Slashdot Mirror


Dutch Gov't Doubles Back On Open-Source Goals

An anonymous reader writes "Despite a 2002 unanimous vote by the Dutch parliament to prefer open standards and open source, exclusive negotiations with Microsoft were started. MPs have started asking questions already, but will add some more now that a Dutch journalist discovered that the deal will cripple the open source ambitions. The deal not only covers desktop software, but lets Microsoft deliver server software and support as well. MPs are outraged, and the EU may investigate why no mandatory public bid was started. In an open letter to the government, public organizations and open source companies like Novell raise hell. How can you ever fight bureaucrats?"

68 of 348 comments (clear)

  1. not so bad news by mirko · · Score: 2, Informative

    MPs are outraged, and the EU may investigate why no mandatory public bid was started.

    nothing has been paid yet and an enquiry will be done, so let's avoid being indignated and be constructive against such practices...

    --
    Trolling using another account since 2005.
    1. Re:not so bad news by adhocboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      yes, I am sure that the microsoft contract negotiations are just a ploy to get a better price on the open source software. :) This is clearly an indication of how deeply infected the Dutch IT scene is. Really, it's funny. The original open source decision was to prevent companies like MS from being able to gain subtle control of the IT decisions... but now it looks like the MPs were a couple of years too late. :) I say, give microsoft its Dane's Geld and move on. Don't tick them off, or they'll raise the price even further (and its obvious the Dutch will HAVE to pay...).

    2. Re:not so bad news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      let's avoid being indignated and be constructive against such practices.

      The reason people are indignant is that they've seen it before and there is nothing the common man can do to fight it. In the USA, despite all the outrage online RIAA and MPAA still get whatever bills and lawsuits they need into action; there was a huge grassroots effort to stop, then overturn the DMCA and it still exists; people have been "raising hell" about the PATRIOT Act for years now to no avail; and when citizens have voted locally in states to pass such things as medical marijuana, stem cell research and gay marriage laws, they have only prompted attack by the Feds.

      This is what happens when you sign your power over to others for collective use; they use it to further their own ends and the ends of their friends, inevitably. This is the reason for the concept of inalienable rights outlined in several historical documents including the Magna Carta and the US Declaration of Independence.

    3. Re:not so bad news by God_of_Belac · · Score: 2, Informative

      Bishops? You mean Barons. Who were none too savory characters anyhow. In any event, local governments can be just as oppressive, and the federal government can be just as supportive of individuals' rights, so it's not the nature of the institutions that's the problem.

    4. Re:not so bad news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, then, if you want to see more dirty tricks by M$, then investigate something called "CTMI" in the Toronto District School Board. M$ is demanding that linux labs be shutdown in schools, (or not allowed at all), forcing schools to buy Dell computers ONLY, with a "special" image of M$ junk, at horrendous costs to taxpayers, regardless of what teachers and students want. Corruption at the highest levels, due to M$ influence. Millions of taxpayers dollars squandered and sent to M$...

      "Go ahead, tax me, I'm Canadian."

    5. Re:not so bad news by EzInKy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The reason people are indignant is that they've seen it before and there is nothing the common man can do to fight it. In the USA, despite all the outrage online RIAA and MPAA still get whatever bills and lawsuits they need into action; there was a huge grassroots effort to stop, then overturn the DMCA and it still exists;

      Where'd did you ever get that the idea there was a "huge" grassroots movement? Nobody has been canvassing my neighborhood to sign petitions nor have I seen any million person anti-DMCA marches on Washington. Sure it's a common topic on some internet sites but it's rarely mentioned in the mainstream media.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
  2. How can you ever fight bureaucrats? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I was going to say 'steal their brains' but that won't work either.

    1. Re:How can you ever fight bureaucrats? by smoking2000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My thoughts exactly.

      But make sure that you have a sane replacement ready, before their position is filled with a next-gen bureaucrat with ideas in new and innovative ways of cluelessness.

    2. Re:How can you ever fight bureaucrats? by Jakosa · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Have been tried many times, it creates chaos. Take Iraq. You remove the Baath party and everything collapses.

      Not to be cynical, but it seems what civilisation is all about is.. Bureaucracy. It is not like evolution or liberalism etc. has removed it. We have as much as the Romans did and even more.

  3. dammed balkenende by dogfull · · Score: 4, Informative

    never keeps his promises....

    anyhow, nothing has been done yet, so let's not be too quick on judgements...

    though I wonder why they did this.... licking heels of american companies hasn't helped us the last time (Joint Strike Fighter, anyone?)

    And, yes, I'm from holland :)

  4. We know what this means by Graabein · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I guess we know what this means, that for some people at least all the talk about using open source and open standards was just a play to squeeze Microsoft.

    --
    And remember kids: Never trust a computer you can actually lift.
    1. Re:We know what this means by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yea... in an alternate universe where Microsoft is not a convicted monopolist and isn't the most evil company on the planet..

      I guess then it can be true..

      More likely, some sort of bribery has taken place.

