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SteamWatch Offers Forum for Displeased Customers

Posted by Zonk on from the letting-off-a-little dept.

paniq writes "SteamWatch has opened a forum to discuss the pros and cons of Valves online distribution software Steam 'due to constant deletion of complaint threads in the official Steam forum', as the site states. Installation of Steam to play Valves newest cutting edge shooter Half-Life 2 is mandatory, but forum members criticize Valve for meager Support, violation of consumer rights and formulate alternative ideas for Steams implementation. A 'Steam Watch' news section covers articles and rants about Steam found on the net."

29 of 171 comments (clear)

  1. Consumer rights... by elmegil · · Score: 3, Insightful
    violation of consumer rights

    Last time I checked, nobody was holding a SPAS-12 to your head and forcing you to buy the product. Get your money back, don't play the game, and quit yer fucking whining.

    --
    7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    1. Re:Consumer rights... by fireduck · · Score: 2, Informative

      the consumer rights violation complaint was about the original HL and how Steam was forced on the individual after the fact when WON went down. 5 years is a bit too long to return the game. As for the merit of the complaint, unless these people are lawyers, why should we give them the time of day? put up or shut up --- file a damn lawsuit and quit whinging on the 'net.

    2. Re:Consumer rights... by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If you read the link, you'll see that the complaint was that the goods had already been bought, and Valve was imposing new terms and conditions for continued usage of a critical part of the game to people who'd bought the game and agreed to fairer terms and conditions in the past.

      Seems sleazy to me. If I were in the same boat, I'd try to get my money back. I may be likely to be unsuccessful, but I can make it time consuming and thus expensive for Valve in the process.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    3. Re:Consumer rights... by bersl2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, looking at the linked topic, I see that the writer argues that Valve has broken the terms of its EULA for the original Half-Life by converting it to use Steam. I'll bet that there's a clause in that EULA that gives Valve permission to modify the agreement whenever they want to.

      Furthermore, the writer talks of Valve not being liable for any hack of Steam that may infect anyone's computer. It hasn't dawned on the writer that it is standard practice to disclaim all liability.

      I agree with the parent, and I wish people would actually read these fscking things every once in a while, just to see what they're submitting to.

      This ought to teach them a lesson... for about a month tops.

      Note to parent: If you've opened the game, you ain't getting your money back.

      (i need sleep)

    4. Re:Consumer rights... by Marc_Hawke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Since when was a lawsuit the FIRST option? And what makes you think some 15 year old kid could file one?

      No, really, the first thing you do is express your complaints to the company. When the company starts silencing those complaints (terrible move there) you move to an outside channel. (Which is what this story is about.)

      Once you've gotten a critical mass of like-minded people, you use a class-action lawsuit if the company hasn't addressed your concerns yet.

      --
      --Welcome to the Realm of the Hawke--
    5. Re:Consumer rights... by Khuffie · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Except it forced people with the original Half-Life to install Steam in order to play the game and counter-strike.

      How the heck are those people gonna get their money back? When they bought Half-Life Steam didn't exist.

    6. Re:Consumer rights... by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Last time I checked, nobody was holding a SPAS-12 to your head and forcing you to buy the product. Get your money back, don't play the game, and quit yer fucking whining."

      Translation: "I'm enjoying the game and don't want to hear people legitimately badmouthing it."

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    7. Re:Consumer rights... by Cecil · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just because they're a bunch of pissed off kids who are annoyed about Steam just like you are, does that somehow invalidate their complaints or even their feelings?

      Interesting side note to ponder: The ranting kids got their message up on Slashdot, while your complaint to Valve was probably just dumped in the trash. Shouting and whining can sometimes actually get things changed. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

      --
      Random and weird software I've written.
    8. Re:Consumer rights... by elmegil · · Score: 2, Insightful
      What I don't get is what "customer rights" they're talking about.

      Let's go back to "TFA". You buy HL1 and play it. No Steam required to play the single user game, which is what is being sold in the box. No Steam required to play the online game, which you get along with it. Eventually, after many years, Valve says "we are upgrading to a new platform, Steam, with a new EULA, and by the way we're phasing out the old online servers that let you find other games to connect to." Nowhere in the original EULA did it say the WON servers would be available forever. Not accepting the Steam EULA means not being able to use the new servers to find online games, but nothing stops you from agreeing on servers to play on with your friends, and connecting to and playing on those servers. Nothing stops you from playing the single-user version of the game to your heart's content.

      WHAT RIGHTS HAVE BEEN VIOLATED?

      Obviously to anyone who doesn't think the world is supposed to be given to them free on a silver platter, NONE.

      So let's extrapolate a bit. You hear about HL2, you want to play. It's clear if you pay any attention to the press, that Steam is required. Complaints aplenty fly around the net about how "intrusive" and "big brother like" it is. Anyone with half a brain can read reviews, look at chat boards etc. and hear the flap being raised about this.

