Slashdot Mirror
TiVo to Sell Your Fast-Forward Button
Thomas Hawk writes "PVRblog is reporting today that TiVo will begin to place banner advertisements on your screen when you are fast forwarding. As one of the whole points for people getting a TiVo is to remove obtrusive advertising, it seems like a really bad move to force advertising on people at the exact moment that they are using your technology to avoid advertising. This act points to the desperation of TiVo and their management team and although it might help them in the short run it will most certainly backfire in the long run." This is ironic for a company whose slogan used to be "TV Your Way," but not surprising, since its CEO says he wants to move to a largely advertiser-supported revenue stream. I've bought three TiVos in the past four years, but my next PVR will run MythTV -- unless HR2391 passes and makes me a criminal for skipping commercials.
The real value-add from TiVo here (for me, anyway) is not so much avoiding commercials as it is saving time.
...
If the banner-ad-while-fast-forwarding still allows me to skip 4 minutes of commercials in 5 seconds, that's fine with me, as long as the banner-ad goes away when I'm *not* fast-forwarding
First of all, HR 2391 doesn't make it criminal to "skip commercials".
It's meant to disallow technologies that bypass commercial and advertising content explicitly (such as things like the commercial skip features of old which skipped all ads, regardless of length, and returned you to the programming, or features that simply delete or auto-skip ad content altogether), but it won't prevent good ol' "fast forward" and 30 second skip features from working, nor will it make their use, even for commercial content, "criminal".
However, it's the implementation that is the concern. If the law is *interpreted* to mean that even things like fast forwarding through commercials are inappropriate, well, then we have a problem. But that is NOT the intent nor the purpose.
On the subject of TiVo and placing banner ads during fast forwarding, and the general idea of *automatic* ad content skipping/deletion:
If the entire TV industry is predicated on advertising, and the idea of advertising is predicating on paying to have as many people see your ads as possible (and the payment is proportional to proven amounts of people who may be watching), if an increasing number of people (many in educated and financially stable demographics) have the capability to avoid ever seeing any advertising, what, exactly, makes it worthwhile for advertisers to continue paying for it, at least at the same levels? You are choosing to watch content whose creation and delivery is funded in large part by advertising revenues. What funds it if that model is completely broken?
Sure, your cable/satellite bill can, but only to a point. There are billions of dollars that come from advertising. Is there not that side to this story as well?
What about newspapers? Sure, you can argue that newspaper ads aren't "intrusive", in a time-dependent way, but would a newspaper or its advertisers welcome a service that made it free or easy to eliminate all ads, and keep the other content, while still keeping the newspaper cost at 50 cents?
Additionally, I've seen people here and elsewhere say they actually wouldn't mind "advertising" for products and services they're actually interested in - but at the same time, people argue against giving anyone the data needed to do exactly that kind of targeted advertising as a violation of privacy.
So, my question is, what takes the place of the advertising revenue? How and when is it acceptable for products to be advertised?
TiVo stock was up 7% yesterday on no news whatsoever and another 4% today. (Where "no news whatsoever" means "already known through back channels to everybody on the rumor boards, as well as close personal friends of the executives.)
So the people who own TiVo seem to think that this is a profitable idea. Not just "profitable" in the sense of "charging more" but profitable in the sense of "making more money total", i.e. revenue - customers lost - lawsuits.
Well, the PS2 Eyetoy has show that it's possible for a small camera to track your head movements.
So what could happen in the future is that the camera could be used to track whether or not you're actually watching the commercials or not, and charge you more for each commercial that you get up and take a piss during.
If you don't want to use the camera at all, that's fine, but you'll spend more on your service compared to someone who watches all commercials.
Just thinking out loud here. I'm sure someone will come up with this, and decide to offer it
Allow me to begin by saying that I just purchased a TiVo less then a week ago. I actually netted it for a lousy $30 ($180 on Amazon - $50.00 promotional certificate - $100 mail-in rebate) figuring that I'd get the cheapest one and could always add a Hard Drive later (thanks to TiVo still being somewhat hacker-friendly).
In one lousy week it has already changed the way I watch TV. Just the quick case in point: I didn't start watching Amazing Race until 9:45pm last night. By 11:30 I had seen both Amazing Race and Jon Stewart -- without watching a single commercial. That's 45 minutes of my life to do productive things (or surf Slashdot).