    2. Re:We know what this means by LaCosaNostradamus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure. But I don't mind. Using the existence of a competitor is still actual competition. If the Dutch gain significant concessions from Microsoft, then I'm happy. Half the problem in the supply of the software world is Microsoft's overriding presence. If we can knock their prices down on discounting, the Microsoft Monolith will become less of a problem for the world.

      On that note, I can't wait for the Chinese Microsoft to become visible. The press is pretending no such thing exists, but it's out there in some embryonic form, and it will undoubtedly be a major software force for over 1 billion Orientals. (Er, when I say "Chinese Microsoft", I don't mean "Microsoft subsidiary operating in China/Orient", I mean "Chinese OS provider with a lock on the Oriental market like Microsoft does on the West's".)

      --
      [You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
  5. Maybe not as bad as it seems by hak+hak · · Score: 3, Informative
    The article contains a link to a letter (in Dutch) to all Dutch municipalities. It is an invitation to join the negotiations between the Ministry of Justice and Microsoft. The deal appears to concern at least 250,000 Windows desktops. However, the first paragraph of the letter clearly states the following (translation and emphasis mine):

    To prevent misunderstandings: this is about the continuation of agreements to which many users feel compelled to on the short term; this does not change the fact that on mid and long term, the alternative of open source software receives all attention.

    1. Re:Maybe not as bad as it seems by 1u3hr · · Score: 4, Insightful
      To prevent misunderstandings: this is about the continuation of agreements to which many users feel compelled to on the short term; this does not change the fact that on mid and long term, the alternative of open source software receives all attention.

      It's meaningless; "mid and long term" just gives them an excuse to ALWAYS say that it'll be considered for the "next" contract. And gives them a club to beat MS with to get bigger discounts.

    2. Re:Maybe not as bad as it seems by mollymoo · · Score: 4, Funny
      this does not change the fact that on mid and long term, the alternative of open source software receives all attention

      The Netherlands' mum:
      But you promised you would move to open standards years ago!

      The Netherlands:
      I'll do it tomorrow.

      The Netherlands' mum:
      That's what you always say and it never gets done, does it? Have you tidied your room like I asked you to?

      The Netherlands:
      I'll do it tomorrow. God I hate you. I didn't ask to be born!

      --
      Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
    3. Re:Maybe not as bad as it seems by proton · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or in politiceeze:

      "this does not change the fact that on mid [english: after I retire] and long term [english: after Im dead and buried], the alternative of open source software receives all attention [english: attention by someone else, maybe]."

      /pro

    4. Re:Maybe not as bad as it seems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
      this does not change the fact that on mid and long term, the alternative of open source software receives all attention.


      No, of course not!

      When "mid" and "long" term finally arrive the Dutch government will find their data 'safely' tucked away in WinFS with no means of export. Having had their data locked down by Microsoft they will then discover that the 'price cuts' they thought they were so clever in negotiating will evaporate 10X over when Bill sends them the next bill.

      They will also find that their 'negotiations' didn't reduce the crashes, data loss through corruption, data theft by black hats, loss of time rebooting, rebuilding or reinstalling, and the plague of viruses that cause even more COSTLY grief. Being a small country they will watch in helpless horror as they see a significant portion of their GNP go to feed the ambitions of the world's richest man.

      Welcome to our world! Now you are truly like the USA!

    5. Re:Maybe not as bad as it seems by krumms · · Score: 3, Funny

      The Netherlands' mum:
      But you promised you would move to open standards years ago!

      The Netherlands:
      I'll do it tomorrow.

      The Netherlands' mum:
      That's what you always say and it never gets done, does it? Have you tidied your room like I asked you to?

      The Netherlands:
      I'll do it tomorrow. God I hate you. I didn't ask to be born!


      Vile woman! You've impeded my progress from the day I escaped from your wretched womb!

  6. About by northcat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Don't know about there, but here the bureaucrats (did I get the spelling right?) have an upper hand over politicians. Politicians are there in the office just for few years - bureaucrats are there for decades. And bureaucrats have more technical knowledge than politicians (at least here).

    1. Re:About by Jakosa · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Where is there and here? I guess what you are talking about is typical for all modern democracies, but still..

      When I have discussed open source with Danish officials, they are always very conservative. They would choose to go for a more expensive, but known solution any day. If the known solution is on a discount they would not think about it for a minute. Civil servants are not like politicians at all. They aren't supposed to take any decisions (ideally), but to make everything work on a day to day basis. This make them shun risk at any cost, even if trying something new could bring big savings, more efficiency or the like. They live in a political world but opposed to the politicians their objective isn't to have a profile but to avoid making mistakes. They are as far as you come from an entrepreneur.

  7. Re:Easy! by BristolCream · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's a mix of water and insoluble particles, usually cow poo, that is spread on fields to keep them fertile.

