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HIV Vaccine

The Sexecutioner writes "WebMD is reporting on a new vaccine which has had an incredible effect in clinical trials. The vaccine, composed of human dendrites holding dead HIV viruses, has dropped test patients' viral load by up to 90% in one year. Could this be it?"

30 of 848 comments (clear)

  1. Mixed feeling by fembots · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While I am glad that we may have found the cure to HIV that kills millions every year, I wonder if the vaccine will be affordable to those unfortunate ones?

    I got a feeling that only those wealthy people can afford to get fixed up, but most of them caught HIV due to their irresponsible action. Yet innocent victims who caught the disease, for instance by birth, may never see the light.

    It seems like most medical findings are "open-source", that you can read about them in journals, but the actual cost to produce a medicine is usually very prohibitive.

    1. Re:Mixed feeling by Skyshadow · · Score: 4, Insightful
      First, I think it's way too early to think this is a cure for HIV.

      Aside from that, when you RTFA you'll see that this isn't a regular drug, it's more of a therapy -- as I understand it, you use cells from the patient's own body and basically train them to combat the HIV virus. Unless you can create a generic version that would work across populations, it's not as simple as just shipping a bunch of shots off to the third world like we were able to do with polio.

      As for "open source" drugs: You should realize it isn't that simple. It costs a lot of money to find, test and approve new drugs. While I'd agree that our current system enriches the drug companies at the expense of the little people (among a myriad of other problems), it's really important not to assume you can think of the industry like you do computing.

      --
      Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
    2. Re:Mixed feeling by YU+Nicks+NE+Way · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sorry, but that just isn't true. The truth is that identical drugs, made on identical lines, cost more in the US than they do in Canada. Why? Simple: the prices in Canada are negotiated by customers who have the time to study the actual costs of production, and who aren't desperately begging for the treatment right now. The result is drug prices which are genuinely negotiated between producer and consumer, rather that prices set by a producer with no feedback from a market.

      That is to say, the lower prices in Canada are due to exactly what most opponents of socialized medicine claim to support: a working market with multiple, informed customers.

    3. Re:Mixed feeling by flossie · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The only victims of HIV are those who got an infected blood transfusion by "mistake".

      So you don't class babies born to HIV+ mothers as innocent?

    4. Re:Mixed feeling by Eric+S.+Smith · · Score: 4, Insightful
      (it was too stressful with the thread of aids)

      News from the future: incidence of all other STDs skyrockets.

      Sigh.

    5. Re:Mixed feeling by topham · · Score: 3, Insightful


      Patent laws in Canada and the United States are different, and as such the length of time the patent is valid may mean that a drug currently covered by a patent in the US would not be covered in Canada.

      But that has absolutely NOTHING to do with why drugs are cheaper in Canada. Name Brand drugs are cheaper in Canada. In many cases by as much as 80%.

      The Canadian government negotiates the rates for a number of drugs. They make a commitment to purchase a large quantity and the drug company agrees to the price.

      By the way, you might want to check out drug prices around the world. Nowhere in the world does anyone pay the kind of prices that exist in the United States.

      Counterfeit drugs, according to the FDA, is any drug supplied from any source which does not have EXACTLY the same packaging and EXACTLY the same markings on the drug as have been registered with the FDA. This is Regardless of whether the drug is from the same production line, but put into a different style of packaging by the same manufacturer.

      A company can simply provide the Canadian government with different style packaging and then, when imported back into the United States it will be considered a counterfeit drug.

      You may not like the socialist aspect to Canadian healthcare, but quality of the drugs is not an issue.

    6. Re:Mixed feeling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      most of them caught HIV due to their irresponsible action

      Begging your pardon, sir, but I have HIV and I didn't get it through irresponsible action. I received the virus through an unfaithful wife, with whom I believed I was in a monogamous, long-term (10+ years) relationship.

