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Interview with EA Attorney
An anonymous reader writes "Kotaku has an outline of a discussion with one of the attorneys handling the EA case. It has some interesting details, including the fact that if the judgment is in favor of the employees it will likely force the entire game industry, at least in California, to start paying OT and Comp. "Depending on the nature of a positive judgment, other employers with similar job descriptions would most likely be required to start paying their employees by the hour and paying overtime" The article also hints that other game industry cases might be forthcoming."
I have to admit, I feel kind of sorry for EA. As I've said before, EA seems to sort of be the scapegoat for all of the world's corporate woes. Sadly, I don't think that this will spur change from the whole industry, but rather imrpove life at EA (as is the point). Unfortunately, I don't think that this type of action will have the same effect at another company for two reasons: first off, they won't have as much press, and secondly it won't be such a novel idea anymore.
My support still stays with the employees of EA and the other companies that treat their employees like this.
- dshaw
The problem is of course that if the employees succeed but the judgement is enforceable only in California, all the gaming companies will simply move their operations somewhere more condusive to their business practices.
Which is not to say that the employees shouldn't be pursuing the matter but simply that attempting to change the employer's practices through a state court action might not, in the longer term, have the desired result.
A second issue is would such a judgement set good precedent that applies to the software industry in California as a whole. It would seem likely that it would have a fairly 'chilling' effect on the development industry in California if it did.
This was not a very good article; It woud have been better to post something more informative.
Love sees no species.
I assume that EA will complain about having to do that to compete or something like that ("We can't higher more because it's too expensive!"), but that doesn't bother me either. Sure programmers in SanFran or the Valley or LA are expesive, but a big part of that is because they have to be able to afford those exorbitantly expensive homes there. If they would create a division outside of Madison, WI or Wichita, KS or some other nice city with more reasonable housing prices they wouldn't have to pay programmers so much. "In-source" to rural America (I saw an article about it the other day). When a small house costs 100-200k and not 1-2m, you don't have to pay your programmers nearly as much for the same standard of living. In fact, you can pay them less, and they can still have a BETTER standard of living. And it's not like a programming team can't be located anywhere. Surf instructors may not be able to do their job in Kansas (relative to CA), but a programmer's location doesn't matter that much.
It's one thing if EA specifically told employees the kind of hours they'd be working, but it sounds like they didn't, which is basically exploitation to me. Sorry, they sound guilty and this sounds like a good thing.
Of course, I'm not a big fan of EA in the first place. Just FYI.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
This could mean that the race for producing games at the cheapest cost possible will either slow down (good) or that the incredibly greedy suits as EA will start to outsource to india (bad).
Or worse the companies in general will just outsource to some place like China or India...
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
"Wow, Overrated should not be allowed on a post that hasn't received any moderation. That's just abusive."
Why exactly? I could get a "2" for this comment, however, I will forgo my karma because it is off-topic. I assume you believe that the "overrated" category should only be applied to posts that have been moderated-a reasonable viewpoint but one I don't agree with. Just because you can post at 0, 1 or 2 doesn't mean your comment is worth it...
And if it is rated as "overrated" it HAS been moderated. Not that I agree with the moderation- but that is another issue.
http://www.abelard.org/e-f-russell.htm
As an employee of a video game publisher, who works in the studio side, and who does not feel exploited, I hope EA wins.
And I HATE EA.
Join your friends on the other side EA, go to the light, frolick with Interplay, Sierra, Acclaim, and take Vivendi with you while you're at it.
I worked for a company founded by some EA guys, and also for another electronic entertainment company (run by non-EA people); I know something about this industry.
When I got hired, they were always upfront about the killer hours. I agreed to them because I wanted the work. I didn't do it for money: I wanted to do the job.
I worked 2 weeks straight (didn't go home) at one place; this was OK with me. I worked 3 weeks straight at another place. All voluntary.
The company was amazing to me because of the tolerance of all kinds of oddities -- as long as we were on schedule. This was in contrast to other environments that were less productivity oriented, where dress and hours were regulated. This matters: in one environment, you don't have nerf fights and your pay and hours are constant, regardless of productivity. In another, you have fun, but you take the schedule risk.
If I was a manager and people started talking "comp time" and "exempt", I'd point out: no dress code, no fixed hours -- just deliver the results when you said you would -- or quit, please, so that the rest of us can get on with the project.
Really, if you want comp time and overtime, you'd better get a job at the Post Office or in a Detroit-area auto manufacturer. Working in games? Negotiate your pay as if you'll be working 12 hours, seven days a week when you are behind schedule.
Personally, if there is going to be a lawsuit, why not one over the mental suffering caused when the publisher kills your title, and you see that a year or more of your work is worthless? That's got to be one of the most devastating work experiences I've ever had -- not the long hours.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_
Which is exactly why EA will do everything in their power to end the case with an out of court settlement. Note to those suing EA: Please, don't settle! Take it all the way.
Do not read this sig.
