U.S. DOT Launches Laser Illumination Reporting

Unloaded writes "The U.S. Department of Transportation announced a new laser warning and reporting system for pilots . The FAA has it's own guidelines for reporting laser illumination." This is a follow up on stories reported earlier.

Comments

Drat!

[irokitt]

It would appear that my army of sharks with frickin' laser beams on their foreheads is no longer feasible.

This makes me sad.

How long has this been happening?

[Jerk City Troll]

I was listening to the news (NRP) this morning and the reporter explained how this was a "sudden rash" of activity. But is that really the case? It seems to me that this has been happening for a long time. Laser pointers have been available to the general public for quite some time now. We are supposed to believe that people only got it into their heads to start aiming them at planes and other interesting targets within the past few months?

Re:How long has this been happening?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

More a matter of strength- 100mw lasers have only gotten cheap in the last couple of months, most laser pointers are only 5mw and would be far too dim to do any damage (as it is, your average 5mw laser has to be held on the pupil for 30 seconds to do any damage. I don't know about you, but my hands shake too much to hold on a stationary target that small at 100 feet, let alone a pilot's eyeball on a jetliner moving past me at 100 MPH).

Re:How long has this been happening?

[mpathetiq]

TFA say there have been 400+ reported incidents since 1990. 31 of these happened since Dec. 23rd. That seems to be a sudden rash!

Re:How long has this been happening?

[spungebob]

We are supposed to believe that people only got it into their heads to start aiming them at planes and other interesting targets within the past few months?

I would say "yes"... not because this hasn't been happening for a long time now, but because the media has finally gotten around to telling the story - and of course they have to tell EVERYONE about it so yes, they're the ones who are now putting the idea into the heads of TONS of goobers who'd never thought of it before. It's your typical self-fulfilling media-fed frenzy where they're reporting on a "sudden rash" that they themselves have helped to create.

Re:How long has this been happening?

[drooling-dog]

But is that really the case?

This entire issue seems a little fishy to me. Laser pointers are not very powerful (as someone else here pointed out), and the accuracy and stability with which someone on the ground would have to hold it in order to keep the (weak and highly diverged) spot on a pilot's retina (in a moving aircraft, no less) for any length of time is very hard to imagine.

But then, I can't think of a reason why the Powers That Be would want to hype the threat, unless a ban on laser pointers was coming for some unrelated and unpublicized reason. Or, perhaps, just to maintain the general level of terror hysteria here in the U.S..

Re:How long has this been happening?

[Greyfox]

Try 300 mph. IIRC stall speed on a 747 is around 155MPH. Also IIRC final approach speed is about 300mph up until the last few hundred feet. It's been a while since I've been over any of that, so if we have any airline pilots who'd like to provide exact numbers, please feel free.

The upshot of that being that it should be almost impossible to target the cabin by hand prior to the last couple hundred feet, and then you'd most likely have to be standing right in front of the plane for it to do any good. I also have my doubts that any automated system available to civilians could target a plane's cabin and hold that target for any amount of time at all.

That being said, I rather doubt that the space program will miss these nimrods if we throw a few of them behind bars for a few years. At the very least, that should put the kibosh on the public hysteria and perhaps make the rest of the nimrods out there reconsider their choice of laser targets in the future.

Re:How long has this been happening?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

That makes sense. My original comment came from a foolish period in my younger days when I had a very nice Mazda Miata for a rental, I had just come off a marathon coding session in Las Vegas, and was headed for the strip at 2:00am passing the airport. I decided to clock a landing jet- and it came in at just about 100MPH. No, I don't remember what the jet was- for all I remember it might have been a small gulfstream, not a passenger plane at all.

OTOH- I think one would find it extremely hard to target the cockpit of any plane from the ground unless that plane was on final approach or takeoff. I still have my doubts about the reports over Oregon and Colorado that were supposed to take place at 30,000 feet.....

Re:How long has this been happening?

[samantha]

Simple.
a) Appear to be doing SOMETHING to KEEP US SAFE when actually doing worse than nothing;
b) criminalize civilians whenever possible;
c) check just how bloody gullible the public and media is.

So, please read this report..

[adeyadey]

..with the remaining eye..

