Green Security Clearance Laser Pistol Available

nazgul000 writes "You thought those green laser pointers sold by ThinkGeek and others were pretty cool, didn't you? Well, think again." It seems obligatory to point out that even laser pointers, and certainly anything more powerful than those, are capable of causing real damage.

Comments

way different lasers

[ack154]

Ok... let's compare.

Lasershoppe.com Laser: >100mW (one tested was 191!)
Thinkgeek.com Laser: 5mW

Yes... there is a 20x difference in power here (about 38x with the tested one). While lasers in general can be harmful, the one this guy is selling should really be considered a weapon.

Also worth noting about the lasershoppe one: "this laser is not legal to use in public."

Re:way different lasers

[BWJones]

Mod parent up.

Look. Many things can be made into weapons. In the case of lasers, it is never good to be looking into a laser beam of any wattage especially as the damage to your retina (likely the retinal pigment epithelium initially) may go undetected for years, but could establish a starting off point for macular degeneration. But like the parent said, pump it up 20X in power and you are starting to be able to cause some real damage immediately.

Re:way different lasers

[BWJones]

Well, retinal degenerative diseases and remodeling is my forte, but I do recall that red lasers in the 3-5Mw range should cause no retinal damage per se. I qualify that because the long term studies have not been done, only short term studies to my knowledge. The thing you have to remember is that lasers are coherent light that "packs" much more energy into their beam than does say a 200 watt halogen lamp which throws its energy all over the place wasting about 90% of its energy as light. So, as I recall the threshold for damage is 10Xs the acceptable wattage for lasers assuming that people will guard by blinking when exposed to a bright light. (blink time being somewhere about 2/10ths of a second). So, the currently accepted wattage figures on the threshold of immediate tissue damage are in the 30-50Mw range. But you have to remember that the criteria are somewhat vague and no long term studies (to my knowledge) have been done as to the effects on the retina and RPE of brief exposures to low wattage laser light. I might suspect that you could increase your chances for having dry macular degeneration, but that is hazarding a guess.....Regardless, a good rule of thumb is to never stare into a bright light source. (oh, and always invest in good quality sunglasses).

Re:way different lasers

[evilviper]

Isn't there some minimal power below which you can blink faster than the laser can deposit enough energy to damage the retina?

This is exactly how lasers are classified.

You are refering to a Class II laser. It has the potential to cause damage to your eyes, but it is low enough power (and in the visible light range) so your blinking reflex will protect your eyes. Though, like looking into the sun, people can fight that reflex (usually children) and blind themselves.

Class III lasers are the most dangerous ones, resulting in instant damage. I believe most if not all laser pointers are class 3 devices.

Class I lasers are so low powered that you can look directly into them for a long period of time, and not cause any damage at all, as a result.

Re:way different lasers

[khrtt]

The actual Class IIIa standard allows up to 5mW CW output, with higher allowed peak power for pulsed lasers. The allowed peak power grows as 4th degree root of duty cycle, and decreases as 4th degree root of rep. rate. Or something like that. They assume blinking time of 1/4 second, and the formula gives 5mW with 4 rep/sec pulse rate and 100% duty cycle.

Re:way different lasers

[Ann Elk]

100mW? Ha!

Re:way different lasers

[Kaboom13]

There was a case here in Florida where a young teenager pointed a laser pointer at a cop at night and the cop shot and killed him. The cop was cleared of the killing, as the situation gave the cop reasonable belief he was in danger. I couldn't find the article with a quick search as it was many years ago, but I did find this http://www.thebackup.com/archives_newsdetail.asp?i d=-1141952145 which is about a similiar case where the officer wounded a teenager in the thigh. Pointing a laser pointer at a cop is a serious threat to that cop, and if the situation is already tense might get you shot.

Re:way different lasers

[jstott]

Class III lasers are the most dangerous ones, resulting in instant damage. I believe most if not all laser pointers are class 3 devices.

