Posted by
timothy
on from the absence-of-evidence dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Severalnewsoutlets are reporting that the United States has officially ended the The Iraq Survey Group's search for WMDs. Prior to the war, WMDs were named as a justification for a 'preemptive' invasion."
Surprising some were not faked
by
justanyone
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
It has surprised me that WMD were not faked by CIA / DIA / etc. (insert random agency name here). Getting a hold of some generic sarin, anthrax, botulinin, chlorine gas, etc. would be easy for any U.S. agency determined to do so. Placing it in a couple of buried shipping containers in the desert that we 'accidentally' discovered the location to would have been very easy.
The fact that this was not done says to me: * maybe some was found but they can't talk about it (doubtful); * most of the people in the U.S. armed forces are basically ethical (encouraging); * no one thought of faking it (highly doubtful); * there are too many checks and balances within the agency structures to allow a fake to succeed (highly likely).
The checks-balances scenario is this: CIA decides to fake it. 1. They create the agent/material, bury it, fake up docs, release info about it, "find" it, make news. 2. FBI decides, Hey, let's test it and figure out where it really came from and how it was made. 3. UN / Brits request samples to test, start interviewing all their people about the subject and get nothing or actual denials. 4. FBI figures out this isn't genuine and points fingers, or: 5. ATF decides to test it independently, or: 6. Secret service / Treasury tests it independently, or: 7. GAO / Congressional subcommittee asks lots of questions, or: 8. UN figures it out, points fingers, or: 9. Iraq former-regime muckety-mucks say, "hey, wait, we didn't do that... it's cool, but we didn't do it."
Just some thoughts. I like having multiple levels of power structures all competing for the truth. The whole CIA reorg bill concentrates power too much in my opinion. It'll allow for this kind of potential fakery to succeed.
Re:Well DUH!
by
superpulpsicle
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
When Tom Brokaw and Dan Rather, two of the more well influential journalists quit in the middle of a war, that's no coincidence. We obviously have alot of things to hide.
Just count 20 years from now, and all of us Americans will be as shocked as the Germans citizens who discovered the prisoner camp mistreatments for the first time.
And the UN inspectors went back in during 2003 and couldn't find anything. Then America invaded, kicked UN inspectors out and rolled its own inspectors. They couldn't find anything as well. So, what was your point? The fact that wherever and how hard they looked and searched, since they didn't exist, they couldn't be found. The problem is, you can't prove a negative statement. Damn logics.
Re:The ends
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 1, Interesting
You're fucking view of reality is flawed! The united states has killed over 100,000 iraqis in the last year, how the fuck is this not large-scale violence against Iraqi citizens?
and this time the us troops are in country. without saddam. how can you type over the fucking cognitive dissonance in your head?
let me get this straight: saddam killing iraqis=bad us killing iraqis=good!!!
No, I'm the last person on Slashdot who would support W.
You are quite correct, that employment is actually increasing. The quality of those jobs relative to the jobs that were lost during the recession I do not know, though I've read that many people switching jobs have ended up taking significant cuts in pay and/or benefits. There are a lot of new jobs that have to be created to employ new people entering the workforce, something like 150k/month.
Also, to be fair, a President has less impact on the day-to-day economy than is typically thought. Longer term is a different story and I have grave reservations about the trends in the fiscal deficit and the tax policy and spending that includes US$4.5e9/month in Iraq.
Finally, it is true that employment figures during 2004 showed some growth due to government hiring, which is ironic considering the GOP stance against big government.
Many of my fellow Americans - bless them - they're really good people at heart - prefer to live in a myth and to listen to people that help maintain that mythology. They want to be part of a story where they play the good guys and they defeat the bad guys and it's easy to tell the two apart. The power of a delusion is strong and, unfortunately, conditions will have to get a lot worse before the cognitive dissonance creates a willingness to re-examine the facts. It's a shame, I'd rather people not have to learn such hard lessons from experience of hardship that I see coming like a train down the tracks.
-- "Provided by the management for your protection."
Re:Well DUH!
by
superpulpsicle
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Like I said, wait 20 years. The gassing and incinerating was not public knowledge until years after Allies troops invaded German territory. At the time of the war, nazi mistreatment was not on your daily newspaper covers.
Vice versa, cheerleader posing is about the only thing acceptable enough to broadcast. Since it won't hurt Bush's chance of getting back in the office.
