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Formula One Racing Just a Matter of Crunching the Numbers

Si24601 writes "Sauber Petronas Formula 1 team have launched Albert, their new supercomputer. With aerodynamics contributing a claimed 75% of the performance of the current bread of cars, Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) calculations have become increasingly important. Dalco's 530 AMD Opteron processor, 2.3 Tflop/s Supercomputer, with 1 TB RAM and 11 TB of storage, may just be up to the task." Other readers submitted links to stories on F1 Live and Formula1.com.

33 of 377 comments (clear)

  1. bread by convolvatron · · Score: 2, Funny

    and without high performance bread, you may as well
    not enter the race

    1. Re:bread by dbIII · · Score: 2, Informative
      and without high performance bread, you may as well not enter the race
      Strangely enough, there was a story in the "Yakitaki! Japan" Manga about a contest to bake the ultimate sports bread for Formula 1 drivers. (www.snoopycool.com for those interested). Yes, it's as silly as it sounds - a baking manga with elements borrowed from survivor, the LOTR movie and all kinds of places.
  2. "bread of cars" by Neil+Blender · · Score: 2, Funny

    mmmmmmmmmmm....car bread, tastiest of all breads.

  3. Wow by qw0ntum · · Score: 2, Funny

    Need for Speed 1000000 right there.

    --
    'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
  4. Bread of cars by MacDork · · Score: 4, Funny
    With aerodynamics contributing a claimed 75% of the performance of the current bread of cars

    The other 25% being due to lightweight wheat products apparently ;-)

    1. Re:Bread of cars by AlexeiMachine · · Score: 2, Funny

      The competition is toast!

  5. Don't forget the drivers, too. by mOoZik · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sure, technology is important in that sport, but don't discount the importance of world-class drivers like Schumacher, et al.

    1. Re:Don't forget the drivers, too. by mOoZik · · Score: 2, Informative

      Schumacher wouldn't be the world's best paid athlete if he didn't contribute whatever amount of importance to the process of winning. Consistently.

    2. Re:Don't forget the drivers, too. by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you put Schumacher in a perfect two-year old car and the rest of the field in current cars, I doubt he'd manage a win a single race. The cars improve enough each season that you must have both the car and the driver. Just the driver alone will not win races. It would be able to showcase what you can do with the old technology, getting you sponsors able to afford the new tech, but not win.

    3. Re:Don't forget the drivers, too. by flewp · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, but within a second doesn't mean much. Lets see how long it takes him to make up that extra second, and not only that, but do it consistantly over the course of an entire season.

      --
      WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
    4. Re:Don't forget the drivers, too. by swiftstream · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course, when given identical cars to race in, Schumacher loses.

      Yeah, he may be world class. But other drivers are, too. There's a lot to be said about the cars.

      --
      Be a PATRIOT--because the only thing we have to fear is the lack thereof.
  6. Still a sport? by Octagon+Most · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I imagine that at some time we will approach the level of technological sophistication where we no longer call some competitive event a sport. That is to say, at some point the human element will contribute a trivial amount to the overall performance. I am not saying that F1 racing is at or near that point - I have tremendous respect for the athletes that drive those cars under extreme conditions. But imagine a technologically advanced version of something like dogsledding, where the human is along for the ride. Do we continue to call it a sport? Or does it become some other type of contest?

    1. Re:Still a sport? by hairykrishna · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hell yes. Robot wars is a sport! No, wait, what was the question? Seriously I think it's still a sport at the level you talk about. Only difference is that the competitors are the engineers rather than drivers.

      --
      "Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
    2. Re:Still a sport? by flewp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, take this into consideration: F1 drivers must endure extreme G-loads over the course of a race weekend and also off season testing. They can routinely pull ~4 gs. F1 requires EXTREMELY fit drivers. Many of them have workout regimes just as intense as any other "regular" athlete. Not only must they put up with the g-force beatings, they also require absolutely phenomonal hand-eye coordination, and must have amazing reflexes.

      So tell me, since when does a sport that requires stamina, extremely fine tuned hand-eye cooridination, and amazing reflexes not involve athletes?

      --
      WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
    3. Re:Still a sport? by flewp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A guy with a joystick is completely different. To think they are is completely ignorant and just plain stupid. Driving an F1 car requires stamina, look at how sweaty the drivers are after a race. Not only that, there's the G-forces involved, which DO play a major role over the course of a race. Even Jeff Gordon, a professional Nascar driver commented on the G-loading and the neck strain (from his head whipping and back forth) when he tested the Williams F1 car. Not only that, but it is considerably more difficult to drive a real Formula 1 car which has no power steering as opposed to driving a simulation with a joystick, or even a wheel with force feedback. Also, being in a real car gives you more tactile feedback that you have to be extremely acutely aware of, especially at the speeds and limits that exist in F1. Also, these guys are bouncing around quite a bit in these extremely stiffly sprung cars. Once again, video gamers aren't. Race car drivers also put their lives on the line each time they step out on the track. You obviousely have absolutely no clue as to the physical training and conditioning required of a Formula 1 driver to be competitive. I ask that you actually get a clue before making another dimwitted response.