      Do you assert that there's some RIGHT to be able to play the game on YOUR terms, regardless of the creator's intentions? Bullshit. If you don't like the licensing terms of HL2 and Steam, don't play. It's that simple. Valve will lose money (or not) based on whether or not their terms are acceptable to most people. End of story. There are no consumer rights being violated, unless you think you have a right to dictate all terms, which flys directly in the face of all legal precedent in this arena. Vote with your pocketbook and quit whining already!

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    9. Re:Consumer rights... by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "Try not to put words in my mouth, moron. There's no "right to screw stupid people" and anything you're reading into what I say along those lines is your problem not mine."

      I don't think so. You're basically saying it's okay for Valve to put anything they want into the EULA, and then change it on a whim. If that's not what your line of thought is, then you need to do a little more to spell out your point. I'm not accepting responsibility for being a 'moron' when you're not even addressing the actual complaints people have about Valve's business practices.

      "The fact remains, that it is up to YOU to know WHAT YOU ARE BUYING."

      Really?

      "Valve may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion. As a Subscriber, you agree that Valve may amend the terms of this Agreement."


      The user knows what they're buying? Bullshit. Tell that to customers of the original game who suddenly found themselves with a new agreement. "This deal's getting worse all the time."

      "If you voluntarily give up your rights by agreeing to a coercive EULA, then you have no one to blame but yourself."

      So no consequences for a company with a shitty EULA? No reason to complain? No reason to tell Valve they shouldn't do business like that? Right.

      "Bitching afterwords is like an 18 year old voting for Bush and then whining about being sent to Iraq in a draft."

      Actually, he'd have every right to complain. Bush did not make a campaign promise back in 2000 that he was going to take the country to war. As much as I hated the actions of the protestors during that time, I don't think that "shutting up and dealing with the unintended consquences of their actions" would have been right on the simple grounds that Bush needed to know what people felt. This is true in Valve's case, too. People want a game. People don't like EULA. People voice complaints about the EULA. Expressing demand is 'whining'? Grow up.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    10. Re:Consumer rights... by topgun601 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      your right, i spoke with my money, my rights were not vilolated. how? i did not buy HL2.

      --
      This post brought to you by: the marketing division of The Sirus Cybernetics Corporation
    11. Re:Consumer rights... by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Show me one commercial EULA that doesn't have that clause."

      Here you go, smart ass. Have fun reading through ALL of that. The closest they come to saying they can change the agreement is when you upgrade the software, you're agreeing to the new EULA.

      "Show me who said you HAVE TO BUY THE PRODUCT if you don't like EULA's."

      Show me why somebody doesn't have the right to complain that a EULA on a high-demand product. Sucks. Come to think of it, show me where somebody said they were forced to buy the game to begin with.

      "Yep. They're buying "whatever Valve says they want"."

      So, they still don't know what they're getting. They don't have a right to complain about that? Uh huh.

      Sorry bud, I don't buy it. One shouldn't need a legal degree to buy something as simple as a game. To argue otherwise is moronic.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
  2. Online publishing - it's anyone's game now by Japong · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This isn't all that surprising. Steam distribution was at first heralded as a way of getting away from the "big evil publishers" and creating an alternative for developers. But it still has to administer the accounts, and in the end its still run by a corporation whose end goal is to make the most amount of money possible. If anything, having an even further distancing between licensing a product and actually owning it can make potential abuses against the customers even worse.

    And for all those "they're not forcing you to buy it" people out there, of course they aren't, but if they'd remove the mandatory Stean registration I probably would have given them my $50 by now.

    1. Re:Online publishing - it's anyone's game now by Poseidon88 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      So what does valve do? They keep prices exactly the same (*more* expensive for me in canada).

      They can't lower the price because they are still under a publishing contract with Vivendi Universal (who bought out Sierra). If they lowered the price over Steam, it would hurt retail sales.

      shitcanning 20000 accounts, a good number of which have already given them money.

      Interesting. Exactly what was the number of paying customers that had their accounts cancelled? I didn't see that mentioned anywhere. I've seen a few posts on the Steam boards, but it's hard to filter through all the posts saying "I only tried the pirated version to decide if I wanted to buy it! Now I can't play Counter-Strike! Waaaaaaaa!"

      I know that valve is doing pretty well for themselves, and they likely would be if there was no copy protection on the game at all, let alone some overzelous "phone home" system.

      If 20,000 people trying to use a pirated copy of the game isn't an indication that anti-piracy measures are needed, I don't know what is. The fact that Steam is actually pretty effective seems to be the main reason people are up in arms about it.