  8. Bribing by Qbertino · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As of now I have no doubt whatsoever that Microsoft is excessively bribing the deciders in the european political open source and software patent discussion. Simple and flat out. Deciders that don't have the haziest of concepts of what software and open source is about get invited to sessions with "software-experts" on 100 percent MS payroll, taking all their crap for granted. And most certainly later on cut a deal on consulting or for holding a keynote or something other.
    The irish EU presidency saw the up to then most extreme case, with the president taking a 180 turn of the decision the EU-parlament had issued not longer than a half a year earlyer on software patents.
    We are about to see more of this.
    I very much welcome the EU officials looking into this and (hopefully) preparing appropriate measures of dealing with flat-out violations of law like this one.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
    1. Re:Bribing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      well, in the irish case, it was probably easy - Microsoft: "Support software patents or we'll leave Ireland, costing hundreds to thousands of high-paid of jobs". Politicians treat "employment" as an important issue - they don't much care _what_ people are working at, so long as they're working and not causing trouble. Tell them "I don't care how many jobs Microsoft brought to Ireland, I for one would never work for such an unethical company" and they'll laugh in your face and call you a hippy idealist (I know from personal experience) - yet I also know at least a hundred Irish highly-qualified computer people who would never work for microsoft for exactly that reason.

    2. Re:Bribing by nwbvt · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So any time anyone chooses a MS product over an opern source product, it must be because of bribery and not because of some legit reason (like lack of training)?

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
  9. Re:OT: What does "Dutch" mean? by Xetrov · · Score: 2, Informative

    Both.

    Because they are the same thing...

  10. Re:OT: What does "Dutch" mean? by laurens · · Score: 5, Informative

    Dutch = relating to The Netherlands (country) or it main language.
    "Holland" is just a small part of The Netherlands (2 provinces: South Holland and North Holland combined).

    If you refer to the coutry, its people, or its language, the correct terms are "The Netherlands (Nederland)", "The Dutch (Nederlanders)", and "Dutch (Nederlands)".

  11. Re:OT: What does "Dutch" mean? by laurens · · Score: 2, Informative

    Nope, sorry.

    Holland is just a small part of The Netherlands. It is also a popular but incorrect name for the whole country called The Netherlands.

    It's in the same league, but not quite the same, as calling the UK "England" or -oppositely- calling the US "America".

  12. Re:OT: What does "Dutch" mean? by PC_Detonator · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Additionally, remember dat Dutch is not only spoken in The Netherlands, but also in Belgium (the country beneath The Netherlands). So Dutch speaking people means more than only the people from The Netherlands.

  13. Re:Excellent news! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Thank you lord bill for more words of wisdom to put in the sacred documents.

    the "monks of bill(tm)" will faithfully document the teachings of the great one and spread it far and wide for all to enjoy and be required to read as per their signing over their soul in the EULA they hath clicked on.

    the time to harvest those that have unknowingly joined is almost at hand!

    we are prepared oh great bill. please give us guidance here on your holiest of communication boards where we fight evil that is known as linux.

    Oh may ah may atrium!

  14. Re:OT: What does "Dutch" mean? by jeroendekkers · · Score: 2, Informative

    No, people often use "Holland" when they actually mean "the Netherlands". Holland is only the western part of the Netherlands, nowadays split it up in two provinces: South-Holland and North-Holland. The Netherlands has 10 other provinces however.

    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland for more information about Holland and compare it with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands. The word "Dutch" refers to Netherlands-related stuff.

  15. Re:OT: What does "Dutch" mean? by The_jos · · Score: 2, Informative

    Dutch is also spoken in Suriname and The Netherlands Antilles.
    The South African language is also related to Dutch. In Belgium, there are two main languages, French and Dutch.

  16. Re:Ignore me, I misread... by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 4, Funny

    Last time I post first thing after getting up!

    Well, you shouldn't post before getting up either.

  17. Re:OT: What does "Dutch" mean? by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 3, Informative

    Ok, just to clear up some of the confusion people have stirred up:

    "Dutch" means of the Netherlands, AKA Holland.

    Technically, Holland is just a part of the Netherlands. However, I do not believe refering to the country as "Holland" is incorrect any more than refering to the USA as "America" is incorrect. It's common usage.

    Groeten aan alle nederlandse slasdotters!

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  18. translation by dogfull · · Score: 3, Informative

    English is almost as much of an PITA as dutch...

    anyhoo, dutch refers to the old word that was used for the dutch language, 'duits'. Which is in effect now used for the german language...

    To the point: I've created an translation of BOF's open letter. Its not perfect, so please send corrections to bartwiegmans@gmail.com

    It's located at home.kabelfoon.nl/~bwiegm/index.html

  19. Which Would You Rather Have? by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ok, so which would you rather have?

    They stay with MS for the time being, spend some extra money, and keep applying those patches?

    Or they switch all everything over right now, and everything comes crashing down because the sysadmins are not competent with the new software?

    I think a gradual switch is definitely preferable. This seems to be exactly what is happening (the text clearly states that OSS remains the goal for the long term).

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    1. Re:Which Would You Rather Have? by The_jos · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've worked at the Netherlands Ministry of Housing, Spatial planning and the Environment (VROM in Dutch) about 4 or 5 years ago as an IT specialist. It's not only about the sysadmins. When I started working there, they were cutting the number of applications. As far as I remember, they were trying to cut from about 1500 different applications to about 600 to 700. Most of them were Windows applications. My grilfriend worked at a Dutch city hall. She had to support between 45 to 60 different Windows applications. Switching from MS software to something else could mean that most of these applications have also to be converted / substituted. That's not something that can be done easily. I can understand the short-time choice for MS software. But the negotiations with MS seem to conflict with government policy.

