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On the Ethics of a Code Split?
McWizard asks: "We've recently had a code split at a project I'm leading. (No name given, as this is a question, not an advertisement campaign). While both projects have done some major design decisions in opposing directions, we've been keeping a close eye on the changelog of the spinoff for small changes that could be used. So, whenever we've found an interesting piece of code (mostly GUI stuff, nothing longer than 20 lines of code), we transferred it to our project and gave credit to the spinoff team in the changelog.
What does Slashdot say on that matter? Is this unethical or are such things fair game?"
"Yesterday, I was contacted by the leader of the spinoff project who told me that he's quiet angry at us for doing that and that it's considered unethical and rude to copy code from the spinoff.
As both projects are under the GPL, we have an opposing opinion on that matter and we've more than once invited him to copy code from our project. Nevertheless he's thinking about obfuscating his changelog and only open the source as packages when he's doing a release, which is, as he says, his right under the GPL."
Legally, there's nothing wrong since both projects are GPL'ed (I presume).
Ethically, I don't see anything wrong with it. In the end, it's your design decisions that are going to make a difference, which is why the code split in the first place. In fact, there's no reason why both projects shouldn't take code from each other; if there are common areas where there's actually no disagreement, this will help to reduce duplication of effort.
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are you losing sleep over the matter? if not. don't worry about it and get on with the better things in life. let the weenie at the other project be a weenie.
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That is the spirit of the GPL! You are allowed to copy and use GPL code if your code is also GPL!
Weird.
The other developer obviously does not understand the GPL. Of course you can use the code, just as long as you preserved the copyright notice.
Use & share the code - thats the whole point of the GPL anyway.
My pics.
If the idiot who forked from you really wants to go closed source with it, he's going to have to change the license, and I bet most of that code was written by people on your side of the camp. I wish him lots of luck getting them to agree to license it to him under closed terms. If he just wants to close the CVS repository, or obscure the changelog, that's up to him, and the GPL permits this, but that would seriously hurt his fork, as people would be far less willing to get involved with it.
So in short, it's not at all unethical. But is it rude?
Again, I'm going to say no. It is, after all, a GPL project. You have to expect your code is going to wind up reused in other GPL projects sooner or later. That's a sign that you're writing good code. He should be flattered, not offended.
In the long term, the politics are likely going to wind up killing one or both projects, so I'd suggest you try to keep the moral high ground, as it were, and let this guy run his fork into the ground. It sounds like he's well on his way there already.
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
Yes? Then I fail to see how this is an ethical question at all. If they didn't want others using it, they wouldn't have made it available for others to use.
Never let your ego stand in the way of improving the software.
Disgruntled XFree86 developer, are we?
Real programmers can write assembly code in any language. -- Larry Wall
... die by the GPL.
You're fine. If they didnt want to share, they shouldn't have stayed with the GPL.
At least you're giving credit, which is a pile more then most bother to do.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
Isn't the whole point of Open Source to share ideas and improve everybody's work?
As long as you give credit and don't try to pass it off as your own, I don't see the problem... unless you are selling this product, in which case it's a tricky situation. Maybe take the idea and give credit but rewrite the code your own way?
If you shared code originally, what's wrong with sharing it now?
He's a twit. How did he get his code base in the first place? By copying it, under GPL, from a community of people who wrote it and released it.
They didn't have veto power over others using their code and neither does he.
If it's unethical to legally bring in code from the spinoff project with full credit given and the license terms followed, then how could it have been ethical for them to legally take your code base and spin it off within the terms of the license?
I see both as being perfectly fine, but if they're going to get angry about it, that's just hypocracy on their part. (At least that's what it looks like without reading their side of the story.)
Can you imagine human history without being able to use other people's good ideas? I mean even if it's not derived? "I'm sorry, you can't have that steam train - I represent the estate of the ancient greeks, and we have a patent on the steam engine."
Having said all that, accreditation is nice - aknowledge the work that people have done, it's cool that you are doing this. This is what polite people in academia do - just recognise the derivation of the idea, then use it with what you're doing.
T
Oh, that already happened.
If you have a good reason, just split the code - emacs survived it, XFree86 survived it.
Arguably, it might have been more polically aware to ask permission before using the code, but I'd say the more serious problem is that the leader of the spinoff doesn't appear to fully understand the concept of the GPL. Anybody can take a project and expand on it. That code can, in turn, be added to any other project. It's all about sharing and showing your stuff, so someone using your code should be taken as a compliment, not theft.
Maybe you could try and talk to him and ask why this is a problem; perhaps it's a matter that can be settled. In any case I wouldn't borrow any more of their code until the matter is cleared up since that would only escalate the feud.
===== Murphy's Law is recursive. =====
Is it ethical? Hell, yes! The whole idea of Open Source is to produce the best damn code possible. If it weren't, there'd be no point. It'd just be an ego-trip and flag-waving exhibition. Sure, some projects are just that, and some developers are only concerned with themselves. Such projects and such people rarely last, either in open or closed-source environments. When all you can see is yourself, you're obstructing the view of any goal you might want to reach.
You cut bits out & give them credit. They do the same with what you produce. In the end, the fork will either produce two completely different products that were initially entangled, or will re-merge when it's finally understood that the different people were viewing the same problem, only from different viewpoints and/or with a focus on some specific part of it.
For what it's worth, I say go for it. The other person has neither ethical nor legal ground to stand on, if it's GPL, LGPL or BSD.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I've seen this happen in pretty important chunks of code - even gcc - which is pretty sad.