Class III means the laser is an eye hazard. Class IIIa are hazardous if focused, class IIIb are focused as-is. There are also class IV lasers, which are burn hazards (I've worked with both) and are more dangerous than class III lasers. Most laser pointers are class IIIb, although I've seen lower. Note too that laser classification is based on power at the output, not at the source.

"Instant damage" is a bit over-stated, but class IIIb lasers (especially at the >100mW levels in the original article) are most definitely capable of causing retinal damage.

-JS

Re:way different lasers

[passthecrackpipe]

That would be Class IV lasers that are the most dangerous. I have worked with with many class IV laser on account of having run an entertainment laser show outfit for some time. I do believe the article linked to (the FAQ from the Sam bloke) is a bit hysterical though. I used to get guys over from Coherent to get the core optics a proper cleaning, and they always used to freak out about the fact we didn't have goggles. Although I have quite a few burn scars on the side of my arms from working on live optics tables in crammed conditions, neither me, nor anyone I know of, have ever had any eye issues. I did have some cowboys work with me a few times, but they usually get asked to leave real quick. When you work with 10, 15 or 20 Watt argon/krypton tubes you have got to simply take care of what you are doing. In the conditions we worked in (sometimes hoisting the bloody things into the trees), it is a general rule that if you need goggles, you are not right for the job.

Re:way different lasers

[PurpleFloyd]

Not quite. As referenced in the Laser FAQ (linked from the article), laser classifications are as follows:

• Class I. Totally enclosed within some other device, with safety interlocks to prevent the laser from powering up when safety covers are off. Interestingly, even a really dangerous Class IV laser falls into this category if it is completely contained within an OEM device with the apppropriate safety interlocks.
• Class II. Reasonably safe to look directly into the beam. I think that the threshold is 1000 seconds continious exposure without permanant eye damage, although I could be wrong.
• Class IIIa. Lasers which would cause near-immediate damage to eye tissue, but which are blocked in time to prevent damage by the blink reflex. This is the category of most laser pointers, although probably not the monster which is sold at the linked site.
• Class IIIb. These are lasers which can cause permanant eye damage before the blink reflex kicks in. This is where lasers start getting Dangerous with a capital D.
• Class IV. Dangerous to look at the reflection of the beam, even from matte surfaces. Can cause damage to flesh or other objects in the beam path. Eye exposure will probably cause immediate and permanant blindness with lasers in this class. Very dangerous stuff.

Re:way different lasers

[NormalVisual]

Putting the lasers in the trees is one thing, but in the course of working several years for a large laser integration company that dealt with everything from 5 watt green YAGs to 5 kilowatt CO2s, I learned that it's really a good idea to have goggles anytime you're going to be exposed to *any* high-power (i.e. more than 10 mw or so) system - you just don't know when you're going to have a stray reflection that catches you in the eyes or when some idiot working on something fails to put a proper backstop up or disables the shutter and fires a beam at eye level across the work area. While you can see Ar/Kr/HeNe beams pretty easily, it really sucks for IR and UV lasers - your vision gets damaged before you even know you took a beam in the eyes. Near-IR units are *really* bad about that - a CO2 will burn your cornea and hurt like hell, but at least it can be fixed in a lot of cases. A YAG will burn your retina beyond repair and you won't feel a thing until it's too late, and even the green and UV YAGs will still have a pretty substantial IR component unless they're filtered, which I've never seen on a Class IV YAG.

Re:What's a green security clearance?

[hyphz]

It's a joke based on an old classic RPG called Paranoia.

Security codes were assigned based on the UV spectrum, with Infrared being the lowest, and Ultraviolet the highest. The clothing and similar worn by people had to match their colour (or Black for IR and White for UV).

Lasers were the standard weapon in the game, and were coded according to the clearance of the firer. Reflective armor, protecting against lasers, was also coded by colour and couldn't protect against any laser of a shorter wavelength - so people had no protection of those of higher clearence than themselves.