      I realize that your sheltered existence makes it easy for you to dismiss the majority of the millions who suffer from HIV as irresponsible, but I'm here to tell you, it's not always so, nor do I find that most cases (at least that I know of through the support groups) are caused by irresponsibility.

      Just think about this before you dismiss "most" of HIV sufferers. I did not engage in dangerous activities. I was not an intravenous drug user. I did not engage in homosexual sex. I didn't apply medical care to an HIV patient without appropriate protection.

      I had sex with my long-term partner. And now I'm left to die, knowing that I never stepped beyond what was "safe".

      HIV is a terrible disease, and it can affect anyone. Chalking a majority of infections to irresponsibility is facile and dangerous. Nobody is safe from this terrible, terrible disease.

    7. Re:Mixed feeling by Rei · · Score: 3, Insightful

      True. Before this goes into the market, I would expect that it would have to be made into a "kit" that either you or your doctor could use relatively easily. I have no clue how you'd go about doing that, though...

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    8. Re:Mixed feeling by pjt33 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Two people have already poked holes in your claim, but I'll add a third hole by pointing out that a woman who contracts HIV from her husband after he acquires it from another woman is certainly a victim.

    9. Re:Mixed feeling by cindy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The article you link to doesn't even mention Canada, Canadian laws, or the Canadian drug market. How exactly does this support your argument?

      It's a FUD piece supporting drug patents. I liked this quote...
      Patent pirates, however, want to steal even more of a drug company's property. Their justification is the need for "humanitarian" aid. They offer the notion that it is unethical for companies such as GlaxoSmithKline, Roche and Pfizer to put their patents and profits above the suffering of those in Africa and other needy places who are afflicted with HIV, malaria, tuberculosis and other treatable diseases.

    10. Re:Mixed feeling by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's more general than that. Because we have middlemen (insurance companies) that sit between us and those paid to provide our health care, the cost of said care has been successfully divorced from our ability to pay. How much do you think your local mechanic would charge if your car insurance company paid the bill?

      Everyone talks about Canada's "socialized medicine" being so different in principle than the United States', but really, when you think about it, that's exactly what an insurance company is supposed to be! It's a socialist concept from the beginning. Few can pay the actual cost of significant health care, so everyone pays into the kitty, and those in need take out. Not so different, in principle. The problem is the people in charge of that kitty. Note that both the middlemen and the health care providers in this country are profiteers, and that applies as much to state-run programs such as Medicare and Medicaid as it does to private organizations. The drug companies are one of the most public examples of medical profiteering, but there are many, many more. Actual health care is no longer the primary focus of the United States medical system. Like so much else in this country, the prime function of the medical system is to transfer wealth from one group to another (much smaller) group. Which is great, I suppose, if you're part of the latter group. I'm not, so I don't like it.

      You would think that insurance companies would try to find ways to keep costs down by putting pressure on medical suppliers. But they don't. They don't have to. They simply keep their rates as high as the market will bear (and beyond) and then do their level best to disqualify anyone they can from actually receiving any care. And that was before HMOs came on the scene. The result has been yet another group of murderous corporations that are so flush with money, and complicit in the deaths of so many people, that they almost make the tobacco companies look angelic.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    11. Re:Mixed feeling by Various+Assortments · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Generic drugs in the USA are almost as cheap as the generics in Canada. It's just that Americans don't trust generics, as they see them as inferior.

      The generics in Canada are only produced after the patent expires, ie, 20 years. I don't know where you got the ridiculous idea that Canada doesn't respect US patents, but it's utterly ridiculous and ignorant. Next you'll be claiming Canadian drugs are unclean and manufactured with lacking production controls. Another myth perpetuated by the US pharmaceutical companies who see Canada undercutting their costs and stealing their mojo.

    12. Re:Mixed feeling by Jaysyn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And then you still get shit like Fen-Phen & Vioxx.

