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Science's Limits Are Only Self-Imposed

Tristfardd writes "The Independent has a fine article on ridiculous experiments, some of which really are ridiculous, while others have interesting ramifications. If only the article gave links for viewing the rotating frog or the film on self-trepanation."

53 comments

  1. As for the 'soul' experiment... by floW+enoL · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The article forgot to mention that there was indeed a plausible explanation for the 21 grams lost after each person died. No matter how much one exhales, there is always air left in one's body. However, when you die, your lungs relax and thus expel that final bit of air, hence making your corpse a little bit lighter.

    1. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by jazman_777 · · Score: 2, Informative

      21 grams' worth? Take a deep breath, really deep. Air is 1.029 Kg/m**3 (at 70F). For 21 grams, that's .0204 cubic metres, or 20,408 cubic centimetres, or about 10 1992 Honda Accord engines' displacement worth.

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    2. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by ivan256 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Air weighs, give or take depending on the gasses, about 1.2 milligrams per cubic centimeter. To drop 21 grams, you would need to exhale over 25,000 cubic centimeters of gas.

    3. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      I replied to the parent saying almost the same thing, but....

      Now that I think about it more.. That density is at STP. I wonder what the pressure is inside the lungs of a person who is about to die.

    4. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by dykofone · · Score: 3, Funny
      And here I thought I was the only one who measured volume in units of 1992 Honda Accord Engines' Displacement Worths.

      "Nurse! Get this man two point five times ten to the negative squared 1992 Honda Accord Engines Displacement Worths of morphine, STAT!!"

      In critical moments, it avoids confusions and saves precious time.

    5. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by Smidge204 · · Score: 1

      Air has a density at STP of 0.0013 g/cm^3. A pair of large, adult human lungs can hold as much as 6000 cm^3 of air. That's only 7.8 grams assuming the lungs TOTALLY collapse.

      Not that I actually believe the results of the experiment, but this explaination alone seems inadequate.
      =Smidge=

    6. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe someone named Archimedes might have an objection to that statement.

    7. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by pkhuong · · Score: 1

      An 1992HAEDW of morphine... That would be nic..
      CARRIER LOST

      (Figuring out how the post could make sense is left as an exercise to the reader(s))

      --
      Try Corewar @ www.koth.org - rec.games.corewar
    8. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by a+whoabot · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Well if it's true that a soul is 21 grams, than it should be alright with such religious folk who otherwise disagree to abort foetuses under 21 grams, right? I mean, we're not killing anyone if they don't have a soul.

    9. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by polymath69 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      That density is at STP. I wonder what the pressure is inside the lungs[...]

      For back-of-the-envelope purposes, it's the same as STP.

      The actual temperature is a little higher than standard, so by the ideal gas law the density (and weight) goes down a bit; no help there. As for the pressure, it's the same on average in the lungs and the environment, and breathing really doesn't generate much pressure in either direction. (To demonstrate the latter, try to blow up a bicycle tire with your mouth and see if you can get enough pressure in to even measure with a tire gauge. Bet you can't.)

      --

      --
      I don't want to rule the world... I just want to be in charge of mayonnaise.
    10. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by geg81 · · Score: 1

      And why should exhaling air change the weight of the corpse at all?

    11. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by Idarubicin · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The article forgot to mention that there was indeed a plausible explanation for the 21 grams lost after each person died.

      I'm going with the plausible explanation of

      his instruments weren't very precise;

      he saw a loss in weight in only four of the six patients--the others gained weight; and

      he had a result in mind that he wanted to see.

      Also, the air explanation doesn't...er...hold water. Other posters have noted that the mass of air that will fit even in fully inflated lungs is only about (off the top of my head, now) about two or three grams. Plus, as an AC astutely noted, Archimedes would have a problem with this explanation. The air in the lungs won't have any effect on the measured weight of the person, because it's displacing an equal mass of air around the body.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
    12. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by azav · · Score: 1

      Air is pressing down on the scale anyway. It does not matter if it is inside a person or taking the place of a person on the scale. Here, I assume that the air is not compressed.

      --
      - Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
    13. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Air is pressing down on the scale anyway

      Experiment: Get a balloon. Fill it up with air. Weigh it. (tech. "Mass" it). Release the air. Mass again. (I do the filled then unfilled to negate any claims that there is spittle weighing down the balloon. The real sceptics can figure out their own controls for that.)

      Guess what. It's heavier filled than empty. Hard to believe, but true.

    14. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by jazman_777 · · Score: 1
      And here I thought I was the only one who measured volume in units of 1992 Honda Accord Engines' Displacement Worths.

      Well, that's the car I drive and it has a 2100 CC engine, and I needed a nice easy image. Of course, for those of us who aren't car junkies, 2100 CC of displacement doesn't mean a lot, but if an engine has it, it must be a lot!

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    15. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by jazman_777 · · Score: 1

      And not only that, check my sig. Hoist by my own petard!

      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    16. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      he saw a loss in weight in only four of the six patients--the others gained weight

      Obviously, the scientific explanation is that two of the six patients absorbed the souls of the other four.

    17. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The filled balloon will weigh slightly more because the air inside it is compressed.
      This will not be the case with the dead body if there is a clear path to the lungs.

    18. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by Gnulix · · Score: 2, Funny
      for the 21 grams lost after each person died

      I would suspect that this is the weight of the superstition and beliefs that disappear once the dead person discovers that there is no afterlife...

    19. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by gedhrel · · Score: 1

      Pressing down, and sideways, and up. Pressure is a scalar.

    20. Re:As for the 'soul' experiment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      6 million people killed in the German Shoah (holocaust)

      over 40 million kids aborted since roe v wade.
      (the American shoah)

      Ever seen a partial birth abortion? Here's your chance to see diagrams:

      http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/PBA_Images/PBA_ Im ages_Heathers_Place.htm

  2. Prozac to clams by JCMay · · Score: 1

    I've been a science fair judge for a few years here in Brevard County. One of the projects I saw (but didn't get to judge), was finding the effects of yohimbe on clams. The student had done a very good job, one variable and she even had a control group (don't get me started on the quality of most science fair projects!).

    The results: feeding yohimbe to clams made them reproduce faster!

  3. Frog levitation... by wanerious · · Score: 4, Informative
    I'll pimp myself out --- here's the link to the project:

    Floating Frogs

    1. Re:Frog levitation... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      In the movies it almost looks like the frog is in a liquid rather than floating in air. Perhaps the camera should move back and forth a bit and/or up and down to offer more perspective (paralax).

    2. Re:Frog levitation... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      From the floating frogs page:

      "The small frog looked comfortable inside the magnet and, afterwards, happily joined its fellow frogs in a biology department."

      I'm fairly sure that if anyone had actually asked the frog's opinion, they'd find it may not have been too happy about the "biology department" part...

  4. Very useful Brazil nut experiment by dickeya · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The sorting issue as defined in the Brazil nut experiment came up recently while I was on a field survey of some land in Nevada. It was a mapping project and we kept coming across areas known as "Desert pavement". This area of the desert experiences the same sorting activity when water or wind is added to the mix.

    Though this seems a bit trivial, it has very serious implications for later rain events. This sorting makes the soil mostly impervious to water and contributes to some of the deadly flood events that can occur in these arid environments.

    This said, be careful pouring water on that holiday display of mixed nuts.....

    1. Re:Very useful Brazil nut experiment by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 1

      The result is only one of a number of odd things in granular flow studies. It's still a very poorly understood set of physics, but with a lot of applications. Mixing products, including drugs, often requires understanding granular flows, for example.

  5. Trepanation Howto by HavokDevNull · · Score: 2, Interesting
    --
    Sig
    1. Re:Trepanation Howto by orangesquid · · Score: 2, Interesting
      --
      --TheOrangeSquid Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive
  6. Trenpnashun by furry_marmot · · Score: 4, Funny
    I non't recomnednd self-treepinashin. 'cuz ow.

  7. Floating Frogs? Sure, we've got those. by IpsissimusMarr · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here in my department at FSU we are fortunate enough to have the National High Magnetic Field Laboratory, which develops the stongest magnets on the planet. Couple this with a professor with a sense of humor and you get .... That right! A Frog floating in a magnetic field! Along with golf balls, dice, and other things. When we asked him why he says, because you can. :) Check out the movies:

    http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/science/levitation/

    --
    "Engineers do the work of man, Physicists do the work of God"
    1. Re:Floating Frogs? Sure, we've got those. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      When we asked him why he says, because you can. :)

      Oh sure. When he makes a frog float because he can, it's all in good fun. But when I try to create a man-octopus hybrid suddenly I'm a monster!

