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Prelude to the PSP Launch

Posted by Zonk on from the she'll-be-comin-round-the-mountain-when-she-comes dept.

Josh writes "Because the Japanese Launch is quickly coming upon us, we at PsiNext decided to put together an editorial which talks about the important events in getting to the final product release for the PSP. It is a good chance for those who are just getting into the PSP to catch up on what has been happening for the past 18 months." From the article: "The dream of a portable gaming unit began many years ago for Sony, around the time Sony Computer Entertainment (SCE) was preparing to release the PS2 to the world. Work began in 1998 under the codename "E.T." and it was to be Sony's first stab at the portable gaming market to try and take down the then industry leading Nintendo with their GameBoy."

43 of 73 comments (clear)

  1. Uh... by Firehawke · · Score: 2, Informative

    Can you say "utterly worthless article"? This goes into only moderate detail on the good points and COMPLETELY skips the bad points! (battery life, anyone?)

    This is HARDLY the kind of article that should be reccomended to someone who hasn't heard of the PSP-- this is fanboy press, pure and simple.

    1. Re:Uh... by Fred+Or+Alive · · Score: 1

      Yep, it's a typical article linked to on Slashdot. The editors have an amazing skill for picking articles from (sub) High School level[1] writers on fan-sites.

      But I wish people would keep on guessing the battery life on a product not even out yet. Now that the price isn't the astronomical price predicted, people keep on going on about the batteries instead.

      The batteries do look problematic, but I think the developers will've know that, and will probably be writing there software so it doesn't drain the battery fast.

      ===

      But then again I'm getting the impression that most of the people who post on Slashdot Games are Nintendo fanboys, which is proved by pulling figures out of my arse that show that most Slashdotters are Americans who were kids when Nintendo were 0wnzering the US game market (I'm a touch younger, and from the UK, and nobody will dare besmirch my Sega Mega Drive!) :-)

      ===

      Although I fear I'm sortof turning into a PSP-fanboy... It just seems so cool... :-)

      (Then again everyone's a fanboy about something, with the possible exception of chartered accountants).

      ===

      [1] That's 13-16 year olds in the UK (if, like me you live / grew up in the few areas with First/Middle/High schools instead of Primary/Secondary).

      --
      10 PRINT "LOOK AROUND YOU ";
      20 GOTO 10
    2. Re:Uh... by Rew190 · · Score: 1

      You might have a valid point if it weren't for the fact that this clearly isn't a review.

  2. E.T.? by HoneyBunchesOfGoats · · Score: 1

    Does the PSP have the ability to phone home?

    Or perhaps the engineers' have low expectations for its success, like a previous E.T. in the videogame industry?

  3. Very smart of them... by Sheetrock · · Score: 1
    To throttle the release of the product. If it's any good this is only bound to increase demand, the platform gets more time to garner support and gain titles from game publishers, production costs will go down over time and with a relatively small first run they won't risk losing the sale of a ton of units in warehouses should production-related defects turn up.

    Does anybody know if this super storage disc format will be housed in some type of protective cartridge? I hope they don't look like Gamecube discs, because portable stuff should be built for durability on the road.

    --

    Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
    -- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.




    1. Re:Very smart of them... by SetupWeasel · · Score: 1

      It is not smart. If the whole point is to increase demand, there has to be a way for those who demand to be supplied. You want the product to be scarce not unattainable.

      If the demand is so great, why isn't Sony increasing production? The DS is going to have 1.5-2 million more users than the PSP by years end, and that advantage may only be because Nintendo made more units. So where is the benefit of this demand?

    2. Re:Very smart of them... by Sheetrock · · Score: 1
      I listed more points than simply increasing demand, but the product is hardly unattainable. The first run as announced is almost certainly below demand, but what if they produce more than they announced on the first run (or do a 'second run' of a million as the first are coming off the line)? Regardless, you've got people grabbing them off the rack because they think it's the last one the store's going to stock for a month, or doing pre-orders online to try to get it in their hands as soon as it's available.

      The only reason we've heard of Tickle-Me Elmo is because of the strategy of building demand through scarcity, and if I've learned anything about watching Slashdot reactions to new Warcraft games it's that gamers only stay pissed until the next time they see something shiny.

      --

      Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
      -- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.




    3. Re:Very smart of them... by Fred+Or+Alive · · Score: 1

      >

      From looking at pictures (pictures of UMDs first appeared alongside pics of the early flat-buttoned PSP prototype, and pics of actual (or mockup) game discs have appeared), UMDs look a bit like more rounded MiniDiscs, they have a protective case as part of the disc, so they should be reasonably durable. Although I'd hope they come in some sort of outer case (like MiniDiscs) to help protect them a bit more when not in use.

      --
      10 PRINT "LOOK AROUND YOU ";
      20 GOTO 10
    4. Re:Very smart of them... by SetupWeasel · · Score: 1

      Here is an article about the PSP's launch "stragety."

      I think keeping the people who sell your product in the dark is a commendable innovation that will revolutionize the gaming industry. Many retailers cannot take preorders, because they are not sure how many systems they are going to get.

      Besides, my point is that this demand has to give you some sort of advantage to be useful. What advantage is Sony going to get by creating this demand?

      Nintendo has more DSs sold in Japan today than there will be PSPs in existance by the end of the year. Nintendo has 2 million DS pre-orders in Japan, and they had them a month before its release. They are making DSs as fast as they can, and there will STILL be a shortage and hype to get one. Their hype will translate into 1.5-2 million more DS users than PSP users by the end of the year.

      How does this make the PSP more attractive to game publishers?

      It doesn't. Hype is nothing without sales to back it up, and Sony doesn't feel they need to cater to anyone when they launch the PSP.

      And you forget, after Christmas the "Tickle-Me Elmo" hype died. Those that didn't have one were much less likely to want one. The hype doesn't last.

    5. Re:Very smart of them... by suyashs · · Score: 1

      UMD SUCKS! Its basically a MiniDisc and I respect and love the technology but MiniDiscs had a full protective cover and a sliding cover which was opened only inside the machine. UMD is a cheaper version with a permanent open slit in the case! It's just asking for dust etc. to pile up in itself! Whoever came up with the idea of a partially open covered disc needs to be fired! At least with an open disc you could clean the dust if there was any, with the UMD, its that much harder to get rid of dust that has already made its way in and hard to keep dust out in the first place (unless you carry it in its case, which is as big as a PS2/DVD cover.) Bad move on Sony's part.

      --
      http://chrono.posterous.com/
  4. PS 3 being a powerPC machine ? by johnjones · · Score: 1

    Personally I can't belive this

    all their consoles have been MIPS based even the PSP
    Methinks that IBM is the FAB...
    IBM rock at this very few other fabs have SOI and 90nm working as nice and they are looking at 60nm and 45nm real hard apperntly

    has somone got arch specs and not just the normal Cell patents ?

    regards

    John Jones

    1. Re:PS 3 being a powerPC machine ? by GrendelWraith · · Score: 1

      The xBox Next and the next Nintendo Console releases have already been stated to be multicore PowerPC based.

      The PS3 is using the new cell processor as noted in many articles here recently and in the past.

      However as there is some similarity in processor desings. The Cell has been desgined to be a processor that is able to take adavantge of other cell processors connected to it through various means.

      --
      One good thing about music... when it hits you, you feel no pain. So hit me with music. -Bob Marley
  5. ET? by Khuffie · · Score: 1
    I've never heard of this ET thing. Sources? Info? At least a link to a respectable gaming site that has something about it?

    Sony will begin to produce over 700,000 units a month, with a year 2005 ending total of 10 million PSPs worldwide. Those are numbers that Nintendo has never faced before and could spell the downfall of a once great portable gaming empire at the hands of the PSP.

    I like this part. Nintendo has never faced large numbers before? Wow, what about the PS2? And the GBA's install base is far larger than what the PSP will have in produced units at the end of 2005...

    1. Re:ET? by UWC · · Score: 1

      I think the PSX mentioned there was something they tried last year or early this year in Japan, integrating something like PVR functionality and some other added features to the existing PS2 functionality. I never heard much about it after release, and now I guess I know why.

      Also, didn't Nintendo mention production limitations just before the DS was released, and admitted that they could deliver "only" 2 million units by Christmas? A launch of only 200,000 units seems ludicrously small. I'd like it if this decision turned out to be some sort of postmodernist performance art playing off of business and consumer trends of late.

      --
      Honor Among Slackers. A veri
    2. Re:ET? by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      The reasons you never heard anything about it again was that the price was insanely high, most people who wanted a ps2 and dvr had one already(now it would be nice to have it all in one box, but not $700 nice), and Sony over-promised on features that didn't make the initial release(though they later released software updaters for it). I was in Japan when they released it. They had huge ads in a lot of the busy train stations, and a lot of people were looking at it in the electronics stores, but very few actually seemed interested. There were much cheaper dvr solutions. Sony just kind of swept it under the rug after they realised how poorly it was doing.

      --
      Monstar L
    3. Re:ET? by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

      Actually I was in the Sony building in Japan and they were really pushing the PSX it had tonnes of functions but it was about $1200 bucks.

      People navigated around the beautiful menu's then left never to return.

      Considering how hard sony was pushing it and how little demand there was for it I'm not surprised that it was a big loss.

      The PSP does need to strech it's wings before we'll know if it as amazing as it could be, I just want a damn webrowser/Skype machine gimme gimme gimme!

  6. Paid Slashdot Posts by StingRayGun · · Score: 2

    Nobody wants to hear it but this HAS to be a paid slashdot post.

    Most media (specially print magazines) is really just outsourced PR. It was really only a matter of time before Slash did the same.

    1. Re:Paid Slashdot Posts by swat_r2 · · Score: 1

      I don't know. I mean it's an okay theory, but most of us on Slashdot are quick to stomp on any technology. Yeah, we're like that old guy sitting on the porch yelling at the kids going by. But with technology.

  7. They started lightyears ago on this... by 88NoSoup4U88 · · Score: 1
    "The dream of a portable gaming unit began many years ago for Sony, around the time Sony Computer Entertainment (SCE) was preparing to release the PS2 to the world. Work began in 1998 under the codename "E.T." and it was to be Sony's first stab at the portable gaming market to try and take down the then industry leading Nintendo with their GameBoy."

    And about two weeks ago they started working on the batteries...

  8. Codename ET?! by Zangief · · Score: 1

    That will surely bring good memories to the old gamers! It will bring a lot of luck!
    --
    Wiki de Ciencia Ficcion y Fantasia

    1. Re:Codename ET?! by hal2814 · · Score: 1

      You mean this ET?

  9. Re:Codename ET? by Fred+Or+Alive · · Score: 1

    If you'd read the article, youd've found out that the Sony ET was the doomed non-SCE handheld that another bit of Sony tried to make a couple of years ago, not the PSP. But it really was a rather bad name to pick for a games project, at least if you're superstitious. If only theyd've picked another codename, we could've had the over PSP three years ago.;-)

    And the DS isn't universally loved, I'm in the universe, and I think it sounds a bit gimmicky (and also looks a bit unwieldy). I'd stick to my GBA. The PSP sounds like a cooler gadget, apart from the battery / display issue. (I'm in the UK, not expecting either until Easter at the earliest).

    --
    10 PRINT "LOOK AROUND YOU ";
    20 GOTO 10
  10. Sony trying to break into games markets by pluke · · Score: 1

    Anyone else realise that today is the 10th anniversary of the launch of the Playstation?

    Computer and video games have a small article here . It'll be interesting to see how they compete with the DS as the last ten years have shown they are rather good at this. Personally speaking i wouldn't touch the PSP, the screen is begging for a good scratching and i seem to recall battery life (and size) where what killed the sega game gear. I still love Sonic 2 though.

    --
    "all through my house i set up traps, it seems like the rats have a map, so now i feed the rats crack" - Donald D
    1. Re:Sony trying to break into games markets by Headcase88 · · Score: 1

      I love the story of how the Playstation came to be. It was going to be a peripheral for the Super NES, but... if you keep reading the story, Nintendo gave up on it due to to costs, Sony wanted to revenge, and now it has most of the market share.

      And about the PSP, it's too much like a console to be portable. Why watch FMV clips on a handheld? I want a simple game and this is too fancy. The DSs capabilities are just right IMO, though I'm not keen to two screens (and that ryhmes).

      Battery life is 4-6 hours for games... not good.

      --
      "When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
    2. Re:Sony trying to break into games markets by SetupWeasel · · Score: 1

      Here is Sony Computer Entertainment's Ken Kutaragi has to say about this "4-6 hours."

      So if you don't want to play graphically intensive games or play wirelessly or set set the volume and brightness too high, you are almost sure to get the promised 4-6 hours.

      When has Sony lied about a product's features before?

    3. Re:Sony trying to break into games markets by unclethursday · · Score: 1
      When has Sony lied about a product's features before?

      Sony claimed the PS2 could render Toy Story in real time... never happened, never will happen. Sony also promised and promised 1 million units for the North American launch of the PS2, delivered half of that in a successful attempt to get people wanting it even more-- and didn't say a damn word about the shortage until, what, a week before release? Sony also promised the PS2 hard drive would be used for lots and lots of stuff, like new levels in games, downloadable music files, downloadable movie files, IMs, game saves, and that it would be out very quickly after the release of the PS2.

      3 years before the hard drive was released is very quickly, and 3 games that support it is tons of uses? And except for the games that support it (SOCOM II, FFXI, Resident Evil: Outbreak), no games can do anything with it, including saving games. Where's the downloadable music? Where's the downloadable movies? Oh, yeah, they aren't here.

      At E3 this year they were talking about a larger memory card instead of what the hard drive could do or be used for.

      Sony claimed the PSX (PS2/DVR combo unit) would play MP3 files; claimed it would write DVDs at 24X; claimed the PSX would read CD-R media; claimed the PSX would support the DVD+RW format; claimed the PS2 would read TFF and GIF files; claimed that the PSX would support Sony's Cybershot digital cameras...

      Sony claimed this for months, especially while pre-orders for the PSX were rolling in... then 10 days before they released the PSX in Japan, they announced all these features were simply GONE from the PSX, except the burning, but it was reduced from 24X to 12X.

      Kurtaragi, himself, at E3 this year told us (yes, I was at the press conference) that the PSP would get 2.5 hours of battery life from playing movies, 6 hours from playing music, and battery life "comparable to other handhelds while playing games" (his own words)--which should be between 8-12 hours (GBA and GBA SP battery lives). Now Sony is saying that the PSP might get 4-6 hours of battery life from playing games. Strange how that's around half of what Sony promised at E3, eh?

      You're right. Sony has NEVER lied about a products features in the past, and they shure as hell wouldn't start now.

      Oh, wait, that was sarcasm you were typing, wasn't it? ;-P

    4. Re:Sony trying to break into games markets by SetupWeasel · · Score: 1

      Wait, why would Sony put it on an Ericsson Phone? Is Ericsson German for Sony?

      In comparing the Soviet and American space programs someone I can't recall said: "When we found that pens did not work in zero gravity, the US goverment spent millions of dollars to develop a pen that could. The Russians used pencils."

      That's a lot like this stupid screen cover thing. Even if Sony has Level 5 armor that is impurvious to American bullets, why use it when a low cost replacable system would work as well?

  11. Just what Developers wants by xenocide2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm sure developers are looking forward to breaking even if the PSP takes off. Seriously though, if you're gonna launch a portable, launch a portable. Don't try risk adverse techniques; they screw early adopters and the market share. Every PSP that could have been sold but wasn't is a loss, a customer that every game developer just missed a chance on. If I were a developer, I'd be either pissed or sceptical, depending on how committed my own company was to the PSP.

    UMD is relatively small, somewhat smaller than a gamecube disc. But I don't think its a brilliant move; I know that they're pushing the format as a portable, low-power media but nothing reads it, and given Sony's style, nobody but Sony ever will. I mean, do you plan on purchasing any movies released on the UMD format?

    --
    I Browse at +4 Flamebait

    Open Source Sysadmin

  12. Re:Lightyears AGO??? by UWC · · Score: 1

    Maybe there's some constant speed at which business is known to travel, and development time can be extrapolated from a distance measure.

    --
    Honor Among Slackers. A veri
  13. Umm... by Ghost429 · · Score: 1

    the then industry leading Nintendo

    How about try 'The then, now, and forever more industry leading Nintendo'

    --
    I already know i'm going to hell, now i'm just trying to get cable down there.
  14. PSP by EpsilonExordium · · Score: 1

    I really don't see the PSP succeeding beyond the realm of the tech savvy young adult who needs everything, and the curious spoiled child. Portable gaming is a completely different world.

    1. Re:PSP by swat_r2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree to a point. I mean there's absolutely no doubt the games look amazing. But the battery life issue and UMD movies are the kiss of death. It's almost emberassing how bad UMD movies are going to fail. I don't like to speculate much as anything can happen, but making people buy the DVD and UMD is insane. The only way I can see UMD succeeding is if the discs cost 1/4 of what a DVD costs, or they are given away for free in magazines, etc. Like promos.

  15. Re:GameBoy vs PSP by Pxtl · · Score: 1, Troll

    I think its a terrible tragedy that Nintendo has the console with the pointing device - Nintendo wouldn't know what to do with a pointing device if it was shoved up their ass, meanwhile Sony would have bought out Blizzard already by now if they had a good console for Diablo and StarCraft (which have been shitty on consoles up until now due to the lack of pointing devices).

    DS will be the better console, have an extensive library of utterly fascinating and innovative games that get boring after five minutes, and about 4 games worth playing long term. The PSP will have fourty thousand games, but a signal-to-noise ratio of 5%, and none of their games will be better than those top 4 Nintendo games - but they'll have an endless library of "pretty good" games to play the hell out of.

    In short - PSP = better games, DS = better console. Yeah, I'm calling it now.

  16. Heat issues... by dfj225 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I wonder, how is it that the PSP stays cool? It seems like it is very similar to the PS2, so wouldn't it require some kind of active cooling or at least a good passive system? To me it looks like there is no way for heat to escape the unit.

    --
    SIGFAULT
  17. Hardware Issues by theREALMcCoy · · Score: 1

    It cannot be denied that Sony is the behemoth of the gaming world, but why is it ignored that Sony hardware is plagued with bugs. Defective drives, compatibility issues, less than rugged design. These are issues that were common to the PS2 and will probably be multiplied on the PSP. The thing looks too delicate, and I agree that screen is beggin' for a scratch. Also, if that thing get dropped, look out screen and disc drive. While sony does lead the industry in anti-skip technology, we all know that it eventually wears out. I bought my game boy in 1989, it still works. I seriously doubt the same will hold true for a PSP in 2019.

    1. Re:Hardware Issues by swat_r2 · · Score: 1

      I agree to a point, I don't think Sony would release something that will be extremely easy to break. On the other hand, having a high speed spinning disc scorching in the back is a little more disconcerting than a simple SD card. Moving components always break first.

  18. Re:GameBoy vs PSP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "I think its a terrible tragedy that Nintendo has the console with the pointing device - Nintendo wouldn't know what to do with a pointing device if it was shoved up their ass, meanwhile Sony would have bought out Blizzard already by now if they had a good console for Diablo and StarCraft (which have been shitty on consoles up until now due to the lack of pointing devices)."

    Spoken like a magazine-grade pundit! Of course, that's not saying much, given the "Tiger Beat" state of games journalism. Or perhaps it's saying a lot.

    Anyhow, I think it's funny that you say that Nintendo, whose existing touch-screen control implementations in the form of the minigames in Super Mario 64 DS are brilliant, and who have had the good judgment to have Namco and Sega doing cool games for it (the upcoming Pac-Man game and the launch game Feel the Magic spring immediately to mind), have no clue what to do with the input device that they themselves implemented. You then go ahead to point out that Sony, by your understanding, would know better than to make such cool games available and would instead bring PC ports to portable gaming, resulting in a better portable product in your opinion. All this, based on what? Clie? Vaio laptop trackpads? What?

    "DS will be the better console, have an extensive library of utterly fascinating and innovative games that get boring after five minutes, and about 4 games worth playing long term. The PSP will have fourty thousand games, but a signal-to-noise ratio of 5%, and none of their games will be better than those top 4 Nintendo games - but they'll have an endless library of "pretty good" games to play the hell out of."

    You mistake Nintendo for Sega. It's Sega that does the highly-conceptual, heady games with limited appeal. (They often appeal to me, but that's beside the point.) Nintendo does "everyman" games, and very well at that. Those best-of-class Nintendo games you mention are often simple games, done to perfection. After all, what is the Zelda series at its core but a third-person hack & slash with RPG, platformer, and puzzle components to it? That puts it in the same genre as Landstalker, Soul Blazer, Alundra, and any number of 3D games. And yet....it's the game series plenty of console gamers would consider as the perfect game of its type. The others I specify, while all very good, don't really even come close.

