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Linux 'Awfully Cathedral-Like' - Java's a Bazaar
jg21 writes "LinuxWorld draws attention to a curious use of ESR's The Cathedral and the Bazaar by the Sun Microsystems exec who currently talks about Linux more than he does even about Java. Apparently Sun's President and COO Jonathan Schwartz said at a press briefing last week that Java with its JCP is more like ESR's Bazaar than Linux, which he dismissed as being "awfully cathedral-like" since Linus is the final arbiter (or Great Dictator), and not a committee." But be sure you don't mis-use the word Java in this Bazaar or the Mall Police will totally get you.
Windows is awfully cathedral like, because what Bill or Balmer says goes, and that's the only version of windows I'm ever likely to see.
Linux on the other hand, I can muck around in the code myself however I like. I can include other people's patches that Linus *does not* approve, or I can even change it myself (though between you and me, don't expect it to do a damn thing other than crash).
How is that cathedral like?
And how is java superior in any significant way?
Presumably this refers to the kernel itself and not the horde (hoard?) of packages and applications that sit around it.
"Linux" as most people understand the term is the 2-5 CDs full of software that makes a PC do interesting things.
And it's about as bazaar as it can be.
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when you manage to delegate more important stuff, contribution comes from greater people. status has weight.
I don't think that the original idea of the "bazaar" development model was "everyone does whatever the hell they want". You need someone at the top of the tree to decide what stays and what goes. The fact that this is a person and not a number of people is just a coincidence of the way that Linux has emerged, and doesn't represent a large divergence from the bazaar model.
In short: Shut up Schwarz.
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Reason? If Linux users don't like the direction Linus decides to take, the code is there, and may be freely forked to provide a starting point for a new, different direction.
If Java(tm) users don't like the direction Java(tm) is taking... Tough. They're stuck with it.
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Hasn't it mostly been agreed that the successful OS projects are those where there is a lead developer who steers the project?
Frankly, I always hated the whole cathedral vs bazaar metaphor. I don't think it portrays well the virtues and faults of open source and proprietary software. I use proprietary software (MacOS + some closed apps) for the same reason I prefer to "dine out" rather than cook my own meals. I just want to choose something delicious from the restaurant's menu - and I don't care that my choices are limited. Yes, if you cook in your own kitchen, you can customize you meal the way you like it - as it is with open source software. But this will consume you a lot of time and effort, so most people would rather avoid it - unless they really enjoy cooking, have really to much spare time or are really short on cash. It's similar with Free Software - you use it if you really like to 'tinker' with everything or are really short on cash. But if you don't like the former and are not limited by latter, you will rather go to a store with proprietary solutions - where your choices are obviously limited, but you're saving time and effort. So I think restaurant vs kitchen is a better metaphor for proprietary vs free/open.
...a cathedral is delivering the Holy Scripture down on people. While Linux may have some of the same structure, it is instead producing it downwards up. Each kernel dev contributes something that, if considered worthy, will be included in the Linux source tree.
Linux is a cathedral only because people find it most effective. Why create conflict, just for the sake of having conflict? Nothing says Linux can't be "wrestled" from Linus' control, just like x.org took xfree, if he drives it in a direction people don't appriciate.
If anything, this tells me that Linux developers very much agree on where Linux is going, unlike KDE/Gnome/Third party WM discussions, dozens of various frameworks and whatnot you see elsewhere in the OSS world.
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Give me a cathedral over a bazaar any day. I can't think of a better situation than having a thoughtful, intelligent leader who considers all the input of the group and then makes moderate suggestions of what should be implemented. Linus is at the top because he's proven that he can make great decisions for such a large project. If he was ever to lose his naturally good judgement, he wouldn't be able to influence the multitudes of developers anyway. I count us as lucky to have him as long as he's willing to help.
The individual kernel project run by Linus might be cathedral-like, but Linux (and free software projects in general) are not. Actually, most free software projects, insofar as they retain an identity, are cathedral like: go to any random project on Sourceforge, and there's essentially no chance that you can commit changes to the codebase without approval from one of the project runners.