Re:Its all fun and games.....

[SnapShot]

Some ignorant fucker accused me of being a troll... Here's the patent, my dear friend.

United States Patent 5,443,036
Amiss , et al. August 22, 1995
Method of exercising a cat

Abstract

A method for inducing cats to exercise consists of directing a beam of invisible light produced by a hand-held laser apparatus onto the floor or wall or other opaque surface in the vicinity of the cat, then moving the laser so as to cause the bright pattern of light to move in an irregular way fascinating to cats, and to any other animal with a chase instinct.

It looks like they've gotten more sophisticated.

United States Patent 6,651,591
Chelen November 25, 2003

A pet toy and exerciser which produces an automatically movable, outwardly projected laser beam. The function thereof is to provide virtual "prey" for the stimulation and exercise of an animal. The device, which does not include a conventional motor, is small (e.g., can be handheld), lightweight, battery operated and silent, and has an extremely long potential cycle life. Electrically energized nitinol wires deflect a visible laser module to produce a virtual laser light target moved through three dimensions.

Re:What's a green security clearance?

[Allen Varney]

Anyone care to explain the color codes of security clearances?

The headline refers to the tabletop paper-and-pencil roleplaying game PARANOIA, originally published in 1984 by West End Games (New York City) and recently republished as PARANOIA XP by Mongoose Publishing (Swindon, UK).

PARANOIA is a satirical science fiction RPG set in an underground city, Alpha Complex, ruled by an insane Computer. The Computer has imposed an unbreakable system of security clearances that represent how much it trusts a given citizen. The security clearances are keyed to the colors of the spectrum. The lowest security clearance is INFRARED, meaning The Computer doesn't trust you at all; INFRARED citizens wear black. RED Clearances is the next highest, followed by ORANGE, YELLOW, and so on up to VIOLET. Above VIOLET Clerance are the illustrious High Programmers, the ULTRAVIOLETs, who can program The Computer itself. High Programmers wear white.

PARANOIA sold over 150,000 copies in its first couple of editions, and the new "XP" edition has been well received. You can find out a lot more about PARANOIA at the fan site Paranoia-Live.net, and follow the progress of the game on the PARANOIA development blog.

Now here's a real laser -

[slusich]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&cate gory=25278&item=3862662804&rd=1

Let's see what that does to a paper cup.

Re:One question...

[Marxist Hacker 42]

According to the cache of the website on google- their primary REAL use seems to be for amateur astronomers pointing out details in the night sky (at 100mw, this laser is strong enough to oxidize nitrogen, and thus you can see the beam in the air for quite some distance).

Re:Obscure RPG Ref

[Mr. Competence]

Citizen, you have revealed too much.
Go here or here for re-education.
Remember, the Computer is your friend.

Re:Could this be used as a soldering tool?

[human bean]

Sure. You just have to focus it finely enough. Chip vias and leads are often soldered or cut with just five milliwatts worth of laser light, but they are focused down to dots of less than a thousandth of an inch or so in size.

A decent soldering iron is only about fifteen watts, and you lose most of that to the surroundings rather than the work.

Re:Coming Soon: Laser TV

[joeyjoejo1200]

Actually in professional laser shows they use a white laser fired through a special crystal that will change the color of the laser when bombarded with an RF wave www.neostech.com (variable prism). It actually can create 281,474,976,710,656 different colors 6 different colors: red green blue near infrared near ultraviolet and this very odd green color The only issue to overcome is the scan rate and high enough bandwidth to the neos and scanners.

laser classes

[SuperBanana]

But like the parent said, pump it up 20X in power and you are starting to be able to cause some real damage immediately.

The classifications are based upon wattage levels which will cause damage to the eye before your brain reacts AND the eyelid closes.