  3. Re:Valve Wins Summary Judgment Motions in Copyrigh by Kithraya · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Not only am I disappointed in CS-Source, but I actually think it's worse than the first Counter Strike. At least the first one had decent hit collision, and didn't provide feedback (ie, blood splatter) until the server said it was okay. With CS:S it's possible to believe you're hitting an opponent, but when you check the console after dying the server never registered a single hit. I've never been more disappointed in a multiplayer game. I made a mistake in paying for HL2 early so I could get CS:S. Now I'm disappointed with both games. Oh well, I'll mark this up to a $60 lesson.

  4. Not all it seems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Don't be fooled, this website's open letter hides the fact that it is more dedicated to "people who haven't bought the game". -- ??? WTF is that?

    In other words, Steam gets in the way of pirating HL2 and they're pissed.

    Fuck you, buy it.

    They say it's for all those with grievances, but I highly suspect this is the nearly the same as a certain site promoting hacked UT/UT2004 servers (which believes that people who don't buy the game have a right to play online too...).

    For the record, few if any threads have been deleted on the Steam forums and the ones that have were complicated by people posting links to material that falls outside the forum T.O.S. and rules. I post there regularly and overall they are very leniant.

    1. Re:Not all it seems... by Night+Goat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agreed. The open letter is a laugh. "We're not pirates, we're future customers!" Oh, you plan on buying the product later? Oh, OK, in that case go ahead and play it now. That just doesn't make sense. I've pirated software in the past, and I had no delusions of being in the right. I knew it was wrong, I was stealing plain and simple.

    2. Re:Not all it seems... by KeeperS · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "In other words, Steam gets in the way of pirating HL2 and they're pissed."

      This mantra is often repeated on Slashdot and it doesn't align with reality. Steam is doing absolutely nothing to piracy. Pirates are getting cracked versions of the game. Why should they care about Steam? Their cracked single player game doesn't need it! As for multiplayer, CD keys were already working fine, so it's not as if Steam is making any inroads there. Maybe a couple pirates will have to spend 5 seconds downloading the crack, but other than that I doubt they care at all.

      Legitimate users, on the other hand, have been inconvenienced by Steam. If I don't want to have a Steam account, why should I be forced to get one to install a single player game? Should I be required to get a Microsoft Passport in order to install Office? It's not difficult to imagine a future where every developer requires you to get an account with them in order to play their single player game. Is this really a step forward?

      I can't speak for these Steam Watch people, but make no mistake, there are some people who haven't bought HL2 all or in part because of Steam. I'm one of them. And no, I haven't pirated it either.

    3. Re:Not all it seems... by Ed_Moyse · · Score: 2, Informative

      Do you have anything to back up your statement that "Steam is doing absolutely nothing to piracy"? Because it doesn't seem that everyone else agrees with you link.

      Quote from that article: "Valve is taking really effective steps against people using illegitimate copies of Half-Life 2 "

      I don't own a PC powerful enough for HL2, and so it doesn't really affect me, but surely each time a game goes online for multiplayer sessions, it identifies itself? In which case, Valve can do all sorts of checks.

  5. Wow by Poseidon88 · · Score: 4, Funny
    42 forum members. Vive la revolucion!!!

  6. Not impressed so far... by eviltypeguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not terribly impressed with all the "poor victims" so far that have posted on the forums.

    Most of them are people that tried to use an illegtimate CD key or cracks, then bought the game when they couldn't get that to work, or felt guilty enough and bought it, and then got shut out of the game.

    Gee, screw someone over, then try to play nice and they don't react nicely to you? Never saw that coming...

    About the only legitimate post (obviously IMO) I've read there so far covers some of the interesting legal entanglements that come from Valve's EULA for Steam. Personally, I hope EULAs are abolished, or if not, that they would come back in a much simpler form.

    I think it's absolutely ridiculous to expect anyone but a lawyer to have to read through and understand the pages and pages of legal drek that come with each new game. How can anyone in their right minds expect a person who isn't an expert in contract law to fully understand and comprehend all their rights with a EULA. Nevermind the questionable legality of EULAs to begin with. Of course one might argue that an expert in contract law already knows that EULAs can't be legally binding since they don't fulfill many of the basic qualifications of a legal contract, but since IANAL I digress...

  7. Just don't buy it argument by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I've seen the "if you don't like it, speak with your money" argument on here a few times, and have often made a similar argument in the past.

    However, I think one of the reasons this forum is a good thing is because Valve has screwed up royally. Many of their once happy customers are pissed. By letting them know, and letting other businesses know, we have an effect on the way things will turn out, however minor it may be.

    This frankly, is a good alternative to just not buying the game. Because if you don't buy the game, they have no reason of knowing you decided not to buy it because of Steam. They might just assume you didn't like the game.

    Which leads me to my next point. Instead of just not buying it, if you want to do something more effective, buy it and immediately return it, and be CRYSTAL CLEAR when you explain why to the person that it is because you are unhappy with Valve's choice in requiring Steam for this and you do not find it a satisfactory product. State this clearly and loudly.