To analogize it to the proverbial bazaar, it's like noticing that each individual shop is run with an iron fist by its owner, and then claiming that the whole bazaar is a cathedral because each owner doesn't let his shop be run by any random Joe who comes along.
Yes, Linus manages his shop (project) with an iron fist, but anyone can take the kernel and set up their own shop (project) next door. That's still following the bazaar model.
Being both familiar with Linux and Java, let me propose a different analogy: Linux is like being caressed by milky-skinned maidens, and Java is like being kicked in the nuts by a Visigoth.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
I never have mod points when something *good* needs to be modded up.
"igb" is correct; in fact, some cathedrals have never been finished, even though they are quite useful and beautiful! Antonio Gaudi's La Sagrada Familia Cathedral in Barcelona is perhaps the perfect example of a fantastic structure that is taking centuries to construct!
ESR should really spend some time understanding the foundations of his metaphors before building his arguments.
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Schwartz is referring not so much to Linux the kernel, but Linux the OS that is installed in corporate computers - against which he actually competes. That means Red Hat, SuSE, and even other smaller distros, from MontaVista to JoesGarageLinux.com - Sun competes against Linux distros that have passed through Linus' compiler, because that's what corporations install. From that point of view, there is no bazaar, because Sun's corporate customers require the validation by Linus, backed up by each other's use/testing of it. The corporate cult of "me, too" is propped up by such crossreference. So Schwartz is disingenuous in his comparison, because the code Linus validates is collected from a widely distributed community, without Linus dictating priorities and policies. It's a cathedral erected inside a bazaar, with no doors in the doorways, and a loudspeaker preaching the gospel.
Personally, I don't like the idea that all of Linux depends on Linus. What if he gets hit by a bus (driven by a recently "retired" Microserf)? But the chaos ensuing from a disappearing Linus would resolve quickly, though possibly in a Great Schism with multiple inheriting popes across the Net, like *BSD. Time for a new paradigm to overextend, Jonathan.
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make install -not war
Linus' decision-making becomes the focus when there is a "tie" (for lack of a better word) between competing visions. And so what if it is? I know many people who run -ac kernels exclusively. And it's still Linux.
I live around 100 yard from Ripon Cathedral in England. It features every style of architecture from the 11th to 16th centuries, as it was extended and rebuilt in what was then the current style. The main tower has two rounded arches (north and west) and two pointed ones (east and south).
I believe it's the only catherdral in the UK to feature all such braches of architecture.
If Microsoft so wants to destroy Linux, why not hire a few dozen developers, create a fork of Linux that is incompatible with Linus' but includes more desireable (likely patented) features than Linus'? They could basically take control of Linux.
Which is it, guys? You can't have it both ways.
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The reason people get confused about the Cathedral and the Bazaar, and why Schwartz isn't the first to consider Linux pretty cathedral like, is that the way real cathedrals were generally built pretty closely followed ESR's "bazaar" metaphor, with thousands of just-ordinary-folks with a huge variety of skills popping in to do their part. The architect/builder (or builders, for many cathedrals took generations to reach their final form) had far less control over the implementation than Linus does.
Eric really needs to take a step or two back and ask if he really said what he thought he said.
As a linux-loving Sun employee, comments like this from my boss embarass me. A few years ago, I was proud to tell people that I worked for Sun. For the last couple of years, I have been less vocal about it and prefer to change the subject.
I think Java IS a great platform for object-oriented developement. I've recently had to go back and forth between Java and C++, and I always forget how nasty C++ is until I go back and try to use it.
In general, Java can provide a consistent and sane development environment through the VM abstraction, and the new generics and autoboxing now give the developer template-like constructs but without the bloat. The Java collections classes are much cleaner and more reusable than STL.
I think it comes down to if you are an OO-minded developer, than Java is a really great language. If you are procedural-minded, then C or any of these scripting languages are probably more your speed. Nothing worse than writing procedural Java. Except killing babies. That is worse.
-If
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