      Jaysyn

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    13. Re:Mixed feeling by Sj0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Eli Lilly and Co., the maker of Prozac, the most proscribed anti-depression drug on the market, has earned 10,213.6 Million USD in the past 9 months. The cost of those sales was 2,358.2 Million USD. Research and Development cost 1,975.6 Million USD.

      Marketing and adminstrative cost 3,186.0 Million USD.

      In other words, you're absolutely right. Other companies would probably show the same result.

      Source

      --
      It's been a long time.
    14. Re:Mixed feeling by jadavis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think our philosophies are very different, but your observation is very true. Insurance companies ARE very similar to socialism.

      The problem is that medical insurance became widespread when companies started offering health plans in lieu of pay.

      Everyone has some basic levels of medical costs: vaccinations, pediatrician visits for their children, eye care, dental care, occasional medical situations (perhaps a broken bone or infection), etc. If you buy insurance against something that everyone knows will happen to you, then the only result is that the insurance company wins big time, just like Las Vegas: they know the numbers and they know that they will win.

      What you buy insurance against are the high costs that you probably won't suffer, but would create a hardship if you did. These include tragic accidents that are rare but require hundreds of thousands of dollars to fix, or bizarre diseases or something.

      What we have is a situation where basic medical needs are being covered by insurance, which means the customer is always losing (just like if you spend enough time at the blackjack table).

      The only thing that makes sense is to drop the insurance policy that you lose out on, and get a cheaper policy that only covers the big stuff. Then pay the little stuff yourself.

      Then you also benefit because your premiums aren't covering the costs of high-risk lifestyles of other people. The insurance companies can't discriminate and charge those people more, sometimes because the law won't let them (i.e. they can't charge more to gay people) and sometimes because they don't know (druggies or something).

      --
      Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
    15. Re:Mixed feeling by stienman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I realize that your sheltered existence makes it easy for you to dismiss the majority of the millions who suffer from HIV as irresponsible, but I'm here to tell you, it's not always so, nor do I find that most cases (at least that I know of through the support groups) are caused by irresponsibility.

      If you assume that all heterosexual contact infections were 'responsible', and then add in blood transfusions, coagulation disorders and other 'responsible' actions, then you still end up accounting for under 20% of infections in the US.

      HIV/AIDS is terrible, and I certianly don't want to discount the lives that are affected by it.

      However, claiming that the majority of infections, at least in the US, are not preventable is far more dangerous than saying that "Chalking a majority of infections to irresponsibility is facile and dangerous."

      The caveat 'at least in the US' applies because in other countries, especially the African nations, the culture of male dominance actually speeds the infection. A large percentage of those infected perhaps did not have the opportunity to act responsibly.

      I understand how to protect my computer from virus and other attacks, and therefore I have not had an infection on any of my computers for over a decade.

      I understand how to protect myself from sexually and body fluid transmitted diseases, and therefore I am not HIV/AIDS positive.

      I don't claim that I am immune - far from it - but my chances are greatly reduced. Perhaps equal to your chances prior to your infection.

      I claim that if everyone chose to avoid placing themselves in risky situations, whether it be visiting a warez site and catching a virus, or getting drunk at a party and sleeping with a stranger, then the incidence would be drastically reduced. If this was the case, then efforts could go into protecting 'innocent' sufferers of the disease who got it not by risky behavior, but through other's risky behavior.

      What the parent is pointing out is that you are not only a minority being part of the 2% of Americans suffering with this disease, you are also a minority within the disease, being one of the few who got it without engaging in risky behavior.

      I hope for a simple, cheap treatment and eventual cure for this virus and the disease that generally follows. Until then, I hope that people act responsibly - that is our current best, and only, effective defense.

      I cannot possibly understand what you are going through, but I wish you the best of luck.

