 3 in general is strongly pushing developers to create formalized, overdesigned solutions instead of the conceptually simple ones that Zope, and Python in general, currently encourage. I'm worried that Zope is becoming more like J2EE.

Confirmed.

[Qbertino]

Zope X3 is NOT , I repeat, is NOT Zope 3. It's an essential tool on the way to Zope 3, but not Zope 3 itself. So if you're not joining the Zope devteam, quit weighing in on their servers. :-)

Try Ruby (on Rails)

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, I tried Zope once a LONG time ago. Back when I was hungry for a good dynamic object-oriented language and Python was the best I could find. Naturally I sought an application framework as well.

Zope was pretty .. bloated, complex, confusing, opaque. And Python isn't suited to HTML templates at all (being whitespace-sensitive and all). So you need to learn Yet Another Way of generating HTML from code.

If complexity and bloat and big programmer egos turn you off, try Ruby on Rails.

Don't worry if you think you don't want to learn a new language, don't worry if you think Ruby on Rails is just another half-assed open-source framework that you'll explore, run into a wall, and discard.

RoR is a low-level MVC framework, yes. BUT it is *so* efficient that you will be writing high-level components in *hours* instead of days or weeks. You'll create an internal discussion site for your company in a weekend, you'll build a CMS in a matter of weeks, you'll throw together a fully functional bug tracker in 500 lines of code... etc.. remember why you use dynamic languages like Python or Ruby in the first place? That's right, to solve problems FAST! You'll have the same feeling when using Rails "wow.. if the designers send me those mock-ups, I'll have the site finished *before lunch*.

Here's a quick example of how to add a Customer object to your app once you create the database tables:

class Customer < ActiveRecord::Base
end

Yup, that's all. It just automatically adds the right fields, sets the right defaults, and can create associations between objects as well (one line of code each).

Now let's try adding a full set of list/edit/view/etc pages so you can get started with your app right away:

class CustomerController < ActionController::Base
scaffold :customer
end

Now head over to "http://yourapp.com/customer/new" and add your first customer!

That's all.. how long does that take in Struts?

Now.. just head over to rubyonrails.org and watch the demo video. That's all. Just 10 minutes of your life and after you watch the video you can go back to your Zopes and your Struts and your what-have-yous.

Just watch the video.

Zope great in theory ... not so much in practice.

[barwin]

I used to work for a web development firm that slowly went from a primarily Java based atmosphere to an all Zope based model.

Zope looks great on paper, and it was [relatively] easy to convince Management that it would "increase productivity", and would be "easy for the Java developers to learn and switch to". In all fairness, even the Java developers I worked with would agree that Zope offered some great features that other languages didn't offer. Aquisition, for one.

In practice, our Zope projects ended up being disasters. Slow, difficult to develop and debug. (By default, all of your code editing is done using the web based editor, which is just a simple HTML TextArea input). It does NOT lend itself well to development teams of more than a few people, and is so inefficient that you *must* use a caching proxy if you expect any substantial amount of traffic.

It's been about 6 months since I stopped developing in Zope, and I must say my sanity level has increased since then. Of course, I have not tried Zope 3 yet (which was rewritten from scratch apparently), so it definitely deserves a fair shot. I'm simply relaying my past experiences with the Zope 2.5 thru 2.7 versions, for whatever it's worth.

Re:dont have any expectations...

[diablobsb]

ZoDB itself is not scalable... and zope is DOG slow if you run it alone...
*BUT*
the cool thing is that you can add a product called "zope accelerator" or something similar to that
to your zope page and set up a squid in front of zope...
On the squid config, you establish a trust relation pretending that zope (actually this zope accelerator") IS another proxy (sibling).

what happens now is that:
zope sets a expiry date for your non-changing documents to way ahead in the future (you set this value).
and squid caches it... and NEVER asks zope for it until this content expires...
if you change this content, zope will then TELL squid to invalidate it's cache...
so the next user that goes in gets the updated page...

Have you seen how fast squid can get? for serving stuff already in it's cache?

and ZODB itself can't be clustered (actually it can, with ZRS [zope replication services] which is not free from zope.org]) zope can....
and if you benchmark your web pages, you will notice that ZODB takes VERY little % of the processing time... with python + zope itself getting the objects and preparing them for presentation taking up the rest.

So: you can build very scalable zope servers... you just need to know how to do it
think in the lines of : 1 or 2 squids (they can be on the zope servers themselves, as squid takes little CPU), 2 zope servers doing load balance (zope does that natively) and a ZODB server (can be on one of the servers if you are budget constrained).

or you can shell out some cash and get ZRS to replicate everything, including the zodb.

Re:PHP Alternative

[nomadic]

Zope is a Python framework.

If you ever want to clarify a term, don't use the word "framework".

Experience with Zope/Plone

[dangrover]

Working at the RS/GIS Center at CRREL (a US army engineer research and development lab), I was asked to make a brand new website for the building, since the current one stinks. My boss was set on me using Plone/Zope, which I had mixed feelings about.

Plone is a very nice CMS. It has a special wysywig editor for Internet Explorer and is very user friendly. The default skin (and this, I guess, was the reason for choosing it) looks pretty nice and is pretty elegantly coded. The template system that it uses is really cool and XML-based. It can run on any major OS, but there are some issues in moving a site across systems/OSes.

However, the problem is that you can't just run it straight on Apache, like you could with a PHP/MySQL application. It runs its very own web server. So you have to make an entry in your httpd.conf to make a virtual host that goes to the port that the Zope server is running on (which the system admin doesn't want to do). It's actually gonna be hosted on its own server, just to make sure it doesn't upset any of the dependencies that their mission-critical stuff has. So if I wanted to use it for my own purposes on a shared server, I can't.

One problem for me was that making custom content types required knowledge of Python, which I was able to fake my way through somewhat. This is made much easier with something called Archetypes, a bunch of classes and functions that does stuff for you.

I guess the biggest thing that made me uncomfortable with it was that it uses a custom database format and a custom format for storing all the site's files inside of one actual file. And you can't just move that one file, there's other dependency issues and problems with paths if you move it to a different location or OS.

I was, however, to develop the site much quicker with Plone/Zope than I would with developing my own CMS for that purpose or using an existing PHP one. And the end result is pretty nice. It's going to be very impressive. Once a co-worker finishes adding all the content to it, the new site will be up and tunneled from the location I linked to in this article.

Develop on Filesystem. Not ZODB.

[SlightOverdose]

This is one of the biggest missunderstandings about zope.

If you're working with code, you should be storing it on the filesystem. One of the biggest mistakes Zope developers make is to develop inside the ZODB using the textarea, which obviously puts them off zope.

Through-the-web editing is there if you need it. It's handy, but for any serious development you should be developing filesystem products.