    2. Re:Which Would You Rather Have? by IO+ERROR · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The U.S. has many thousands of unemployed or underemployed Linux admins who I'm sure would love to go to Europe for a few months to help ease the transition to open source. Where do I sign up?

      --
      How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
    3. Re:Which Would You Rather Have? by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Third option: direct half of the money that goes to Microsoft into the development of replacement software. One package at a time. That way you can see that the intentions are honest and not a cheap ploy to ignore parliament.

    4. Re:Which Would You Rather Have? by JamieF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I guess they should wait until all of their MCSEs spontaneously develop Linux skills, huh?

      Switching to Linux on some desktops doesn't mean that you have no options whatsoever to run Windows-only apps.

      Also, there are these things called "vendors", who support open source software with trained staff, training, books, patches, etc.

  20. Microsoft can't compete on a level playing field by QuietLagoon · · Score: 2, Funny

    Microsoft needs non-public backroom agreements in order to get their software accepted. Plus some loose money here and there (a la Ed Black and the CCIA) always seems to help Microsoft get their software in place.

  21. Re:Our current government... by smoking2000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    [Our current government] Is the most corrupt one in many many years...

    I hope that both the related ministers and MS executives get a big bucked of shit over themselfs.


    Why hope? Let's go and do something about it.

    In my oppinion, the Dutch public was about to empeach our current ministers, too many people were/are upset over the issues of early retirement, healthcare etc. We are represented by a government for which we did not vote (the majority voted for a CDA/PVDA coalition, we got a CDA/VVD/D66 coalition in which the agenda of the VVD rules), they take measure of which the public does not approve, so the public is in it's democratic right to demand changes, either by the current government or by one we'll elect because the current one does not do what the people want and demand.

    Why were there no mobs of people in The Hague, demanding a change of government and/or it's policy? Because some lunatic shoots a filmmaker at just the right time (just like with the rise of Pim Fortuyn), one which just happens to have a very critical opinion towards this government and his opinion tends to influence those of others. Now we start to get a US-like situation, were the public is manipulated by FUD about threats of terrorism and fear of all that is Islamic. But the public opinion is once again in favor of the current government. I accuse them of creating momentum by assinating a critic and a politician who demanded change in the current political system, and using this momentum to assure their continuity and increasing their power and control.

    Almost an exact copy of what happend in the US after 9/11. I guess now I know what our Minister President talked about with GWB, tactics on how to spin public opinion in your benefit and how to ensure the profitability of our own Oil (Royal Dutch Shell) and War (Stork, Urenco) industry.

    You know what? I'm still fed up with it! I demand change, but it seams that only in Eastern Europe the public can still demand changes. The West has lost their will to fight or question authority. *sigh*

  22. If you can't fight them... by Reverant · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...fire them!

  23. I dont mind Microsoft in government by jonwil · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The job of government is to use the right tool for the job.
    If that tool is Microsoft software, thats fine.

    What is needed, however, is an insistance on Open Standards whenever possible (for example, I doubt you will find a police dispatch system built around Open Standards).
    And then have a competitive tender process.
    If Open Source can show a better outcome than Microsoft software, it should be used. But if Microsoft software is the better alternative, use it.

    1. Re:I dont mind Microsoft in government by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In this particular case, Dutch parliament has decided a year back that the right tool for the job would be open source software. Government however now completely ignores parliament and attempts to con up an exclusive deal with Microsoft. It might too difficult to go a full open-source route right away, but striking a deal that will tie the government (plus its public documents) to the beast of Redmond for a couple of years exclusively means, in essence, that government has ignored parliament. And this is not the first time.

  24. Re:OT: What does "Dutch" mean? by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 2, Funny
    Actually, Holland has occupied the Netherlands, and those pesky Dutch are simply trying to profit from this.

    Fryslân boppe!

    </tongue in cheek>

  25. Not bribe, political strategy. by Jakosa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The political system is, in its way of making decisions, very far from the way you makes decisions in IT departments, small and big (there is of course a certain political influence even here). But for politicians it is not about having the most efficient system. It doesn't matter if it is expensive as long as you have control and can avoid scandals. MS offers exactly the kind of control that politicians like. With MS they talk to people in suits that can be manipulated economically. This is preferable to Idealist.

    The good thing is that their fear of scandal can be used and that is what have happened, recently. The politicians worst nightmare is to look like a crafty bureaucrat and therefore they actually respond to the public pointing out the inconsistency of their arguments. We will see lots of this kind of things in the near future and that is a good thing. This whole slashdot story is about somebody trying to sneak MS in the backdoor. Five years ago nobody would have noticed.

  26. open letter translation by Trestran · · Score: 3, Informative

    In case someone is interested, I was bored and translated the open letter. The [...] remarks are translation notes added by me. I did it pretty quickly so there are probably quite a few spelling and other mistakes. You have been warned.