Needless to say I will be the first one to cancel my service (after-all I only have a $30 investment) and stick pins into my TiVo voodoo dolls if they take the fast-forwarding away from me. What the heck would be the point of a DVR if they were to do that? I'd just go back to my VCR days.
But if all they intend to do is place some advertisements on your screen while you are fast-forwarding then what exactly is the big deal? Did Jamie bother to RTFA before he went on his rant about switching to MythTV? To quote: "Kent says the advertising revenue will probably bring down the cost of TiVo to its 2 million subscribers -- currently $12.95 a month" So they sell some ad space (that I can just ignore for those 5-10 seconds I am FF'ing -- less if you use the 30 second hack) and my service becomes cheaper?
Perhaps we should adopt a wait-and-see approach before we break out the torches and pitchforks.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
...yet.
I still have 30-sec skip out of the box and the ability to download shows to my PC with free tools over the built in NIC. Sure, it may not run Linux, but it has 2 advantages over TiVO:
1. It doesn't force me to watch commercials while fast forwarding.
2. It doesn't assume I'm a gay octogenarian and record shows it thinks I'll love.
-EvilMagnus
Well it depends. Will it be just a banner or will it have sound? Frankly I hate most commercials because they are just stupid. I have a suggestion to increase add revinue. Less ads. Do not show a block of four ads twice in an 30 minute show. Show only two 30 second spots in a 30 minute show AND charge more for them. I would be a lot less likly to surf to another channel or ff over one short ad than a two minute block of ads. Think of it like a magazine. I am more likly to see that full page ad than one of 6 ads cramed on a page. I will tend to skip over it. I might also be more likley to read a single 1/4 page ad in the middle of a page of text than a big block of ads.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I actually wouldn't object to ads so much if they were more targetted. I couldn't care less about the latest grill or set of knives etc. However if your telling me about a new cheap plasma screen, ipod etc. then I don't mind so much.
I still want to be able to skip ads, but you never know if they were more targetted perhaps I wouldn't skip them as much in the first place *shrugs*
No, people buy (or bought) their TiVo to get to their desired content (ie the show) faster. If the time lag reduction remains the same, what's the damn problem?
It's not the advertising itself, it's the time wasted with the advertising.
That would be lovely though, wouldn't it... we need someone to develope a cable service where we can just watch and pay for the shows we want to watch without having any commercials. too bad the business plan for that is a bad one :(
If you are expecting something here, I don't know what to tell you...
Slider's totally right, CHILL OUT. 1. It's a great extension of an already implemented harmless feature. "Want more info? Press Thumbs Up?" 2. Tivo is just as much about time-shifting TV content, and buffering the live stream as it is about abbreviating commericals. 3. Even the most hardcore PVR user has on occasion, backed up to see a funny or compelling ad, so let's stop acting like commericial content is demon spawn that some in this group would imply.
Not really. For Road Runner I am paying around $40 a month and I am pay $7.50 For Basic (not standard) cable. The $7.50 payes for the cable. the $40 for Road Runner pays for the cable (again) and the Internet Service. Standard cable which is around $30 give you some extra crap to watch. But it is all the stuff with comericals. Thus the $30 is almost all profit for them. Now comes to the issue that I don't know. Do the Statations pay the cable company to view there stuff or does the cable company pay the Stations to play there stuff. Now if the company pays the station then the station shouln't have as many comericals but they have more then normal broadcast TV. If the stations pay the Cable Company then why are we paying to get stations that they are already making money off of. It seems that in entertainment we get screwed both ways.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Lets turn scenario in a way that benefits you:
You're not really looking at anything useful while you're using the restroom - why not let some company come in and install ads there?
Why not let the ads run on the TV while going for refreshment...
And when you're lying in bed, getting ready to go to sleep (or just waking up), there's a perfect blank space on your ceiling for some more ads.
Lets back load all adds from TIVO to certain hours of the day. My Tivo is never turned off but I turn off the TV and sleep. This is an optimal time for all commercials to run. Let the Tivo unit run commercials like a screen saver.
And if you're taking a walk in the woods, hey, you've seen one tree, you've seen 'em all, right? Ads!
Hmm I'm not sure where your going with this but if it's your land do with it as you legally please.
Just because a space is empty does NOT mean it's OK to put ads there.