      Honestly, sometimes I wonder why I even bother...

  8. a different movie by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

    Check out www.trepan.com. They have a movie about their organization, which unfortuately does not show a trepanation.

    --
    Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
  9. Soul experiment was bad science by merdark · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The soul experiment was terribly bad science, and from it we can only conclude that the man who performed it believed in a soul, and hence found that.

    Details can be found here:
    http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.a sp

    Some of the short points are:
    * small sample size of 4 cases
    * the results varied widely
    * deciding upon the exact time of death is no easy task

    All in all, the experiment proves nothing.

    1. Re:Soul experiment was bad science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well, the thing is even if there is a soul it is highly unlikely to weigh anything as by its very nature it is beyond our physical world.

    2. Re:Soul experiment was bad science by merdark · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If it interacts with us, then it is by definition part of our physical world.

      If it has absolutely no interaction with us, then I don't see how you can associate it with us.

  10. m00 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    More recently, scientists turned their attention to calculating the amount of methane that cows produce as they burp and fart their way through the day.

    Hey that sounds like some people I know!

    1. Re:m00 by WGR · · Score: 5, Informative
      I actually worked on this (writing software for the measuring instruments). We put flow metres on a cow barn roof to catch the ouput of methane over some months, using ultrasonic wind speed measurements and instruments to measure methane as it passed by the fans. We also measured the CO2, water and other gasses as they were exchanged between the barn and the outside.

      We really found a significant amount of methane and it depended a lot on what feed had been given to the cows. Since methane is one of the most significant green house gasses (much more potent per gram than CO2, just less of it), we could make recommendations for feed to help lessen the outgassing.

      The other big source of methane is rotting vegetation in swamps. Often a swamp will have little flames rising over it as the methane burns, creating a lot of legends of ghosts and swamp monsters. Because you get a lot of rotting vegetation in the lakes created by large dams, big hydro projects create almost as much a greenhouse effect as fossil fuel plans creating the same amount of electricty, although this diminishes over time, unlike with fossil fuels.

  11. Levitating Frogs by azav · · Score: 1

    I saw the video of the magnetically levitated frog a few years ago. Though high magnetic foelds might have adverse affects on the bogy, the frog was there floating in an enclosure.

    I'll try to dig it up and post on mac.com later unless someone beats me to it.

    --
    - Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
    1. Re:Levitating Frogs by azav · · Score: 3, Informative

      Blessed be thine google.

      http://www.hfml.sci.kun.nl/froglev.html

      http://www.hfml.sci.kun.nl/levitation-movies.htm l

      http://www.hfml.ru.nl/pics/Movies/frog.mpg

      --
      - Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
  12. More fun with grains by blether · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The brazil nut experiment reminded me of this fascinating result. If you shake a container of granular material, the granular material spontaneously collects together in one place.

    The same page also has a cool video of granular eruption.

  13. Videos of the levitating objects (frog included) by Fiery · · Score: 1
  14. Re:Look on the bright side by Bastian · · Score: 1, Funny

    At least you'll never suffer from the lack of a good pencil holder.

  15. I imagine you'll be able to see it soon... by stienman · · Score: 2, Funny

    the film on self-trepanation.

    Chances are it'll feature on the Darwin Awards soon enough for everyone.

    -Adam

  16. other odd measurements by cliffyqs · · Score: 1

    suggested by a line in a poem on an album, we could start measuring force (and speed) using the butterfly sneeze (bs) as the base unit.

    it would work...

    --
    I have nothing witty to fill this space with yet.
  17. as seen on tv by cliffyqs · · Score: 1

    I saw this on tv a couple times, I think. Fun, and yet very weird. Scientists need to have more fun, it would be good for creativity, and creativity brings new ideas (instead of support for current ones).

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    I have nothing witty to fill this space with yet.
  18. film in DarwinVision by cliffyqs · · Score: 1

    just keep your browser tuned to http://www.darwinawards.com/. If you don't see trepanation, you'll see lots of other odd stuff.