    To:

    Prime-Minister Balkenende
    Ministry of General Affairs
    PO box 20001
    2500 EA the Hague
    fax 070-3564683

    Minister De Graaf
    Ministry of Internal Affairs and Kingdomsrelations
    PO box 20011
    2500 EA the Hague
    fax 070-3639153

    Minister Brinkhorst
    Ministry of Economic Affairs
    PO box 20101
    2500 EC the Hague


    Transcripts to:

    Permanent commision for Economic Affairs
    Second chamber of the States-General [Dutch Parliament]
    PO box 20018
    2500 EA the Hague
    fax 070-3183439

    Permanent commision for Internal Affairs and Kingdomsrelations
    Second chamber of the States-General [Dutch Parliament]
    PO box 20018
    2500 EA the Hague
    fax 070-3183444

    Send by fax and lettermail.

    Amsterdam, 10th of december 2004

    Subject: state government[literaly the kingdoms' government in Dutch] contract with Microsoft

    Very honored mister Balkenende, de Graaf, Brinkhorst,


    The Automationguide of Friday 3rd of december reported that the state government and some muncipalities want to close an exclusive contract worth 147 milion Euro and a term of five years with Microsoft. In the realization thereof no public bidding took place.

    Undersigned organisations are worried about this intention and want to make you aware of the negative effects that such a contract has on the software market and the climate of inovation in the Netherlands. Likewise such a contract is contrary to the by the Cabinet stipulated policy regarding the use of open standards and open source at the government level and the aspiration to make the government less depandant of a single software supplier. On top of this Microsoft has been convicted by the European Commision because of poor interoperability of its server software.

    On the 20th of november 2002 the Second chamber spoke out unanimously for the motion [a proposal by the Parliament to the government] Vendrik in which the Government was asked to counteract concentrations in the software market, to make sure that in 2006 all sofware used by the public sector adheres to open standards and to "actively stimulate the spreading and development of software with open sourcecode (open source software) in the public sector and formulate concrete and ambitious goals for this".

    The ministries of BZK [internal affairs] and EZ [economic affairs] have set up the programme Open Standards and Open Source Software (OSOSS) to stimulate government organizations in a wide sense to use open standards in their ICT-applications. Moreover the programme Purchasing Taskasignment (PIT) has set up a ICT-purchasestrategy for the state government in which the following starting points have been included: guaranteeing of interoperability and the avoidance and where necesary breaking of vendor lock-in.

    Undersigned organizations are of the opinion that the closing of such a contract with Microsoft will to the locking of the door in the coming five years with regards to the application of open standards, free software and open source software. The now held contract negotiations are squarly oposed to the motion Vendrik and undermine the positive results of the OSOSS programme. On top of this the carefully formulated targets of the PIT are being bypassed.

    Undersigned organizations call on the Cabinet to take in take in hand the usage of open standards, free software and open source software seriously and ambitiously. Meanwhile there are sufficient initiatives within the government that proof that such software kan offer many advantages on the areas of interoperability, security and costs.

    In the opinion of the undersigned a contract of s

  27. How can you ever fight bureaucrats? by CdBee · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ask the Iraqis, I guess. If you aren't willing to go to such extremes, either infiltrate them or put forward a genuinely and observably superior alternative.
    The OSS movement needs to win people over, not fight them

    --
    I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
  28. This kind of stuff always happens by Bozdune · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Vendors have "relationships" with buyers in companies. They wine 'em, dine 'em, hassle 'em, etc. That's what they do. It's ALL they do. They try to do this in secret. Why let the competition know?

    I remember when I was VP Engineering for a company, and I showed up one morning and there were all these drones from Compaq installing those idiotic "non-expandable crapola PC inside a 14" monitor" boxes that they used to sell. They were putting them EVERYWHERE.

    Yup, you guessed it, the Controller just decided on his own to go buy about 50 of these useless things. Never asked anyone for advice, even though he had about 40 engineers including me he could have consulted, any one of which would have told him that his decision was nuts.

    I got the Compaq sales guy alone in my office. I told him never to set foot in the building again. I told him Compaq would never, ever, sell us anything again as long as I was there. And they didn't. It didn't stop them from calling me. At the end, they were offering to rip every single PC out and put in some other hunk of crap. for like $200/station.

    But then we sold the whole company, so that was that.

  29. You can't drop it all overnight. by mindstrm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They are currently knee-deep in MS contracts. When those expire, they can't just switch to something else on a whim, they have to be prepared. Switches like this are difficult, and need ot be planned out. The advantages are long-term, not short-term.

    So given that you have a huge IT infrastrucutre that relies on MS, and your service and support contracts are expiring.. what do you do? You negotiate with microsoft for how to proceed.

    An agreement to persue and prefer open source doesn't mean dropping the ball on everything you are currently doing.

  30. Re:OT: What does "Dutch" mean? by AgentSmit · · Score: 3, Interesting

    However, I do not believe refering to the country as "Holland" is incorrect any more than refering to the USA as "America" is incorrect. It's common usage.
    On quite a different scale however...