    I know its wishful thinking, but at least you can DO something instead of just getting angry.

    --
    Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
    1. Re:Just don't buy it argument by Shihar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Pesronally, I couldn't be happier with Steam. I got my game quickly and have been playing it non-stop. I switched computers, loaded up HL2 on it without having to bother to find my CD key or even the CD. I personally hope that more video game companies switch to this method. The fact that a company that I like is making an extra pile of cash just pleases me more. Hopefully they will crank out a few more worthwhile games with that money.

      Maybe there are people who could do without Steam and would like an alternative, but there are plenty of people that are pleased as piss about Steam. Geek nitpicking aside, Steam dumped an awesome game onto my desktop and is sparing me from having to keep track of a CD. It hasn't presented a single problem for me personally so far. I couldn't be happier. My only wish is that Valve would hurry up and offer their other games on Steam.

  8. Re:It's not about Steam. by Propagandhi · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If the software is indeed totally unusable or any kind of serious hindrance, then it won't last. Sure, games like HL 2 and Doom 4 will sucker gamers into buying them regardless of the distribution methods used, but games that aren't sequels to classics won't have this luxury.

    Ultimately, the consumer will decide whether these systems fail or succeed, and because of this Developers (or Publishers) will have to ensure that the consumer is satisfied with their online distribution (or, as you put it, Steam-esque system). Besides, this isn't exactly a cheap system to implement. Valve spends loads of cash on bandwidth for Steam, and many titles simply can't afford the kind of infrastructure this kind of system requires.

    In the end I don't think these systems will impede my enjoyment of games, and if it does get out of hand.. well.. Agh, time to play pirate!

    Oh, and it won't take some bug-ridden piece of spyware to keep me away from DNF :P

  9. In case the site goes down... by Fedallah · · Score: 5, Funny

    In case the forums site goes down, I found a mirror here....

  10. Re:It depends... by Grand · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Your fine with installing HL2 which takes up several GB's on your HD, but you have a problem with installing a 600 Kb program?

  11. Alternative Opinion on Steam. by JavaLord · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I like steam. I bought HL condition zero just for the CS:Source beta. I didn't mind just paying for the Beta, because I figured I had gotten my moneys worth x 10 out of HL1 with the CS mod.

    I wasn't going to buy HL2, but a friend called me up one night last week and said he had HL2 and wanted to start playing CS:Source. I went onto steam and bought HL2 so I could play online with him. The nice thing is since I was in the Beta it was preloaded on my computer already. It took me about 10 minutes to be up and playing, where as if I could only buy the game in the store it would have had to wait until the next day never mind dealing with the sub-humans that work at my local best buy, or the fan-boiz at the local gameshop.

    I think steam is a great delivery system for games.

  12. I know no one believes this but... by slaker · · Score: 3, Informative

    There are still people in the world using modems.
    Those people - particularly the ones who can't manage 33.6k - are pretty much fucked with a knife if they bought Halflife 2 with some expectation of being able to play the game from the crap that's in the box.

    That's a VERY legitimate complaint about Steam. Last year - I couldn't get broadband before October 2003 - I tried to play Counterstrike over ~44k and I was absolutely outraged that the only thing out of that box that was useful was the serial number. If I installed the game that was in the box I didn't have a way to connect up-to-date to CS servers. In order to download the updates I either had to let steam run for days to download the required updates, or download a lump installer from a registration-only game site. Steam literally locked me out of a game that I owned.

    Objection to steam is NOT just about pirates wanting to pirate. I own multiple copies of HL2 (ATI coupons) and I won't install it unless I can install the *SINGLE PLAYER GAME* without all the steam bullshit.

    --
    -- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
  13. Steam: Valve's Gaseous Emission by Paraplex · · Score: 2, Informative

    I can't say much for petty complaints claiming that 'when a thief returns the goods to pay for them, he ceases to be a thief', but steam does offer some very real problems which should be addressed by valve with priority.

    For example, right now i'm typing in slashdot because the HL2 SDK is "updating" with no evidence of progress...
    Meanwhile, i'm unable to *play* HL2, let alone download the HL2 update while playing a different game (CS Source or Codename Gordon for example) because valve have decided to set us back 20 years to the days before multi-tasking.
    "Cannot Run Game. You currently have another game in progress, please quit this first"

    Last time I checked, waiting for a massive *questionmark* sized download over ADSL wasn't much of a game... but what do I know?

    Not to mention the conflict of interest brought up by the posting of ads on steam update pages when coupled with the potential(?) for product usage and market information harvesting.

    If I was commercially developing a mod for HL2 and I was physically unable to access the SDK or HL2 until it had finished updating, I would be furious... as it is, I think i might take a nap :)

    'plex

    --
    Rich Gentlemen Hide - The Existential Comic