      -Adam

  2. reducing viral load is a far cry from a cure folks by spacerodent · · Score: 3, Insightful

    THe real question is does its effect at combating the virus continue and improve? Dropping the viral load count dosn't mean much if it only works once and or dosn't ever wipe it out. Besides this sounds more like a treatment (which is more profitable) than a vaccine (which is what you get so you never get aids)

  3. Welcome to capitalism by violet16 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, it's a trade-off: we want private companies to invest billions of dollars to develop medicines we need, but they'll only do so if there's the potential for profit. If there isn't, capital will flow out of drug companies's R&D budgets and into car manufacturers or something.

    Governments that want to make a new life-saving drug available to all, not just those who can afford it, are free to subsidize it. Citizens and governments in wealthy countries who want to make the drugs available to citizens of poor countries can likewise fund it.

    It's easy to paint a company as horrible because it wants to charge a lot of money for a life-saving new treatment. But in many cases that treatment wouldn't exist if the company couldn't make money from it.

    1. Re:Welcome to capitalism by flossie · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Well, it's a trade-off: we want private companies to invest billions of dollars to develop medicines we need.

      The dependence on the private sector is the real problem here. Of course, pharmaceutical companies spend a lot of money on R&D and expect to make it back with the lucrative successes. However, this is not necessarily the best solution for society as a whole. Particularly in countries with a national health service funded by general taxation, paying lots of money to drugs companies is not an efficient use of resources. Directing the same money to universities to perform the research would ensure development of the same life-saving drugs while also ensuring that the drugs can be made available to all who need them.

    2. Re:Welcome to capitalism by DogDude · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No offense to university people, but universities are horribly inefficient places for real world type of work. Businesses are designed around efficiency. Ever heard "those who can't, teach"? It's true. Academia is good for theoretical work, but not for actually getting something done. Academics don't have any real incentive, and in jobs that are driven by tenure and seniority, you're inevitably going to have lots and lots of inefficiency.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    3. Re:Welcome to capitalism by Maniakes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      on average drug companies spend 2.5 times as much on advertising as they do on R&D

      Part of the advertising spending is dead weight, but not all of it. Advertising does have the effect of making potential customers aware that there are drugs that treat their conditions. How much benefit does a drug do if nobody knows about it? Before you say the doctors will tell their patients, remember that drug companies telling doctors about their drugs is still advertising, and remember that not everyone goes to a doctor over every ailment, especially if they mistakenly think there is no treatment.

      1/3 of the drugs being marketted by the major manufacturers were discovered by universities or small biotech firms

      Then I take it 2/3 of drugs being marketed by the major manufacturers were developed internally. And how did the manufacturers get the IP rights from the small biotech firms? If they bought the rights or pay royalties, then they are paying for the research that went into the drug plus the firm's profit. I doubt all small biotech firms are as dumb as the NIH was with Taxol.

      Most drugs that the drug industry itself develops are what she calls "me-too" drugs

      "Me-too" drugs limit the ability to abuse the limited monopoly by acting as competitors. That's a Good Thing. Or should everyone still be using Mosaic because all other browsers developed are "me-too" software?

      They need not be more effective than current formulations in order to be able to be sold - just more effective than a placebo.

      If a drug doesn't provide benefits in effeciveness, side effects, interactions, or price, most doctors won't prescribe it. Doctors do have easy access to reference material on all these factors, and part of what they're paid for is to know how to evaluate which drug is best for which patients.

      The top 10 pharmaceutical companies make more money than the rest of the Fortune 500 combined.

      Good. How much is a few more years of life worth to you? Or not being impotent? Or relief from chronic pain? And if it's not worth to you what people are paying, switch to an insurance plan that doesn't cover prescription drugs and opt out of the whole affair.

      And not only are they granted a limited monopoly, but they often cheat.

      This part is genuinely lame. IP law need fixing to limit these kinds of abuses.

      --
      A legparnasom tele van angolnaval.
  4. Re:I Hope not. by riotstarter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you're really that concerned about over-population please kill yourself now. You'll be helping your own cause.

  5. Practical Explanation? by katharsis83 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let's apply Occam's Razor here.