      --
      WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
  7. So much of it comes down to science. by Sheetrock · · Score: 3, Interesting
    It's almost scary that they leave the human element in there at all when you think about the amount of money they sink into these cars. Granted, win or lose you've got a ton of sponsors, but it's very nearly to the point where they might as well do everything with robots.

    From complex wind shear modelling to the amount of flour to throw in the composite, almost all of the attention is paid to the machine -- it makes me wonder if they're shaving less time off the total than if they put this kind of focus on the driver (proper diet, reflexive training, etc.) Gran Turismo 3 demonstrates quite well the types of skills necessary to take on the track.

    --

    Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
    -- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.




    1. Re:So much of it comes down to science. by Ryan+Amos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Uh, dude, at this level of racing the drivers are already masters of the skills of the trade. That's what developmental leagues (NASCAR truck, regional driving leagues, etc.) are for; to become a good racer with vehicles that aren't quite so meticulously tuned. Every F1 or NASCAR racer out there has been driving cars very fast for at least 10 years. You don't just hop in to a Formula 1 car and drive; I honestly doubt most of us would be able to operate an F1 car at all. You have to keep the engine revved above 6000 RPM or it will get too cold and die. You have to regulate the fuel mixture or it won't get enough of either air or gas and die. Simple story is that they're not going to trust a $10 million car to someone who doesn't know how to drive it very very well. I think this says that most of the drivers have reached a skill level where the only deciding factor in a race is the car. If you're a fatass or if you don't know how to drive, well, you're not going to last in F1.

  8. Hey, watch that -- by RealProgrammer · · Score: 3, Funny
    • Guess you have to be a little smarter than the average bear to race a car around in circles after all.

    Bears are smart, you insensitive clod!

    But seriously, I view anything people do with wrenches as magical.

    It's so bad that when I go to a mechanic and they ask, "So, how big an engine's in that thing?", I hold my hands about two feet apart.

    --
    sigs, as if you care.
  9. Shape of tires by marol · · Score: 3, Funny

    From the red areas in the images you can clearly see that round tires are inefficient. I propose shaping them oval as a step in optimizing the aerodynamics.

  10. Williams too... and with Linux by loner0208 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Williams team also uses a scupercomputer to do a lot of their modelling, thanks to one of their major sponsors HP and a Linux supercomputer.

  11. bread statistics by Fishstick · · Score: 5, Funny

    75% !! bread is evil and must be stopped...

    I've done a little research, and what I've discovered should make anyone think twice....

    - More than 98 percent of convicted felons are bread users.

    - Fully HALF of all children who grow up in bread-consuming households score below average on standardized tests.

    - In the 18th century, when virtually all bread was baked in the home, the average life expectancy was less than 50 years; infant mortality rates were unacceptably high; many women died in childbirth; and diseases such as typhoid,yellow fever, and influenza ravaged whole nations.

    - More than 90 percent of violent crimes are committed within 24 hours of eating bread.

    - Bread is made from a substance called "dough." It has been proven that as little as one pound of dough can be used to suffocate a mouse. The average American eats more bread than that in one month!

    - Primitive tribal societies that have no bread exhibit a low incidence of cancer, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's disease, and osteoporosis.

    - Bread has been proven to be addictive. Subjects deprived of bread and given only water to eat begged for bread after as little as two days.

    - Bread is often a "gateway" food item, leading the user to "harder" items such as butter, jelly, peanut butter, and even cold cuts.

    - Bread has been proven to absorb water. Since the human body is more than 80 percent water, it follows that eating bread could lead to your body being taken over by this absorptive food product, turning you into a soggy, gooey bread-pudding person.

    - Newborn babies can choke on bread.

    - Bread is baked at temperatures as high as 400 degrees Fahrenheit! That kind of heat can kill an adult in less than one minute.

    - Most bread eaters are utterly unable to distinguish between significant scientific fact and meaningless statistical babbling.

    In light of these frightening statistics, we propose the following bread restrictions:

    - No sale of bread to minors.

    - A nationwide "Just Say No To Toast" campaign, complete with celebrity TV spots and bumper stickers.

    - A 300 percent federal tax on all bread to pay for all the societal ills we might associate with bread.

    - No animal or human images, nor any primary colors (which may appeal to children) may be used to promote bread usage.

    - The establishment of "Bread-free" zones around schools.


    http://www.obnoxiousfumes.com/archives/000376.html

    --

    There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
    Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.

    1. Re:bread statistics by the+pickle · · Score: 2, Funny

      I've seen that before, and I think it's highly entertaining, but one thing about it has always bothered me...