If EA loses, their profit margins will shrink, or they will cut costs, reducing quality of games, or increase prices, to recoup the "lost profit". As a gamer, I dont want to see prices go up (or quality go down), but as a future possible employee of EA, I want to see the employees win. In the end I think that people should get what is right, and EA should start paying. But it looks like Management at EA would be quite a sweet job. Maybe I should switch majors...
Amateurs give their work away. Professionals get paid for it. If you're working overtime, especially lots of it, and you're not getting paid or comped for it, you're not a professional, you're an amateur.
Look at your bosses, the board, the executives, are they working for free? No, of course not, if they're working more than 40 a week, you can be sure they are getting compensated. I've been in the industry for over 2 decades now and I have learned that if you're not getting paid for your overtime, you are going to get F***'d bigtime. If they are promising you comp time, but don't put it in writing, you'll never see it. Same with ANY promises of ANY kind of payoff later on, unless it's in writing (and even then count your fingers after shaking hands) you won't see it.
In short, people who regularly make you work over 40 and don't pay you for it are SCUM. They're ripping you off, and they know it. I've worked on some of the most 'gee-whiz' crap ever to come out of DOD or private industry. They never asked us to work 'killer hours' without paying us. Why? Cause people who work 'killer hours' are less productive than those who work only 40. And after two plus decades in high tech, I can say that's definitely true.
Enjoy. http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20041114
Send Peter Clifford Francis Macrae comdoms to 23 Bedford St, St.Neots, PE19 1AX, England
Is there anything better than trolls misspelling "moron"? I don't think so. Please take off your "moran belt" before attempting any future posts. Thanks.
First, People with lousy jobs can always quit and find other jobs. That isn't a reason that they should, however. I think that people should be fairly compensated for what they contribute to a company, whether the employer can get away with paying less or not. I don't think a game developers union would be a good thing in the long run, but it is one solution to this problem.
Second, most game developers don't get paid very well-- 30k-40k for an 80 hour a week job. That's $10 an hour, which is not the realm in which the overtime exemption laws were intended to operate. Overtime exemption is intended for salaried employees (e.g. , executives) who are well compensated for doing "whatever it takes."
-m
If the whole industry is forced to change how positions are defined, due to the alleged actions of only one member, the consequences to the industry cannot be predicted. My company does not treat me like the EA employees allege that they are treated. However, I am covered under the artistic/self-managed/studio side and am considered an exempt employee. They pay me a certain amount of money to get a certain job done, not by how many hours I work. I happen to like this situation. If my position, and those of many of my friends who I have worked with for many years, is redefined under the law by this ruling, some of our jobs will certainly be eliminated.
There must have been a better way to handle this than litigation.
EA was not expecting people to work those hours when not on schedule.
EA is demanding those hours to stay on shcedule. The schedule is essentially set up to assume those brutal hours from the start, from what I understand of the situation.
END COMMUNICATION
Because, as the Moderation FAQ says, Overrated is for a comment that has been moderated out of proportion.
I assume you believe that the "overrated" category should only be applied to posts that have been moderated-a reasonable viewpoint but one I don't agree with.
It's not simply that I believe that (I do) but that the admins have explicitly stated that's its purpose. I guess they don't care too much about the abuse potential though, since it's a pretty well known loophole.
Just because you can post at 0, 1 or 2 doesn't mean your comment is worth it...
Of course not, but that's why there are mods like "Offtopic". The original post here was on-topic and not in any way redundant. It could certainly be disagreed with, but modding it down was just abusive, plain and simple.
First off, not everyone from rural America is a "moran." I mean, you're probably not from rural America, but obviously a "moran," right?
Besides that, you're putting the cart before the horse. Companies don't go where people with skills are, people with skills go where the companies are. Gaming companies won't have any problem "highering" people, no matter where they're based.
If life is a waste of time and time is a waste of life, let's all get wasted and have the time of our lives.
If a ruling in favor of the employees has an effect on all game development, so be it. I know some smaller development houses will go out of business, since their "perpetual crunch time" was their way of competing, but in the end, the entire game industry needs reform.
I worked in game development myself, and frankly, the unrealistic crunch modes only have the effect of pushing out poor quality software. If more attention were paid to hiring managers who actually have proper experience managing staff resources and time, they wouldn't run into the need for as much crunch time. They also need to reform their product launch schedules and all adopt more of a "when it's done" approach so people can work sane hours and put out a good product.
While that approach won't work for all companies, so be it. If the only way you can put out a complete game is by rushing it out the door, we [the game consumers] don't want your crap!
Also wanted to add that along with proper resource management, more companies need to be doing "post-mortems" on their completed project. THis sounds like a no-brainer, but most companies don't do this, and many do it, but not properly (and thus the same mistakes get repeated time and time again).
EA just *shut down* its studios in places like Austin Texas and moved them to california.
IMO, and this is just my opinion, I haven't checked the faq, but the Karma bonus is SELF-moderation. you have the option not to use it, I don't by default. I've never used the overrated mod, or redundant for that matter, I try to look for the gems in the rough as the moderation faq recommends and mod them up.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed