Photos and Commentary On AMD's PIC

vincecate writes "I just purchased a brand new AMD PIC which has been on Slashdot and LinuxDevices. I have opened it up and put some pictures and comments on the web. Some interesting things are that the system uses only 8 watts, the Windows CE does not want you installing any software, you can not get to the BIOS settings, and I was not able to boot Linux." (He was able, though, to boot Linux from an IDE device on a mini-ITX system also based on the Geode processor.)

Comments

Geez...

[k4_pacific]

"Windows CE does not want you installing any software, you can not get to the BIOS settings,"

It might as well not even have a keyboard or monitor port. Yeesh.

Re:Geez...

[NanoGator]

"It might as well not even have a keyboard or monitor port. Yeesh."

Didja read the bit about who the target audience is and what it does do?

Re:Geez...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not impressed with the interesting moderation here. Microsoft did not make this device. AMD built it to be as cheap as possible. It's laughable to think that somebody would be interested in buying a full on Windows machine after using CE. People making $6,000 a year aren't buying one of these machines because they're just not sure they want a real computer.

I could keep going, but now I'm drifting away from my point. "Microsoft is addictive", boy that's insightful. Afterall, we wouldn't want to bring up that Apple's not in this market or that nobody's trying to do the same thing with Linux. It's much more insightful to liken Microsoft to a controlled substance.

And the people here wonder why nobody takes them seriously when they bring up issues about MS. The sky is falllllliiing!

Re:Geez...

[harrkev]

Yup. And a poor person in another country would NEVER want to improve their education by installing a compiler in order to learn C++ or Java. And an electrical engineering student would never want to install SPICE. And I guess this means that there will be no educational software on these things. If you want an education, you have to get on-line. And this is the type of system marketed to people WITHOUT broadband. So this thing will tie up the phone line unless using strictly built-in apps. And I have heard that some areas have a per-minute internet charge.

Yes, the concept is cool. But if the system is completely locked down, then this is nothing more than a glorified internet appliance. And NONE of those survived very long. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between a computer and an internet appliance. A computer lets you install software. Let me illustrate:

Computer: "What do you want to do?"
Internet appliance: "I will tell you what you are allowed to do."

See the difference?

Don't get me wrong. This is still cool. Just not as cool as it could have been. But I must admit that AMD likely did this in order to prevent viruses, worms, and trojans - which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Re:Geez...

[somethinghollow]

It's funny when someone says they tried to install linux and it didn't work, they get chastised for trying. If he never mentioned Linux at all, there would be at least 5 users asking "Yes, but does it run Linux?" ;)

Re:Geez...

[dmaxwell]

What about a poor geek in such a country? I find this attitude of "It's an almost charity thing and you should be grateful for what we choose to give you." to be very condencending.

It will be perfectly natural for a few recipients of these things to gain skills and to try to find a way to get them to do other things. There is VERY little reason for these to be locked down to the extent that they are.

Re:Geez...

[Tassach]

It's supposed to be for charity

You fail basic reading comprehension. Put down the doobie and come out of your bleeding-heart fantasyland.

Did you RTFA, or did you just pull that out of your ass? The only subsidy mentioned in the article is a mention that THIRD PARTY companies can license the design from AMD and sell their own branded version at a subsidized price:

The chipmaker plans to go forward by essentially licensing the PIC design to local companies, including telecommunications or Internet service providers, allowing them to use local contract manufacturers and control distribution, marketing and pricing of their PICs. Thus the companies will sell PICs under their own brand names and be free to subsidize the machines' cost to lower the price consumers pay. AMD is targeting companies in Brazil, China, India, Mexico and Russia, initially.

AMD is making a profit on this, guaranteed. Maybe not a huge profit per unit, but there are BILLIONS of people in their target market. They'll make money selling Geode processors to the licensees, and they'll make money off of licensing fees. The licensees (telcos and ISPs) aren't doing it for charity, either: they're doing it to expand their market and get more paying customers.