Anything over a certain class (II or III, I forget which) falls into the 'damage will happen before you blink" category. That's why they usually require a keylock on a shutter or output control, a lasing indicator light, etc. OSHA regs then mesh in with this- lasers in operation over a certain level mean guards on equipment, goggles for anyone in the room, blah blah.

Over a certain level in mW also requires approval from the FAA to use outdoors [at night] as it could blind pilots. Sounds silly for a single point source, but it's intended for laser light shows where hundreds or thousands of beams- which often sweep/scan out into the sky- stand an excellent chance of blinding a pilot.

Pretty much all the FAA does is say "sure" and then put out a NOTAM (NOtice to AirMen) saying "there be lasers here". NOTAMs are automatically pulled up if your flight plan crosses through the area the NOTAM applies to.

Laser TV already here...[caveat]

[Venner]

...just not mass produced or affordable.

I'm really hoping there is a push to market for these things. Sony has exclusive rights to the technology, developed by Silicon Light Machines. I've read anecdotal accounts from people who've seen the technology demoed that the images were amazingly crisp and vivid.

This link for a little blurb & small picture

This link for an abstract & link to a semi-technical pdf

Kodak just introduced a similar, competing system, as you can read here. Maybe that will drive the pricepoint down...if the demand exists.

I know I want one.

Illegal in public ? not with a CDRH variance

[Anonymous Coward]

All you need to do is apply for a variance from the CDRH http://www.jklasers.com/Variance/CDRH_Variance_Inf o.htm

I used to work for a company in Cleveland that did laser light shows and built laser light show equipment. we had to get a variance for the shows but it really wasn't that big a deal.

Did anyone here attend the opening of the Skydome in Toronto ? It was our equipment in the CN tower that "coned the dome" and it was not a mere 100mw Laser it was a 20Watt Argon Ion Laser.. you want to see a laser do damage at close range that thing would ignite a 2x4 instantly upon the beam touching the wood. not to mention it hurt like hell when you got your hand in front of the beam while making adjustments..

the 600 Pound Power supply roughly 3'x3' and 200 Pound Laser head approx 8 feet long from Coherent coupled with the large water requirements for cooling the whole apparatus significantly reduced the mobility of the device for use as any sort of weapon though...

It was still a lot of fun to work with.. especially when you mixed the 20Watt Argon Ion beam (green and blue spectrum) with the 7 Watt Krypton Beam ( RED ) to get the full spectrum or pretty close to it anyway.. big fun back in 86-90 for me.

Hrm what did Dr. G refer to the laser as.. A Massless vector boson generator if I recall.

Re:FDA approved...

[j_kenpo]

No, hes right, it is the FDA. The Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH) are part of the FDA. They are the bastards who will pull the plug on public laser shows if they do things like scan the crowd (which is legal in Europe), have laser set-ups that do not have a safety kill switch, have scatter beams from using lasers with AOM crystals, etc..

More information about them is at http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/

You may even find interesting info on the from the International Laser Display Association (ILDA). Im sure some of those guys can tell you about their experiences with them.

a link to the video...

[Satcho]

here's a link to the site with pictures, and a link to the video

Here is the diode if you want to build your own

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to this webpage you can order the diode for $20 if you feel like making your own.
http://www.amazing1.com/laser3.htm

Laser as a Weapon.

[JollyFinn]

There is some geneva convention or something similar international agreament that blinding lasers are banned as military weapons. So the end result for laser warfare is that they make a STRONG laser intended to burn through tank, and the reflections from the tank that hit eye will have blinding result, but thats not the lasers MAIN purpose, an equipment destruction lasers are allowed in the agreament. BTW: If someone uses missile defense lasers near your city, then you should have strong curtains just to make sure that any weak reflections wouldn't pass inside your house. And blind someone.

Re:Are these really stories?

[gad_zuki!]

Actually slashdot linked to the coral cache of his page:

http://64.252.62.40.nyud.net:8090/lasershoppe/in de x.htm

See the nyud.net:8090 in there? Smart move. Hopefully submitters will be doing this more often.