    About country names: the Dutch call Germany "Duitsland", the Germans themselves call it "Deutschland". "Dutch" meaning "from Holland" is therefor quite remarkable. We Dutch call ourselves "Nederlanders" or "Hollanders" and our neigbours are named "Duitsers". When we Dutch people talk about Germans ("Germanen") we refer to a people that once lived in western Europe (Germanic tribe). Still get it?

    In our national anthem however, we sing "ben ik van Duitschen bloed", literally "am I of Dutch blood", indicating that even to the Dutch it is not quite clear wether to be called "Dutch" is a good or a 'bad' thing. Since there is no real alternative to "Dutch" in English I have no objection.

  31. A good position for them to be in... by Deviant · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Contrary to what many here think, I believe that this is a good and reasonable decision. Right now they have an MS solution that is most likely near the end of life. They bought themselves a big discount and some time from MS by voicing their dissatisfaction and intent to look into open source so they might as well use it to provide a smooth transition while they wait for the opensource solution to come together and prove itself in the marketplace. I like Linux, and use it myself on the desktop when appropriate, but it still isn't a 100% solution and replacement for their desktop environment and it still hasn't proved itself in a comparable situation. Just think how the story would go if they tried to go to Linux prematurely and it failed and they had to go crawling back to MS. Can you imagine the press and the damage to Linux's reputation? This was by far the better thing for the Dutch, the better thing for Linux, and also a good thing for MS in the short term and gives them one last chance to prove their modern solution is superior to their previous generations and maybe good enough to take some of the reasons for a switch away. Given the progress on the desktop Linux front things might be alot different and more mature in two or three years and that OS and migration is the exposure that we want to give Linux. MS will also have a harder sell with Longhorn about that time. Just be patient and keep plugging along with development and testing and remember that when it comes to something this prominent and on this scale this we want to make a good first impression and not an embarrassing defeat.

  32. One reason we formed the OSC by Alkarismi · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It became entirely apparent to me just over a year ago that *real* F/L/OSS advocacy was needed in the Government arena - to help stop sh*t like this happening.

    And if you think the proprietary vendors are going to stop Microsoft - you're living in a dream-world!

    This is one of the reasons why we formed the Open Source Consortium in the UK, a coalition of almost 70 F/L/OSS pure-play companies to provide a vendor neutral voice representing the views of the community to government. The other main reson being to give them a deployment force which is not controlled by any of the proprietary vendors.

    Of course, we were slated on slashdot just over a week ago. Interesting how you guys can whine about this kind of stuff happening, and then whine about your own kind coming together to try and stop it!

    Anyway, if there are any of you out there interested in actually *doing* something about this, rather than inneffective whingeing on slashdot, you may like to consider joining us!

    Oh, and you might like to consider funding FSF Europe as well - Georg and the guys are amongst the few front-line organisations we've got actually having an impact over here right now.

    Or you can just get back to compaining how unfair it all is...

    Open Source Consortium
    www.opensourceconsortium.org

  33. Good to have the EU monitor them by j.leidner · · Score: 2, Interesting
    MPs are outraged, and the EU may investigate why no mandatory

    It's nice to see that cross-national EU procedures seem to be in place to monitor these kinds of worrying development. It shows that the EU is not (just) about bureaucracy and 'being ruled from Brussels' as my British friends like to put it, but actually an effective means to watch what all its member governments are doing.

    --
    Coolbeans! The Nuggets , SMS search engine -- text your questions, get your answers from the Web, now all across the UK.

  34. The Dutch connection by theolein · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What makes me raise my eyebrows on occasion is the way that the Netherlands seems to be on a particularly anti-european or pro-american (depending on your viewpoint) bent in recent years. The Dutch military choosing the American Apache helicopter instead of the Eurocopter Tiger. The Dutch military choosing the american M-16 rifle for some reason that no one can quite fathom. The Dutch choosing to participate in the F-35 JSF fighter consortium which hasn't really brought them any benefits. The Dutch signing on to the Iraq war fiasco, which wasn't even very popular in Holland at the time. And now the great Microsoft deal of the century when just about every other country in the world, let alone Europe, is at least looking at Open Source alternatives.

    There are probably some good business and political reasons behind this but more often than not, the Dutch decisions seem to me to some kind of attempt to deliberately put the Germans and the French at a distance. I can understand that in a way as Holland is smaller than those two and could fear being overruled by them, but it mostly comes across as the epitomy of the old saying "Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face", i.e. doing something on principle even though it has no benefit to one.

    Sadly, a lot of stuff in the EU seems to happen like this where national self interest can torpedo some very good projects (and bad as well, to be fair).

  35. For the rest of the world by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Funny
    That is somebody from the province of friesland. To translate to an american, think inbred right-wing religious freak hillbilly from the deepest south. Very little is known about friesland wich has its own langauge wich isn't related to any known language. (goverment tv transmits some programs in fries. It is rather telling that they always seem to be about farming and have at least one interviewy with his/her arms up a cow) If your a foreign visitor and you find yourselve stuck on the "afsluitdijk" heading east from Amsterdam STOP AND TURN BACK. On no account head on. They eat people there.