Trivialising it by suggesting it's some sort of geek toy is just pathetic

What's pathetic is your lack of touch with reality. This isn't some noble utopian project to bring the Internet to the starving masses for free. This is one megacorporation marketing a device to other megacorporations to help those megacorporations make a profit off of poor people.

Getting Linux to run on this isn't just a Geek Toy. Doing so will empower ALL people to use a cheap (possibly subsidized) general-purpose computing device in ways other than their corporate masters want them to use it. The telcos and ISPs who will be licensing this want nice obediant consumers who'll buy the device, subscribe to their service, and use it to buy stuff from their advertisers & partners.

Boot problem

[spotteddog]

The problem booting from the CF card is probablly just a partition type or signature thing. It would be interesting to hook the hard drive from the PIC up to a working Linux box (as hdb or hdc) and poke around to see how it is partitioned. Maybe a block copy from the hard drive to the CF would create a booting CF based system. Granted it still would be running WinCE, but it would be a start.....

Re:Boot problem

[Anonymous Coward]

My bet is that the "BIOS" is just Windows CE with a bootloader, why bother add something made to run DOS when you can just kick it into the OS itself?
This is not made to be a PC-clone it is made to be low cost box that runs CE.

Re:PIC?

[Garabito]

or a PIC-like microcontroller made by AMD?

Re:Cryptographic BIOS?

[Lehk228]

sounds to me like the point is to provide some serious virus/trojen/spyware hardening for sale in an environment full of new users and poor availability of tech support.

Not meant to last

[rexguo]

I saw a Lithium CR232 battery in one of the photos. By making it hard to remove and voiding the warranty by opening it up, this thing is not meant to last for more than a couple of years for the regular Joe.

why called PIC?

[kcelery]

PIC seems to be a registered trademark of MICROCHIP, this is extracted from one of their web page:

About Microchip Technology

Microchip Technology Inc. (NASDAQ: MCHP) is a leading provider of microcontroller and analog semiconductors, providing low-risk product development, lower total system cost and faster time to market for thousands of diverse customer applications worldwide. Headquartered in Chandler, Arizona, Microchip offers outstanding technical support along with dependable delivery and quality. For more information, visit the Microchip website at www.microchip.com.
###
Note: The Microchip name and logo, PIC and MPLAB are registered trademarks of Microchip Technology Inc. in the USA and other countries. PICDEM is a registered trademark of Microchip Technology Inc. in the USA and other countries. I2C is a trademark of Philips Corporation. SPI is a trademark of Motorola. Windows is a registered trademark of Microsoft. All other trademarks mentioned herein are the property of their respective companies

Shouldn't they be able to make this cheaper?

[slusich]

$185 still seems like a pretty high price for something designed to provide access to the third world.
Seems like they should be able to design a cheaper unit for this.

Re:*Limited* Windows CE included!

[martin-k]

Strange. My PIC runs at 1024*768 and definitely allows me to run TextMaker, PlanMaker, Media Player, and Internet Explorer at the same time.

Sure you didn't confuse this with the crippled XP Microsoft is selling in Asia?

Re:how about a useful link...

[bandrzej]

same here...i am also interested in buying one since they are low power, fanless, and would make a good hardware/software hacking project :-)

Re:Cryptographic BIOS?

[anum]

I suspect that they (AMD) don't want you to think of this as a general purpose PC but rather more like an embedded internet device. In other words, it is designed to always run in kiosk mode. It may limit its funtionality but it should also limit problems like spyware and mainstream apps that need a lot more horsepower than this thing has.

Re:Reason why you can't fiddle with it

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I fully understand that reasoning. My question is, why not have the maker put a custom version of Linux on it and lock that down? I don't see the need to require the Microsoft tax on something that needs to be as inexpensive as possible, especially considering the target demographic.

Re:Put ReactOS on it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Win CE is open source to the OEM's

Open source doesn't just mean access to the source code.