Re:consequences
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 1, Interesting
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it"
-- Adolf Hitler
"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think"
-- Adolf Hitler
Yes, I know about Godwin's law. But these quotes are way too appropriate.
Slashdot Mirror
It has surprised me that WMD were not faked by CIA / DIA / etc. (insert random agency name here). Getting a hold of some generic sarin, anthrax, botulinin, chlorine gas, etc. would be easy for any U.S. agency determined to do so. Placing it in a couple of buried shipping containers in the desert that we 'accidentally' discovered the location to would have been very easy.
The fact that this was not done says to me:
* maybe some was found but they can't talk about it (doubtful);
* most of the people in the U.S. armed forces are basically ethical (encouraging);
* no one thought of faking it (highly doubtful);
* there are too many checks and balances within the agency structures to allow a fake to succeed (highly likely).
The checks-balances scenario is this: CIA decides to fake it.
1. They create the agent/material, bury it, fake up docs, release info about it, "find" it, make news.
2. FBI decides, Hey, let's test it and figure out where it really came from and how it was made.
3. UN / Brits request samples to test, start interviewing all their people about the subject and get nothing or actual denials.
4. FBI figures out this isn't genuine and points fingers, or:
5. ATF decides to test it independently, or:
6. Secret service / Treasury tests it independently, or:
7. GAO / Congressional subcommittee asks lots of questions, or:
8. UN figures it out, points fingers, or:
9. Iraq former-regime muckety-mucks say, "hey, wait, we didn't do that... it's cool, but we didn't do it."
Just some thoughts.
I like having multiple levels of power structures all competing for the truth. The whole CIA reorg bill concentrates power too much in my opinion. It'll allow for this kind of potential fakery to succeed.
-- Kevin
Unitarian Church: Freethinkers Congregate!
When Tom Brokaw and Dan Rather, two of the more well influential journalists quit in the middle of a war, that's no coincidence. We obviously have alot of things to hide.
Just count 20 years from now, and all of us Americans will be as shocked as the Germans citizens who discovered the prisoner camp mistreatments for the first time.
And the UN inspectors went back in during 2003 and couldn't find anything. Then America invaded, kicked UN inspectors out and rolled its own inspectors. They couldn't find anything as well. So, what was your point? The fact that wherever and how hard they looked and searched, since they didn't exist, they couldn't be found. The problem is, you can't prove a negative statement. Damn logics.
You're fucking view of reality is flawed! The united states has killed over 100,000 iraqis in the last year, how the fuck is this not large-scale violence against Iraqi citizens?
and this time the us troops are in country. without saddam. how can you type over the fucking cognitive dissonance in your head?
let me get this straight:
saddam killing iraqis=bad
us killing iraqis=good!!!
your a fucking self-delusional mental midget.
I'd also point out that we had between 10-50 million illegal immigrants come in during that time- most of which were of working age.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
No, I'm the last person on Slashdot who would support W.
You are quite correct, that employment is actually increasing. The quality of those jobs relative to the jobs that were lost during the recession I do not know, though I've read that many people switching jobs have ended up taking significant cuts in pay and/or benefits. There are a lot of new jobs that have to be created to employ new people entering the workforce, something like 150k/month.
Also, to be fair, a President has less impact on the day-to-day economy than is typically thought. Longer term is a different story and I have grave reservations about the trends in the fiscal deficit and the tax policy and spending that includes US$4.5e9/month in Iraq.
Finally, it is true that employment figures during 2004 showed some growth due to government hiring, which is ironic considering the GOP stance against big government.
Many of my fellow Americans - bless them - they're really good people at heart - prefer to live in a myth and to listen to people that help maintain that mythology. They want to be part of a story where they play the good guys and they defeat the bad guys and it's easy to tell the two apart. The power of a delusion is strong and, unfortunately, conditions will have to get a lot worse before the cognitive dissonance creates a willingness to re-examine the facts. It's a shame, I'd rather people not have to learn such hard lessons from experience of hardship that I see coming like a train down the tracks.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Like I said, wait 20 years. The gassing and incinerating was not public knowledge until years after Allies troops invaded German territory. At the time of the war, nazi mistreatment was not on your daily newspaper covers.
Vice versa, cheerleader posing is about the only thing acceptable enough to broadcast. Since it won't hurt Bush's chance of getting back in the office.
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it"
-- Adolf Hitler
"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think"
-- Adolf Hitler
Yes, I know about Godwin's law. But these quotes are way too appropriate.