    Sometimes some of the fries make it west accross the "afsluitdijk" and cause havoc in Amsterdam before they are beaten up by the locals. If you ever see a fight in Amsterdam it is always a farmer from friesland or it close relative groningen.

    Every country got parts it ain't proud off. Americans got the bible belt. The united kingdom got wales. Germany got all off germany and The Netherlands got friesland. We are still trying to convince them to start a war of independence.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:For the rest of the world by Teun · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The following might not be of interest to the typical /.er or the AC above :

      I don't care about the ones with moustaches.

      But I do care about the multitude of tall leggy blondes that walk/ bike the streets of the Friesian cities, especially Sneek (Snits in Friesian) has a reputation for classy Blondie's.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  36. Yeah right, from somebody who lives there by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Informative
    The last dutch goverment left a real feeling of frustration on the voter. It left the country open to the rise of Pim Fortuyn who for better or worse was at least promising to shake up the system. Sadly he was murdered and the entire country voted for a party with an inexperienced leader because he was the safest most boring choice.

    Since then "Balkenende" has shown a complete lack of leadership skill. His party has tried to force through cuts in pension plans despire massive opposotiion from the unions, industry AND the goverments economic think tank. Massive demonstations have no effect EVEN a gigantic drop in the polls has no effect. Even in cases where both industry AND unions together without threath of strikes agree to compensate the cuts for the workers involved the goverment wants to outlaw this.

    This is part of a much larger problem in europe. You see for all the talk about america and its two party system and the Bushes and Haliburtons there is one thing to remember. People are talking about the problems in america. Michael Moore does make his documenturies. There is no such thing in holland or for that matter the EU.

    Whenever you hear about corruption/incompetence/complacency in america the exact same thing is happening in europe. Withone tiny little difference. Nobody is talking about it.

    Basically what you got is corrupt system, not the kind of corruption you see in the movies with brown envolopes but a far deeper backroom deals going unquestioned for ever corruption of the mind. Most of the people involved wouldn't even be able to consider taking "hospitality" from MS as being corrupted. They live in their own world wich has been carefully drained of everyone who questions things.

    If you want to see the idea. Examine "group think" on places like /.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  37. Re:UK:England::!US:America by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually its correct to say Canada is in America. Ditto mexico. For that matter its correct to say Brazil. Is in America.

    Main Entry: America Pronunciation: &-'mer-&-k& Usage: geographical name 1 either continent (N. America or S. America) of the western hemisphere 2 or the Americas /-k&z/ the lands of the western hemisphere including N., Central, & S. America & the W. Indies 3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

  38. Re:Price is not everything. by Simonetta · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The government (anybody's government) is a huge bureaucratic organization that is comprised of people who primarily want stability. They want nothing to threaten their position, pension, and job security.
    Given a choice of spending other people's money (your's, the taxpayer) or going with a group that has no formal organization that can take legal responsibility when systems break down, the bureaucrats will always chose buying the service from another large organization. That way they are protected. The fact that Linux Open Source is a better situation for the taxpayers and government information systems is secondary.
    There are three ways to deal with this situation:
    Pass laws requiring the use of open-source. This won't work because bureaucrats will always twist the law to fit their needs, which in this case is to 'cover their ass' when (not if) the information system breaks down.
    Make Microsoft unaffordable Stop paying taxes in a big way so that the government doesn't have the money available to afford the Microsoft solution. This won't work because the government can use any amount violence to take your money from you, and because Microsoft can lower the initial offering price to almost nothing to secure the contract. This will work in developing countries, eventually, but not in the EU or USA.
    Have open source so widely used that Microsoft can't link into the established framework This won't work because Microsoft will always allow free limited distribution of its product (by technically permitting unpaid copies to be made of Windows and Office) enough to keep itself being the defacto standard in use.

    The only way that the open source community can win against Microsoft in government procurement contracts is to be so transparently better that the government buyers will be willing to overlook its stark disadvantages (to the bureaucrats) in order to have a greatly superior product.
    This can't happen because great software is mostly the result of great individual programmers.
    Microsoft has the funds to buy their work, talents, and focus for its exclusive use in Windows. The only way that Microsoft can fail here is if they refuse to pay their most highly productive 'superstar' programmers enough, or refuse to make the necessary effort to recruit them in the first place. Given that MS is run by super programmers (even if he is retired from actual coding) like Bill Gates, this too is unlikely.
    The only way to beat Microsoft is convince them to hire mediocre executive leadership. This is the only way to beat any large powerful organization.

  39. A questionnaire ... by thrill12 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... by 'De automatiseringsgids', a Dutch weekly newsletter for IT professionals, put the people in favor and opposing this deal to a 51-49 percentile stand off. What is clear from this questionairre, however, is that people opposing it know much much better why they opposed it ; funding their opinions appropriately. People in favor of the deal played mostly stupid when they were asked the same thing.

    I understand politicians are in the latter category, but it worries me that so many "IT professionals" are sticking their heads in the sand as well !

    --
    Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
  40. In a democracy.... by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... the elctorate get the govemrnet they deserve.