    On one hand, we can claim that the West created a virus designed to kill Africans, but yet still somehow manages to kill millions in North America/Europe; not particularly effective from a genocide point of view.

    Another, perhaps more practical point of view, is that sex education and safe-sex practices are far less common in Africa. The lack of knowledge about STD's and the absence of the rule of law in many parts of Africa would make a far more effective explanation.

    If we take Ms. Maathai's explanation, then food must obviously also be a genetically engineered weapon, since millions more in Africa die from starvation than those in the West.

  6. Re:Wait, a vaccine? by grunt547 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Seriously, curing HIV is just dealing with a symptom of a problem. If the groups that promote AIDS and STD education in Africa could get just a tiny portion of the funding that goes into HIV medical research, the spread of AIDS would run into a wall. In South Africa, they have billboards that say things like "You can catch AIDS by having sex with an infected woman." Americans think, well, no kidding, but very few people have bothered to tell the South Africans that. AIDS is a problem that has to be attacked on all fronts.

  7. Forget about it by FiReaNGeL · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Great idea : it may be of use for patient with resistance to all known anti-retrovirals. But...

    It is NOT a vaccine. It is NOT a cure. It's a temporary (at best) treatment. The title is highly misleading. And its far from practical. You need to isolate dendritic cells from an (infected) patient, which is costly, require specific equipment and isn't trivial (forget developing countries, which can't even afford AZT). Then you pulse these cells with killed HIV, which I assume should come from the patient (else soon the treatment will go ineffective due to mutations acquired by the virus) and you reinject the cells, which will go 'alert' the immune system that something is wrong. So mass scale treatment is out of question. Basically, you're only boosting the (ineffective) immune system against HIV-1. After a year, their treatment reduced viral load by 90% in 8 of 18 patients. 90% isn't a lot (anti-retroviral do a lot better than that), and they aren't even achieving 50% success after a year. I would imagine that after 2 or 3 years, the success rate is even lower. And the CD4 count is stable, not increasing to normal levels.

    So no, its not 'it'. Don't hold your breath either.

  8. Not quite. by raehl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What is in the vaccine is not important. The difference between a treatment and a vaccine is that the treatment attacks and kills the pathogen, or just alleviates symptoms. A vaccine acts like the pathogen, causing an immune response that attacks and kills the pathogen, or a cellular response that stops the pathogen from being destructive.

    Vaccines do not have to be made from live or dead specimens of the pathogen - they can also be made of specimens of a similar pathogen (smallpox vaccine is made from cowpox, for example), or anything that mimics a critical part of the pathogen closely enough to trigger an immune/cellular response.

    People tend to think the difference is that vaccines PREVENT disease and treatments treat disease only because most people get vaccines before they have a chance to be exposed to a disease. If you somehow ended up with Polio or Smallpox or whatever, they'd still give you a vaccination to get your body to take care of it (and that's what they did back when they first created the vaccines).

  9. Re:Mmmm! by Combuchan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Erm. The same company that devloped Vioxx also devloped Ivermectin (Mectizan), a highly effective treatment plan (once every 12 months) for River blindness, a dehabilitating disease that affects people who can't afford modern medicine. Despite Merck dumping about $290 million into developing the treatment, they give it away for free.

    Before you attack Merck with pitchforks and torches in hand, you ought to realise that this company has an unprecedented history of philanthropy, and it saddens me to know that somebody at that company with their eyes in profit instead of the Right Thing screwed up so royally with the debacle we know today as Vioxx.

    Whatever happens with that company, I hope that at least some of their positive ideological foundations are continuted.

    --sean

    --
    "[T]he single essential element on which all discoveries will be dependent is human freedom." -- Barry Goldwater
  10. Education is definitely not stressed enough. by WebCowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The development of an AIDS vaccine is wonderful news for sure, but it is still not a cure at this point (it is only a treatment that keeps the disease at bay at this point). What's at least as important (if not more) is education as you have pointed out.