Light aircraft?

[FalconZero]

I assume this is for (small) light aircraft, as anything bigger than a sopwith camel either :

• Flys above clouds (if present)
• Doesn't have a flight deck pointing towards the ground (granted they bank, light refects and low angle beams)
• Doesn't hang around if one place long enough for any ground based beam to hit someone eye for more than fractions of a second, so it doesn't matter (unless your talking about one of these)

Anyway.... how long is it before they also recommend, radar and IR detection, as well as chaff and flares for civilian planes?? or perhapse civilian stealth?? [I'd quite like to see a stealth Airbus A380]

Re:Light aircraft?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

That 100mw+ laser is EXACTLY what they're talking about- anything less just doesn't have the power to matter, and the one guy who has been arrested so far was using one of those babies.

Re:Light aircraft?

[FalconZero]

At no point does the FAA, the U.S. DOT, or the poster specify the power output, and yes, I read both before before I posted (and before the story was posted). In addition, you expect the assialant to keep a 100+mW laser on target for a significant length of time when....

Minimum Distance from Source : 500m [50,000cm](~5 seconds from impact)
Pupil Size : 1cm
Tan(Theta)=Opp/Adj
Theta=arcTan(Opp/Adj)
Theta=arcTan(1/50000)=arcTan(0.00002)
=~0.00114592 Degrees

If both the plain and the laser were absolutly still, the laser would have to be pointed with an angular precision of 0.0011 degrees. You think you can hold your hand steady to that precision? And keep it there for long enough to be a problem?? and without you or the plane moving by more than a cm???

Re:Light aircraft?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I know I can't- but the guy in the OTHER story who got arrested apparently was able to target the initial jetliner for 5 seconds and the subsequent helicopter for 10. In NEITHER account was anybody blinded though- as that would take a good deal more time. I was making an assumption that the new US DOT regulations were coming at this time (as opposed to long before now) due to the recent rash of events reported.

I'm STILL skeptical on two of the events reported- at ~10,000 m from the ground, I would think that the events over Colorado and Oregon would HAVE to be either plane-to-plane, or completely accidental discharge of an industrial laser.

Make a straight line, go to jail.

[www.sorehands.com]

Now, when you try to align something, but you overshine the target, the pilot flying 25000 feet overhead will report you to the FBI.

Re:Shield

[Gleef]

Sure, if they want the pilots to be unable to see. Lasers can be in any wavelength of the EM spectrum. There's no way to block out all lasers without blocking out all light.

Personally, I prefer the extra safety of having pilots able to look at their surroundings.

More security theater!

[Shoten]

Just what the hell is this supposed to accomplish?

"Hey, you just got a laser aimed at the cockpit!" says the computer.

"Great, what are we supposed to do, try to evade it? Somehow, re-enacting the final flight scenes of the movie Top Gun doesn't seem like such a hot idea in a Boeing 757 full of people while we're on a landing approach...and by the way, thanks for the hot tip about that brief blinding flash I just encountered. Glad to know it wasn't just my imagination," says the pilot.

Death Ray!

[MonkeyCookie]

A lot of good some puny laser warning system will do them when I start aiming my death ray at the cockpit.

Remember folks, death rays don't kill people: people kill people.

Are we going to get better radar/laser detectors

[iamacat]

as a result of development of this technology. Or did they just mount a stock one from Radio Shark on the airplane windshield?

Very helpful advice

[nizo]

If pilots have a laser pointed at them, the circular strongly advises pilots and air crew to avoid direct eye contact...

Whew, it is a good thing they included that advice. I am sure most airline pilots figured that the best way to deflect a laser is with their eyeball.

This is such bullshit

[krbvroc1]

Why can't this much effort be expended on creating a reporting and monitoring system for not loosing my luggage? Or how about for increasing on-time flight?. Or modernizing the radar systems?
Some guy in an apartment shines a laser that hits a plane and he's being treated like a terrorist. I haven't seen enough technical info that would convice me that an average laser on the ground would really be capable of causing a real problem. Perhaps outfit the pilots with $10 goggles or something.
Shoulder fired rockets are more likely to be a problem and we haven't spent the money to outfit planes with countermeasures; its cheaper to arrest people for pointing a laser and gives the appearance of being 'tough on terrorism'.