Re:Reason why you can't fiddle with it

[anum]

What makes you think that Microsoft is "taxing" these boxes?
Microsoft (and just about every other large company in the world) is more than willing to SUBSIDISE projects like this for market penetration. I wouldn't be suprised to find out that MS has at least helped with design if not funding.
Remember, this box is intentionally limited. Consider it a teaser or loss leader. The first one is free...

Re:This would make a GREAT car computer

[dave420]

Why don't you just make a bong out of a kidney dialysis machine? Or play baseball with donor kidneys? These are boxes for poor people. They're not made for students in their expensive colleges to do "cool" projects. You are all concerned about your "Windows CE vs. Linux" choice, whereas the intended customers for this machine are more worried about feeding themselves and not getting shot at.

Re:Beginning reverse engineering

[rRaminrodt]

There's no stamp on it that says, "Poor People Only". Besides I'm quite confident that the company would be happy to make more. He's not robbing a charity, he's purchasing a product. It just happens to be aimed at low cost markets.

Just because I can afford an expensive product I should choose it over a cheaper one? That's not very resonable... especially since these folks are trying to satisfy their curiosity about a new piece of hardware.

Re:Paperweight.

[maxwell demon]

Please tell me, how is locking out Linux making the system cheaper?

Re:Reason why you can't fiddle with it

[morgue-ann]

those sub-Saharan Africans will be ready to shell out the big bucks

But when the kids (which are the gross majority of the population in many developing countries) grow up and specify computers for business & government, the seed will have been planted. The market for high-margin products in target countries might be small now, but it has huge potential for growth. Developed countries have most of the computers they need & only replace them every few years.

Think long term....

Re:Paperweight.

[sleepingsquirrel]

It's for poor people who can't afford to get online.

<Flame=on> Since when is free software not for poor people?!? Maybe free speech isn't for the poor either. Why should poor people live in the Microsoft-only ghetto? How could limiting software choice possibly add value to those devices? Your moaning sounds like the indignant soup kitchen owner who is upset because the poor won't eat your rancid swill, prefering to feed it to their hogs!<Flame=off>

Re:This would make a GREAT car computer

[ParnBR]

Friend, I appreciate the sentiment. But I live in a so-called third world country and not every "intended customers" here are worried about feeding themselves and not getting shot at. In fact, a big part of this country is really poor, but not that violent. So, please, don't generalize, ok? :)

"Take a step back and shut the fuck up for a sec."

[Didion Sprague]

What about a poor geek in such a country?

This brings up a couple interesting points, none of which are really worth pursuing. But I'm surprised (or maybe not surprised) to see that most Slashdotters posting about this and what it can and can't do have remarkable tunnel-vision.

This isn't meant to be a "geek" machine. This isn't for a "poor geek" (who, I'm sure, if he or she was worth his or her geekiness, would find other, better machines to receive geek training from). It's a *tool* -- much in the same way that a hammer or a pair of pliers are tools.

In fact, you sound like a bunch of carpenters complaining that no one is gonna use a $4 hammer from Home Depot when what they really need is a $49.95 double-balanced claw hammer with an oxide tip to "properly sink nails."

Yeah, that's nice, but when I need a hammer -- I need a hammer. I could care less about the size of the claw or the oxide tip.

I realize most folks here are in college and high school and aren't yet capable (this is gonna sound condescending, but it's true) doing what my old comp sci professor called "taking a step back and shutting the fuck up for a second."

(This is the same guy who urged us all to read Shakespeare in order to understand that what's really at the core of computer science is humanity -- not silicon. At the time we laughed. Now, twenty years later, I've come to understand he's exactly right.)

Anyway. I digress. And I condescend. But, really. the windows/linux stuff is necessary sometimes, funny other times, but in this case, it completely misses the point. What no one is mentioning is the cultural *reason* for such a low-cost box -- and how (and why) the internet has become (oddly?) indispensible -- even for those "poor folks" in the sticks.

That's pretty amazing, actually. And it seems to be the most significant part of this story.

Re:Beginning reverse engineering

[anagama]

Jeez Dave420 - smoke a bowl.