    The problem is getting the third world (where the epidemic is most serious) to accept western medicine. Westerners think African-witch-doctor medicine is a bunch of bunk--well Africans have the same opinion of much of western medicine. Even if this vaccine WAS a cure, getting poor, illiterate Africans to accept treatment would require a lot of education and convincing (not to mention money that most of these victims do not have).

    The most perverse myth in some African cultures is that STDs (including AIDS) can be cured in men by having unprotected sex with a virgin girl. I shudder when I think about how many HIV+ men there are in Africa who think they are cured because they have done this, but in fact may have infected some young woman and the child she might have conceived as a result--then in the mistaken belief that they are cure go on to infect other sexual partners. Somehow putting that myth to rest would do more to combat AIDS than the most expensive drugs currently available.

    There is even a problem in the "educated" west too--it is that we are perhaps TOO educated (but in the wrong way). All this emphasis on advanced treatments for AIDS is making some people perceive the disease as no longer a death sentance but rather a chronic disease. The attitude when engaging in risky behaviour is becoming "Uh oh...I might have exposed myself to HIV...oh well, nowadays HIV is treatable like hepatitis and herpes--it would be a pain in the ass to have to treat it but I'll live alright anyways".

    The homosexual communities of large metropolitan areas are already having to combat this attitude (having previosuly become the most educated/aware segment of society concerning AIDS) and if we aren't careful the rest of the public will start believing this too. In actual fact, even if a person could live a normal lifespan with HIV, delivering a vaccine cusomised for each recipient and treating symptoms with an expensive regimen of drugs would be another big burden on the healthcare system, not to mention that the quality of life would be permanently reduced even with todays treatments.

    Yes, this is an important development, but without education and empasis on personal responsibility AIDS won't go the way of smallpox any time soon.

  11. Re:this is from brazil & france, NOT USA pharm by lukesl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The reason this work is coming out of Brazil is the same reason the spinal cord story earlier this week came out of Korea. Namely, ethics. The single greatest hindrance to scientific advancement in the US. In the US, it would be unethical to conduct this study, because you couldn't let a group of people go without HIV meds for a year. That would be unethical. It's the same way it's unethical to test experimental therapies on patients with terminal cancer. Since their disease is terminal, it can be argued that they are consenting out of desperation, and the researcher is therefore taking advantage of them.

    In any case, dendritic cells were discovered in the US, HIV was discovered in the US, etc., so it can't be argued that the giant money machine of US science didn't contribute. It also can't be argued that the US does not lead the world in biomedical science. This is because we spend so much money on it that the best scientists from all over the world are concentrated here. However, I agree with you that this is not the same as the idiotic statement that we are subsidizing other nations' healthcare.

  12. Re:"Could this be it?" NO. by nfotxn · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "I suspect now society may have to accept the inevitable and stop people from having multiple sexual partners. I fear the possiblity that HIV could mutate into something that can infect even without sexual contact in the meantime."
    Your comment was interesting and well researched up until this point. Much of the HIV research done in high risk groups of individuals has revealed that polyamoury is very much a part of our human animal. The discovery of heterosexually identifying MSM's (men who have sex with men) is a particular point of interest. These men often covertly have sex with other men but are otherwise heterosexualy identifying. Most importantly is that these men consider themselves heterosexual and monogamous. They aren't "fags with aids", at least in their minds.

    The idea of "enforcing" monogamy is a pretty chilly concept. Much of the AIDS epidemic in the developed world has it's roots in this societal stigma of it being the sexual deviant's disease. A virus kills indiscriminantly. As a culture we should choose to continue developing our responsible sexual civil liberties. It's only with openess and education that we will control this disease in the present. State enforcement of behaviour is socially retroactive and inconsequential. The choice to make love with whom we please is not a crime. It's a modern responsibiliy that we choose to take.
    --

    _nfotxn