Re:This is such bullshit

[fm6]

Why can't this much effort be expended on creating a reporting and monitoring system for not loosing my luggage?

Because cleaning up a crashed airplane is a lot more hassle than finding missing luggage.

Re:This is such bullshit

[krbvroc1]

Because cleaning up a crashed airplane is a lot more hassle than finding missing luggage.

Yeah but which one occurs more often (if ever). Which one is a likely scenario? People need to put these 'problems' into context. You can't minimize life to a zero risk probability environment - its just not possible. But you should focus on things that matter.

Laser-guided Missiles

[krautcanman]

Maybe laser-guided missiles installed in the planes would be a great deterrent. Shine a laser at the plane, you get a missile at your front door...

Unless you're in China, in which case they crash an old satellite into your apartment living room: http://www.china.org.cn/english/2004/Oct/109656.ht m

Re:Laser Pointers

[ajlitt]

Laser pointers are not explicitly illegal in the USA. The FDA says it's illegal to sell equipment that emits laser radiation and hasn't had a power classification filed. Laser pointers usually come with the FDA warning sticker stating the maximum emitted power. Even CD players, which do not in normal circumstances emit beams from the case, have such a rating.

However, many states have made it illegal to point lasers at oncoming traffic, citing that it distracts drivers and becomes a safety hazard. For the same exact reason, having misaligned headlights is also illegal.

A laser used properly is just like any other potentially hazardous machine. Chainsaws have been used to commit some nasty acts, but nobody would even consider the possibility of banning or tightly regulating them just because they've got a sinister use. [insert gun control rant here]

Handy advice

[DrKyle]

from TFA:

If pilots have a laser pointed at them, the circular strongly advises pilots and air crew to avoid direct eye contact given the health and safety risks posed by some types of lasers.

Who are they getting to write these warnings, my Mom? "Don't look stray dogs in the eye or they might get mad and bite you." I would think this would be common sense, but then again, we are talking about the same people who brought you terrorist-proofing your home with duct tape.

Obligatory song...

[zx-6e]

You light up my life...

Re:Shield

[scotch]

The really dangerous lasers are infrared. Certain frequencies in the infrared do major corneal or retinal damage. This happens without the eye owner knowing that it's happening.

Re:Can anyone explain...

[YrWrstNtmr]

Have you ever hung out near an airport and watched aircraft land? On final approach, there isn't a whole lot of apparent motion, unti they get quite close. Landing is not that much nose up, until the get close to the ground. With a scope, it wouldn't be too hard to track the cockpit from a good distance off.

Add in scatter off the windshield, and eyes adjusted to night, and a couple of seconds would be enough to screw a pilots night vision, and completely distract him during a critical part of the flight. The workload for a pilot during a landing is quite enough, without throwing in "hey..I can't see the ground!"

Actually injuring/destroying the eyes is not necessary.

A pilot's perspective

[jskiff]

For those who keep saying "this isn't a big deal," or complaining about how infeasible this is, perhaps it would help to read about what actual pilots think?

Professional Pilots Rumour Network: Professional Laser injures Delta pilot's eye thread.

Re:Can anyone explain...

[t_allardyce]

They wouldnt be anything like runway landing lights would they?..

Re:How to aim at a target 1000's of feet away?

[scotch]

What matters is apparent motion. There is much less apparent motion for many jets-on-final scenarios than there was in the JFK assassination. Also, with a sufficiently powerful laser, pulsing, scanning, and essentially unlimited ammo, the threat of delivering enough energy to a pilots eye ball is quite real. Laser blinding is something the military worries about. For a few thousand dollars, some technical know-how, and a scientific or indurstrial catalog, you could put together a system that would be quite a nuisance at any airport.

IOW, your 100 mph number doesn't mean jack shit. If you want to pull numbers out of your ass and throw them around, I'd suggest starting with radial velocity, beam divergence, target jitter, angular extent of target, laser energy, pulse width, and physiological response.

That said, I think the threat is way overblown; the overhyping doesn't serve any interest except to keep the nation-of-fear tense and gullible.