    In the Netherlands they decided that a populist, unexperienced "party" was a good choice while many sane people in th rest of Europe were rolling their eyes in disbelief.

    Well, now you have the consequences.

    Goverments had never governed (and they should not, IMHO) based on demonstrations or opinion polls. Goverments are suppossed to have a plan and they should try to implement it.

    How from a clueless goverment elected by, pardon the battering, clueless people, you jump to your tirade about corruption, is baffling.

    To say that corruption is swept under the carpet in Europe is ludicrous. Berlusconi in Italy just was half aquited on corruption charges, a close ally was sentenced to 9 years for mafia links. In Germany people close to Helmut Khol were sentenced for all kind of muddy dealings, in the UK politicians that fail to live to expections regularly have to resing and in some cases even go to jail.

    Your ascertion is completely untrue and clueless, corruption is fought all around Europe.

    Compare that with Ronald Reagan and his mob, breaking the law, and living to be hailed as heroes for doing so.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  41. Local business vs American business by WampagingWabbits · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The answer is simple: forget about 'linux' vs 'windows' talk about a Dutch software vendor vs an American software vendor.

    No Dutch linux vendor? Then talk about European vs American, or some entrepreneurial Dutch company can repackage the German SUSE.

  42. Re:Price is not everything. by jbn-o · · Score: 4, Informative

    The government (anybody's government) is a huge bureaucratic organization that is comprised of people who primarily want stability.

    Peruvian Congressman Villanueva wrote a scathing letter to a Microsoft representative who tried to railroad him into an argument centered on price and how practical it would be to let Microsoft fulfill all of one's technical needs (Villanueva did not take the bait and debunked every one of the MS rep's arguments, noting in part that "it is not enough that it [the software] is technically capable of fulfilling a task"). Villanueva demanded the freedoms of free software (he was particular about which movement he sides with) and free formats for goverment use. His bill did not require free software to be used in Peruvian government work nor does it require Microsoft to change its executives.

    The free software movement makes no demands who is or becomes Microsoft's executives, yet Microsoft is nervous. Microsoft has toured the country proclaiming the GNU General Public License to be like a cancer and destructive to one's "intellectual property". They are losing seats (hence their willingness to give away Microsoft Windows in some cases) and Microsoft is losing the web server market to Apache, Firefox is eating into their web browser dominance, and most importantly Microsoft provides no software freedom for their most popular programs. Even if we look at this issue in the narrow terms of market popularity, if their market lead were only vulnerable by those who somehow "convince them to hire mediocre executive leadership" they would not need to expend any effort denouncing copylefted free software.

  43. Open Source needs a bribery fund by Fratz · · Score: 2, Insightful
    While Open Source solutions may be better for an organization in the long-run, there's an unfortunate lack of bribery (aka kickbacks) possible when Open Source solutions are chosen over Closed Source. Keep in mind, many decision-makers are used to being persuaded into making decisions by commercial vendors in the form of free product, expensive vacations, and plain old cash. Open Source proponents generally can't do that.

    I believe we need to start the Open Source Bribery Fund (OSBF) to level the playing field. After all, you will always have some corrupt decision-makers to deal with, and evening out the bribery between solutions would perhaps encourage them to think of the actual merits of each solution.

    --
    -- Fratz, human
  44. No tendering = Illegal by jabuzz · · Score: 2, Informative

    The EU Directives 93/36/EEC (Supplies) 92/50/EEC (Services) and 93/37/EEC (Works) require that where a single order or contract shall be greater than the relevant thresholds, or by aggregation of demand (orders or contracts for the same goods/services/works or of a similar nature) over a period of twelve months or intended contract period, shall be advertised first and in their most complete form via the Official Journal of the European Union (OJEU).

    For supplies and services the threshold is about 240,000 Euros. If they have not done this then you can find yourself in *big* trouble. There is a mechanism (The Compliance Directive) by which "aggrieved" suppliers can take whatever public body has not followed these procdures correctly to court and seek a judical review, with a range of remedies including potentially getting a contract overturned and damages.

    Unless the Dutch goverment has been following the regulations closely they could find themselves in deep water, from either an "aggrieved" supplier or the Commission.

    How do I know all this? Well I have the dubious privalege of working for a U.K. public sector employer (a.k.a. a University) and have to negociate this minefield of regulations on an almost daily basis. Why the hell should some branch of the Dutch goverment feel they should be excempt is what I want to know.

  45. Don't by 4of12 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How can you ever fight bureaucrats?

    Fighting bureaucracy is like punching a marshmallow. All you'll do is wear yourself out.

    Systems of people are self-motivating however. I'd suggest giving them a scant budget based on cheaper alternatives (like zero euros for software licenses for OS, office software after, say, 2 years) Then, if they really want what they perceive as advantages of MS software, they can take it out of their own hides (no new office furniture, turn down the thermostats, re-use toilet paper, etc.).

    Oh, and a few mandates to require that public offices provide the public with information in free, standard open public formats.

    If the responsible decision-makers still believe that MS software provides cheap and standard methods for churning through the public's business, then let them prove it by living it.

    --
    "Provided by the management for your protection."