Like I said try to twist everything to benefit you.
Fine, but can I not pay for the delivery of the Home Shopping Network, Telemundo, Catholic TV, and every other channel that I'm forced to take against my will?
The whole point of Cable TV when it was introduced is to offer people a scheme whereby they payed to NOT see commercials. Then execs realized they could make more money by forcing you to watch commercials in addition to paying for TV.
Same thing with movies. For a while, the justification of higher movie ticket prices was the fact that you didn't have to see commercials before the movie. Now they brought that back, so you are once again paying for both content and commercials (typically I will be 10-15 minutes late to a movie so I don't have to sit through commercials.)
Even websites are getting increasingly annoying. A web browser without a popup ad blocker is almost useless. Half the websites you go to, you have to register to view any content, so the company can spam your inbox with product ads. God forbid a person read any content without a million ads in their face.
Now even TiVo has sadly succum to what seems to be a very bad trend in the US. TiVo was one of the few companies that seemed to understand that people DON'T want to constantly be smothered by rediculus ads. One of the few companies using a technology to give power back to the people. But it looks like it wasn't meant to last. Time to kiss that all goodby, and say hello to more pop up ads and spam.
And execs wonder why people do things like pirate TV shows and movies? When you treat your customers like little babies, guess what? Eventually people get pissed off, and will go out of their way to find an alternative system that works for them. Even if it's illegal.
A long time ago, upon becoming an adult, I decided that the so called "entertainment value" of TV was no longer worth my time, due to the constant and disgusting attempts at psychological manipulation and subversion.
It's a shame, because I thought TIVO was eventually going to change that viewpoint for me, and that maybe I'd watch a little more TV. Nope. Glad I didn't buy one.
Look, strangers don't have a right to your psychological anchors and desires. These people study mind control for a living. Entertainment will eventually be ad-free, or we can expect a large percentage of the educated populace to forego it. Consumer voodoo does not deserve storage on even a single wrinkle of my brain.
The sad thing is that even movies are getting spammed these days.
here in estonia we already have this, a major broadband company is providing a service where you can watch shows and movies from the local tv stations, they will up your bandwith for the streaming and the charge will be added to your cable bill
Tivo has had it's ups and downs, and it shows.
But just as important as the price, is the number of stocks trading (the little logarithmic graph below the main graph). This is a direct (albeit, relative) indication of it's popularity. You want people talking about your product; some will be cussing it, others will be deciding about it, and still other will be smoozing others into it. But they are talking about it, and people walking by just happen to hear about it, creating even more discussion. Which leads to window shopping, which leads to people walking out with a Tivo and an audio receiver.
But this little maneuver with the "banner ads" will remind people of adware and spyware and malware and popups. It will remind people of spam.
You do not want to relate your product to spam...
HBO is doing this. There are also cable companies that offer "on demand" services, that let you watch programs when you want, without commercials.
While you're entitled to your opinion about what's "worth watching", there are millions of Americans willing to watch just about anything. The networks are still doing quite well with the quality of shows they are currently producing. Things are probably going to get worse before they get better.
I actually own the TIVO stock.
The price drop was due to the break in the relationship between TIVO and DirectTV.
Investors didn't think TIVO could make it without being directly related to a service provider. The sentiment is slowly changing as more and more people suscribe to TIVO independent of DirectTV.
I sure hope it comes back more. I lost my shirt. They had everything going for them until that announcement.
-Mark
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
I doubt they'll lower the cost; they'll just consider this a way to lower losses.
I'd own a second (and possibly third) Tivo if I didn't have to buy subscriptions for all of them. That's just lunacy, especially when the two other units could just copy the data from one of the units, in effect costing Tivo zero in delivery costs.
If the banner ads are a problem, I'll just keep using my 2nd gen standalone until it craps out and then rent (for $5 per month) a hidef PVR from the cable company. It'll suck more than the Tivo, but it'll record Hidef (satellite HDTivo isn't an option where I live) and I won't have any money sunk into the hardware.
Among Tivo's many idiotic decisions are wasting too much development effort on non-core features (such as MP3s and photos), failure to deliver more core features (batch save/play), no cablecard-based unit on the horizon (HD recording, no IR blasting for digital cable channels), and little if any evolution of the hardware (firewire disk expansion and DVD-R add-ons).