• Monday was the first day the PIC was available in Anguilla and I bought the first one ...The PIC is a very low power system ... This is like 100 watts less than some other machines we have. At island electric rates this should save more than $200 each year, if the machine is on all the time.

Quit repeating yourself - we all know it is your opinion that this device is only for 3d world people and that you think that 3d world residents are too unsophisticated to use technology (support issue responses). Also, you believe people shouldn't put linux on this because that somehow hurts the 3d world users. Well, if you RTFA, you would note that the author lives in a 3d world country. It appears that 3d world residents have a good reason to put linux on the AMDPIC and make it a useful device. The electricity savings alone would make this machine almost pay for itself (it was about $250 after shipping/duty charges for the author of the original article). Apparently, even people in the 3d world would find it useful to able to use the AMDPIC as a computer.

So chill out - we all heard your opinion. Your point is made. Some of us disagree and repeating it ad nauseum is not going to change our minds.

This thing is the future of computers

[Garak]

This thing really is the future of computers. I know alot of geeks don't really want hear that.

There really isn't any need for a large HD, 3d video, fast processor, upgradablity, etc... in an office PC or even a home PC. Something like this little box is all you need. Legacy free, simple, cheap, etc...

The only software an office PC really needs is a webbroswer and all the applications can be webbased. This kind of goes back to the mainframe style computing of the 70's. Current broswers are not really suited for this but you get the idea.

Once standards get alittle more defined there will be no need to upgrade a computer. Things are already leveling off in proformance. Its just the big companys trying to maintain upgrade cycles to keep the revenue streams going thats fueling faster processors.

A PC for the people will just be a small box like this with a few USB ports, maybe USB 3.0 will become the standard. With a simple standardized interface so that no 3rd party drivers will be needed. No internal HD. Lots of ram, OS in rom, most apps will be internet based. This requires alot of future looking standards to be put in place.

If so someone wants todo video editing, the video editing software will run right on the camcorder, they just plug the camcorder into the usb port and go. No need for the video files ever to see the PC. The DVD burner will be built right into the camcorder, this will be pushed by the copyright lobbist. Same goes for music...

If someone wants to Play games they buy a console or play webbased games(kinda like flash games but with 3D maybe). The game console may not connect to the TV, it may just plug into a USB port.

All these changes are going to be fueled by a few things.
1) Copyright, PC's with HD's and burners make media copying to easy.
2) People want simpler computers, the adverage person dosn't want to have to worry about upgrading or installing software or drivers. People want true plug and play. For this to work we need strict standards.
3) Security - If you can't install any software than worms and virus can't install them selfs basicly. Its the only real solution to todays virus/worm/spyware problems.
4) Price - people want cheaper PC's, by removing the drives and other moving parts PC's become cheaper and last longer.

The only place left for us geeks will be on high priced servers where all the web/net based applications are done.

Re:This thing is the future of computers

[Garak]

Alittle more to add to this rant...

The PC could basicly just become an ethernet switch that connects the display, input devices(keyboard and mouse), speakers(with built in DAC and amp), and other media devices together. You just login to your ISP's 'mainframe' and your desktop is basicly just a trusted webpage from which you could use a webbroswer to browse to untrusted sites. You should beable to login to the trusted 'mainframe' from any computer anywhere in the world and have all your desktop settings, etc... Once logged in, the trusted 'mainframe' would probe your local network and provide links to your hardware and setup stuff like audio feeds to your speakers. The connection between your hardware and the ISP's mainframe would be only permitted while your logged in.

Ofcourse all this is going to require fiber to the home or atleast to the neighborhood and copper from there. Lots of bandwidth will be needed for realtime loss less audio and video.

This is the only way really to ensure security. Sure we lose the ablity to run our own OS, save media locally, etc... But we gain the abillity to have our documents, media and settings go where ever we do. You will beable to walk up to any computer and instantly have all your custom settings. Ofcourse it all has to have end to end encryption.

All this is quite a few years off yet, maybe google will get things started with their OS.