    --
    I have nothing witty to fill this space with yet.
  19. Einstein forgot one factor by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

    Anything that a scientist can calculate, he or she will. Einstein calculated in his youth that putting his socks on in the morning and taking them off again at night would occupy him some hundreds of hours during the course of his life, and thereafter went sockless.

    Yes, but did he calculate the time wasted dating new girls from scratch due to his foot oder?

    1. Re:Einstein forgot one factor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Yes, but did he calculate the time wasted dating new girls from scratch due to his foot oder?"

      No, he was married, and it has been conclusively proven that marriage causes time to slow down...

  20. Got Napkins? by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

    If you have a sensitive disposition, you would be wise to skip straight to the next topic. Trepanation (cutting a hole in the skull to relieve pressure) was practised by the ancient Egyptians. In the 1960s, Joey Mellen and Amanda Feilding decided to try it in the hope that it would "expand their consciousness". Unable to find any doctors willing to perform the operation, they each did it on themselves...

    Yeah, "expand" all over the floor.

  21. More ridiculous science that later proved genuine. by amasci · · Score: 2, Informative

    Bravo! I love this kind of article, and wish there were far more of them.

    We in the sciences need to fight our tendency to suppress the embarrassing history of mistaken scoffing; where new discoveries are rejected because if they were real, they'd make the scientific community look like fools. Suppress? Yes. It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you. And it may not be conscious suppression, but the effects are the same. If we take a detailed look at the history of science, it's quite fascinating to see which discoveries were ridiculed at the time. And it's amazing that this ridicule is not common knowledge. Perhaps historians of science need to focus more on digging up dirt, rather than letting scientists tell their own sanitized version of history. For example, try to find any texts which mention:

    String Theory
    rejected by the wider community, kept alive almost entirely by Caltech's John Schwartz, the "pariah of the physics department," who only avoided being fired because of secret support by Murray Gell-Mann. The work was set back ~10 years by widespread sneering. See "Feynman's Rainbow," also "Euclid's Window"

    Black Holes
    Proposed in 1930 by S. Chandra, who was hounded out of his department by Arthur Eddington and supporters, since black holes would ruin one of Eddington's theories (later proved wrong.) The work was only taken up again in the 1960s, so Eddington's actions set black hole research back by thirty years.

    Scanning-tunneling microscope.
    Ridiculed by the microscope community. Apparently the project avoided setbacks mostly because its discoverers attracted early support by the Nobel prize committee. See Science News, Atom Tinkerer's Paradise

    Non-euclidian geometry
    The field was explored by K. F. Gauss, who fearing ridicule, kept all his papers secret until the end of his life. Lobachevsky did some similar work and did attract scorn. The topic was finally taken seriously after several more decades passed. Doppler effect.
    Proposed in 1842, but ridiculed and ignored because it contradicted the Aether theory of light. Stellar red shift finally penetrated the wall of scorn two decades later (after Doppler himself had died.)



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    Other more famous instances of ridiculed/vindicated discoveries:

    Lynn Margulis, mitochondria, chloroplasts, etc., were once independant cells. Barbara McClintlok's "jumping genes"

    Robert Goddard, finally vindicated when those idiotic spaceships of his were taken seriously by Nazi scientists.

    Weltner's continental drift theory

    Wright Brothers. Ridiculed by top US scientists and Scientific American magazine, they finally had to move to France before anyone would believe their claims or even come to observe their machine in action.

    Arrhenius, ion chemistry. Nearly lost his degree because ions were a heresy (atoms were known to be indivisible.)

    Ignaz Semmelweis, doctors should wash hands before surgery. (Semmelweis fought the medical community for ~10 years, and ended up committing suicide in an insane asylum.)

    L. Galvani, electricity. "They call me the frogs' dancing master."

    W. Harvey, circulation of blood. The medical community ostracized him.

    --

    ((((((((((((( ( ( ( (o) ) ) ) )))))))))))))
    SCIENCE HOBBYIST amasci.com

  22. Re:More ridiculous science that later proved genui by falzer · · Score: 1

    I like your site.
    - A long-time reader

  23. Re:More ridiculous science that later proved genui by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    An excellent list! I look forward to the next major addition to it, when we all have cold fusion reactors in our basements!