Adding banner ads is just another stupid decision on their part to cover up the other stupid decisions on their part.
It's about time for the cheap, generic PVRs from China to start appearing. Pure product, no service, price around $79 and dropping.
Just over four years here.
Whenever I get stuck in the vicinity of a blaring TV set (e. g., waiting room) I become very uncomfortable; it feels to me as if I were being pounded on, the absolute worst being daytime shows like low brow talk shows featuring low class idiots and corresponding commercials (used cars, bad credit, shysters, plugs for other idiot shows, etc.)
I bring something to read, but if I can't find a quiet place to sit, I might have to consider bringing earplugs.
Best troll I've read all week.
Sigh. Trolls used to be a whole lot better. In the old days, someone would have argued that not watching advertising was equivalent to murder, or something.
TiVo is essentially capturing a TV signal, filtering out the original advertising, and replacing it with their own. If this isn't IP theft, I don't know what is. The TV networks and their advertisers should sue, and if they do, they should win.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
I own 3 TiVO's and have modified them with larger disks, network connectivity, and video extraction capability. I've been doing this since I bought my first TiVO in Fall 2000.
One of the primary drawbacks to root'ing your TiVO was that the next time a software update was transmitted from the magic entertainment boob in the sky, all your hard work would be erased, as the update would wipe the OS install clean (usually).
While my work in the TiVO community has dwindled significantly in the past months, I did happen to take note of a warning that said something to the effect of "Disable Remote Update". I'm not certain what this feature of the hack does, but it sounds (at least from the name) that it would not allow TiVO or DTV to upgrade your TiVO's OS from 3.1 to 3.x in the future.
I'm going to go look into that option now. But I think that if you really feel strongly about TiVO and DTV whoring themselves to the ad-nipple in California, you might want to invest a Saturday afternoon in root'ing your TiVO so that you won't receive this unwanted feature.
-c
Do it for da shorties
Perhaps your definition of popular is different than mine. The La Times article says
Put another way, 80 to 95% of the TIVO viewers don't care for the feature.In your dictionary, are "SPAM" and "popular" synonymous?
Once upon a time, I watched little to no TV -- and by that, I mean I watched a Simpson's episode once every few weeks, and that was it.
Then TiVo came along (my wife, who watches TV, wanted it) and I was totally drawn in. Freed from having to pay attention to programming schedules and whatnot, and given the ability to pause live TV and skip commercials, I started watching more TV. Now, a weekly roster includes NASCAR racing, three or four programs from the Cartoon Network, the Daily Show, and other tidbits.
Then, several months ago, TiVo tried a new kind of advertisement wherein an interstitial ad popped up when you tried to reach the main menu, asking you if you wanted to find out more, or continue on to the menu. It infuriated me (and others in public forums) because it put the advertising in the way of the menu I was trying to access, which was highly intrusive.
I was ready to get rid of TiVo at that point, but evidentally the TiVo folks got a lot of flak for it, because the next ad showed up as a link in the main menu instead -- and I decided it was acceptable since I could safely ignore it.
Well, my jury's still out on this one. If the ads are merely visual annoyances that can be ignored (I do, after all, watch NASCAR, so I'm used to it) I'll continue the service, but if the ads in any way interfere with the usability of the device, I think I'm done.
And that, at the end of the day, would be a good thing. It's too easy to forget that TV is a toy, not a necessity.
I wish they'd give my $2 back and take it from some willing ESPN subscriber. It really irks me as a broadband Internet fan that part of my bill is paying for the continuation of pointless sporting events.
If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
If the network goes under because people don't watch their ads . . . tough tootie. I'd be happy to pay for the one to three shows I watch every week, and if the vast sea of reality TV, sports, gameshows, and soap operas sinks beneath the waves it will only be good for the country and the world. Many of these so-called "actors," "writers," and other "talent" should be competing as baristas and shoe-store clerks anyway.
As for getting a life, I can't think of much of a crusade to get people to watch commericals so the poor networks can make their nut. I mean, UNICEF can always use some help. Wouldn't your leverage be more helpful there?
What if you got MythTV working well on an X Box? Then you'd have a Tivo replacement that's about the same price as a Tivo, but (obviously) with all the advantages of open source.
Linux already boots on XBox, so isn't it possible to make MythTV work? Am I the first to think of this?
I, for one, welcome our new Antichrist overlord.