As a maintainer for a file system, I try to treat people as "customers". Sure, unless they're paying, they don't have any legal rights, but there is still some moral obligation to serve. I try to add the features that people want without breaking the design goals etc. I'm sure this is easier with a file system which is very deeply buried than with a userpsace program where everybody has a beef about itty-bitty features.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
If anyone is being unethical it is the other party for trying to browbeat into place additional restrictions on top of the GPL
Open Source and Free Software work so well because no matter what differing motivations and desires different people have we all can all come together with a given licence as a basis for a sort of social contract.
If a party is trying to restrict what the licence in question normally allows then it is they that is being unethical.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Furthermore you have the issue here hypocracy. Obviously one branch seems to think it is OK for them to use a common codebase developed by the other side, but not OK for the other side to do the same thing.
If the guy doesn;t want to allow you to use his code, he shouldn't have used your code in the first place. What strikes me as particularly unethical here is that he used the common code base but did not want to return the favor, despite the fact that this use was dependent on such permission (the GPL). So in the end, this guy (the one who doesn't want to share his code) is essentially stealing by his own account and by his own standards. This is unethical by any reasonable standard.
Again I think it is appropriate to use whatever code you want provided that you have legal permission to do so. I don't see any ethical issues because reciprocity exists.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
McWizard in the red corner with Megameknet/Megamek:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/megameknet/
and in the blue corner urgru with mekwars:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/mekwars/
Is this what its all about?
This is laid out in the open source definition, of which the GPL fits, which explicitly forbids obfuscated source.
Whether and how this applies to changelogs is another matter, since those could be interpreted as not being part of the source.
However, if the changelog is important for understanding the source, then I would interpret the GPL as regarding the changelog as part of the source code for the project, and therefore subject to the redistribution clause of the GPL.
personally, I'll admit to being a bit of a nazi with code I've written...the reason has nothing to do with ego...it's because I'm sick of someone jumping into my code without consulting me, not truly understanding the reasons behind decisions I made, changing things and generally f#$%ing it all up...then, when the boss is looking for someone's ass to kick they're no where to be found or, when they are found, their response is "oh, thats name withhelds code".
You could argue that I could blame those changes on the developer who checked them in, pull cvs logs etc etc...but when you're dealing with non technical bosses, you just look like you're trying to pass the buck, and they certainly don't understand the difference between lines 20-25 two days ago vs 25-29 now and why that broke things.
So, code nazi-ism can be a self preservation method as well as being ego driven.
Say to him "No, rude would be if I told you to go get stuffed, like I'm about to do." You are using the code in a manner that isn't just permmited by the license, it's intended by the license.
I'm sick and tired of these fairweather open source developers. They're all for it when it means they can get a jumpstart on their project using freely available code and not have to ask permission. They're all for it when it means they look at what others have done for inspiration. They're all for it when it means they can attract more developers with the promise that their code won't be locked away to wither and rot so long as someone, anyone is interested in it. But once someone starts using it in a manner they don't approve of, they're up in arms.
Hey, that's the GPL. If it's all his code, he can stop releasing it under the GPL and use a more restrictive license. Otherwise, tell that arrogant bastard he needs to look down on all the GPL shoulders he's standing on and rethink his position.
yeah, he has used reverse psychology on all of us to get us to go check out and play his mech board game now that we are all ready to get some practice in before the mech from alaska takes over.
My two step plan for dealing with the problem.
Step 1:
Politely and calmly explain it to him that as both code bases are GPL'd it's perfectly legal to do what you're doing. Also point out that he's benefitted from this arrangement by not having to recode everything to get the spin-off off the ground and doing what he's planning on doing will harm the spin-off.
Step 2:
If step 1 doesn't solve the problem then tell him to go fuck himself and use the code anyway.
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.
of course everyone here thinks picking code out of the split is a good idea. but... let's consider the flip side for a moment:
why did the code base split in the first place? obviously, because a group of developers in the team felt they had a better vision or method or whatever than the team leads. a code split is only a last resort, so we can probably assume that the developers who went on to form the split put a lot of effort into trying to get their ideas into the original source tree and were unsuccessful.
so, now that the split team has got a project up and running and is writing new code that embodies their vision of the project, they find that the original team who probably rejected at least some of the split team's ideas before the split is now suitably impressed with the results to roll them into the original source tree.
the question the split team may be asking themselves right now is this: if our ideas and code are so hot, why didn't you pay attention to them originally? and, furthermore, if the original team is so impressed with the features of the split project, why don't they put their effort into working on the split instead of the first source tree?
not meant to be flamebait: just trying to consider the motivations and rationales of the split team since no member of that team was given the opportunity to present their opinions or views in the original post.
2 1337 4 u!
On a personal and social footing, however, if you've got an angry 'contributor' then you've got a problem on your hands. If it gets to the point where he's obfuscating his change logs, it's going to hurt his project and the bad blood can't do you any good.
I'm guessing that he's upset about something else to do with the split (i.e. he may feel seriously unacknowledged for the work that he put into the project pre-split or dissed as a side-effect or something like that), and seeing 'his' code being 'lifted' into your fork is just re-opening old wounds for him.
I think you're gonna have to do something to diagnose and heal that old wound, or the whole thing's just gonna end up an infected stinky mess.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
I'd suggest replying to the guy with a limerick:
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
There was a second paragraph in the original post... "Yesterday, I was contacted by the leader of the spinoff project who told me that he's quiet angry at us for doing that and that it's considered unethical and rude to copy code from the spinoff. As both projects are under the GPL, we have an opposing opinion on that matter and we've more than once invited him to copy code from our project. Nevertheless he's thinking about obfuscating his changelog and only open the source as packages when he's doing a release, which is, as he says, his right under the GPL." So, yeah, I'd say there was a gripe.