    The PSP will have good third-party support, but, oh, what's this? The Nintendo DS third-party developer list is longer? Several key devs have announced DS games under current production but haven't even publically claimed PSP support at all yet? Not to be too cheeky, but both points kinda throw a wrench in the argument that the PSP is more lucrative in the development comparison.

  19. The article by SetupWeasel · · Score: 1

    Sorry, here is the article I meant to link in my last comment.

  20. Sony could be screwing themselves. by pikakilla · · Score: 1
    This is a very small number compared to the demand for this item, but with production costs rumored to be twice the asking price, Sony can't afford to let one PSP sit in inventory.

    If everything goes as planned, and the PSP has a successful launch, Sony will begin to produce over 700,000 units a month, with a year 2005 ending total of 10 million PSPs worldwide

    Ok! Lets do a little bit of math here
    10 million psp units...
    each costs $200...
    Cost to produce rumored to be twice as much as cost to produce...
    10,000,000 * 200(1) = $2,000,000,000

    (1) (twice $200 = $400; $400 - $200 = $200; $200 = net loss per psp)

    Im not a marketing genius, but losing two BILLION dollars for a product (not even including shipping costs to distributors, nor does this include the marketing costs that must be associated with the psp) is not chump change. Sony is putting a lot of trust in their psp, and I find it very risky espically when they have a history of underperforming and putting a lot of hype into their products.

  21. Re:GameBoy vs PSP by pikakilla · · Score: 1
    Sony's consoles always used the "zerg strategy". They have always pumped out more ass than any system. Sony has always been big on volume; whereas, Nintendo has always been on the side of quality. They few games that you can play for years and never get bored of.

    Id rather have 10 extremely innovative games that I will never get tired of than have 923810293 versions of Vroom Vroom Racing/Random XYZ RPG/Beat 'em Up Fighting Game.

  22. Re:GameBoy vs PSP by MilenCent · · Score: 1

    I think its a terrible tragedy that Nintendo has the console with the pointing device - Nintendo wouldn't know what to do with a pointing device if it was shoved up their ass,

    On the contrary, Nintendo is the company poised to do a pointing interface best. Because they have no ties to the computer gaming world, they're not as bound to the bland point-and-click paradigm.

    Besides... Metroid: First Hunt has what amounts to mouselook. That's cool. Then there's the new WarioWare in which all the games are stylus based, the Yoshi game where you draw platforms for the characters to walk across, and games that use the stylus for analog control (which strikes me as a bit half-assed, but it is a cool idea).

    meanwhile Sony would have bought out Blizzard already by now if they had a good console for Diablo and StarCraft (which have been shitty on consoles up until now due to the lack of pointing devices).

    If Sony bought Blizzard it would probably be the beginning the end for them. In the long run, it's extremely difficult for an owned studio to remain fresh and creative, due to pressures from On High. Nintendo's among the least bad in this regard, but even they recently drove away the creator of Kirby.

    I find it highly unlikely, in any case, that the PSP will have the better games, for the same reason that the PS2 doesn't, generally, have better games than the Gamecube. Sony's game strengths lie almost entire in Square (there are a good number who will buy Sony no matter what, so far as they have a lock on console Final Fantasy) and volume (release enough games from enough different people, and some of them are bound to be good).

  23. Sony v. Nintendo by Ganondorf+Dragmire · · Score: 1
    Very intresting indeed.

    Nintendo, Former 5x Heavyweight Champion of the Portable Gaming world, squares against Sony, in the most technologicaly advanced fight of the Millenia.

    Who when will win the heart of portable gamers around the world? Who will claim the covent title of champion in this no holds battle of buttons and screens?

    LETS GET READY TO...PLAY!!!!!

  24. Battery life by Tom398 · · Score: 1

    Whats the battery life on these anyways? These things must take a lot of juice from batteries. It would probably be a wise idea to invest in some good alkaline batteries and not skimp out with those cheap heavy duty ones is what I'm thinking. Anyone know for sure?