      It has been proven that as little as one pound of dough can be used to suffocate a mouse.

      Are there studies on this? Would it really take a whole POUND of bread dough to suffocate a mouse? I think I could probably accomplish it with as little as a tablespoon with sufficient motivation and some thick gloves...

      Ah, the important questions in life.

      p

  12. Too much tech? by Tom+Bombadill · · Score: 2, Interesting

    On Fifth Gear recently (11/22) Jackie Stewart was saying that Schumacher makes more mistakes every Gran Prix weekend than any GP racer he has ever know.

    Reliance on tech, whether track data or ASR and ABS in race cars has arguably reduced the ultimate skill levels demanded of racing's elite.

    1. Re:Too much tech? by Moofie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      OK, so what happens to your argument when I tell you that ABS and stability management (I assume that's what you're talking about when you say ASR) are banned in F1 racing?

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    2. Re:Too much tech? by PHPhD2B · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course, he can say that knowing full well he'll never be put in a new F1 car to put his mouth where his money is. Did occur to anybody Jackie Stewart might be a bit JEALOUS of Michael Schumacher's accomplishments?

      --
      --I am Sun Tzu of the Borg. Resistance is feudal.
    3. Re:Too much tech? by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 4, Informative
      No. He said something more along the lines of:

      Schumacher makes more mistakes in a Grand Prix weekend than anyone of my generation in their entire careers.

      Of course they were driving their cars a lot 'slower', partly because the cars went more slowly, but mostly because if it left the track, you were highly likely to die- they weren't even wearing seatbelts. F1 driver life expectancy was about 3 or 4 years in those days.

      Personally, I think Jackie was exagerating for effect, but he had a point.

      --

      -WolfWithoutAClause

      "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
    4. Re:Too much tech? by the+pickle · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You've lost the important point...

      Schuey still makes fewer mistakes than his competitors.

      That's why he's on top of the podium every damn weekend, and they aren't.

      It also proves that driver skill, not simply the engineering department at the manufacturer, is the ultimate and deciding factor in F1, just as it's (almost) always been.

      p

  13. Re:how about for bikes by homer_ca · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The MotoGP bikes put on a great show, but compared to F1 the machines are simpler and the engineering budgets are smaller. Motorcycle racer Eddie Lawson probably put it best when he said,

    "The truth about racing cars is that if a competent driver is in a great car, he will win. Yet a great driver in a bad car has no chance. On motorcycles, maybe a good rider on a bad bike won't win, but he definitely has a chance. In cars, you have no chance without the best machinery." (Interview is in the Dec '04 Motorcyclist mag. Not online yet.)

    Does that sound like F1?

  14. Multiplication? by MP3Chuck · · Score: 2, Funny

    From TFA: "To achieve the same computing performance, the entire population of the city of Zurich would have to multiply two eight-digit figures every four seconds for a whole year."

    Does anyone have a conversion from "multiplying two eight-digit numbers" to "reading through a Library of Congress?"

  15. Re:Design by dafz1 · · Score: 4, Informative

    No, a couple of Ferrari engineers will shop around the aero and other build info from the last year's car. Another team will give the former Ferrari engineers a job, integrate the information into their computers, make improvements, and then tell the cops it can't be removed because it may give away their car's secrets(where have I heard this argument before? SCO is creating a new way of doing business).

    In all seriousness, having the ideal optimal design is unlikely. Most teams have their own engines, which bring different performance characteristics. They even change the engine mapping during pitstops. There are two different tire companies, a number of different compounds. Take in different track temps, air temps, etc. Then you take different tracks(Monaco vs. Monza), and there will never be an optimal design, just an optimal compromise.

    This doesn't include the driver, which is the biggest difference. Look at the aggresive drivers like Montoya or Alonzo, compared their more conservative teammates. Similar/same cars, much different speeds.

  16. Re:Linux vs. Windows by damiam · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It probably means that the Linux version is statically linked to every library it could possibly need.

    --
    It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
  17. Always a Sport by ACNeal · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What you fail to realize is that this technology is available to everyone. Even if i have a technological advantage for a short period of time, my car driver, sled driver, swimmer, runner, or whatever still have to perform with the new equipment or training techniques.

    Then, when everyone else has the same technology, it falls back solely on the shoulders of the competitors. Sure technology has them going 100% faster, but everyone is going the same 100% faster. And the new breed of competitor has to be better to deal with the new tech.

    And if they turn into remote control cars, then the comptetitors are still human, and still have to be good at something, have fast reflexes, etc.

    The human will never just be along for the ride. A lot more, or different, things will be required from them, but they won't be just along for the ride.

  18. Re:how about for bikes by Llama_STi · · Score: 2, Informative

    I think Rossi proved that you can have a shit bike and still win. This year he went to the worst bike on the grid from the best the previous year. He absolutely owned everyone this season and last. Bikes aren't quite as bad off as F1, obviously.