Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Sony Ordered to Pay For Dual Shock Tech

Posted by Zonk on from the oh-that-was-yours? dept.

GamesIndustry.biz is reporting that a ruling against the Japanese software giant has been handed down in the case of Immersion vs. Sony. Immersion sued the company over the force feedback effect experienced in the dual-shock controller, which it has a patent on. From the article: "Now a Californian district court has ordered Sony to pay a 1.37 per cent license fee based on sales of the PlayStation console and of the named videogames, to be paid quarterly effective from July 1st."

46 comments

  1. Ditch it by BlackEyedSceva · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Anybody think they will just ditch the technology in the next Playstation?

    1. Re:Ditch it by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      no. they'll just invent a way to get around the patent somehow..

      or they'll just license(this is basically a license anyhow now..), like ms.

      anyone got some deeper info to the patent? and are you infringing only if you are seller of the pad with little motors AND seller of software that makes those little motors spin?

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    2. Re:Ditch it by tprime · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Or, because this is only a US court, Sony might decide to remove the forced-feedback component from the controllers sold in the USA while still selling them in Japan. They have split markets in the past with the Playstation and other electronics, I don't know why they wouldn't consider it in this situation.

      If this happens, the market for imported PS3 controllers will be a big one.

      --
      http://www.tomandemily.com
    3. Re:Ditch it by PyroMosh · · Score: 1

      I don't think that would work. Wouldn't the Paris convention prevent that anyway?

      --
      Touch everywhere, even when inappropriate.
    4. Re:Ditch it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now that would be lovely. No more going into menus and disabling (if they even have the possibility, most demos don't) that stupid "jerk the controller around so the stick is no longer pointing in the intended direction" feature.

  2. Does anyone know... by Heftklammerdosierer! · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Immersion holds patents for force feedback technology which cover certain aspects of the rumble effect used in game joypads

    to which aspects this refers?

    1. Re:Does anyone know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rumble pack in the ps2 controler uses this tech.

    2. Re:Does anyone know... by neura · · Score: 2, Informative

      Quote from Gamespot.Com article:

      The company holds patents for what it calls "vibro-tactile" technologies that make the video game player feel as if he is "touching" an object in the game.

      http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/09/23/news_610 82 98.html

    3. Re:Does anyone know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Rumble pack?"

      There is no "rumble pack" in the "PS2 controller." There are two variable-speed motors in all variants of the Dual Shock and Dual Shock 2 controllers.

      Funny that you use the term "rumble pack," though, since Nintendo's prior art came in the form of the "Rumble Pak" (actual marketed name = source of the term) add-on for the N64 controller. Strange how they're not included in the list of targeted companies, despite the fact that their controllers weren't and aren't branded with the Immersion licensing logo, eh? Even third-parties that manufacture controllers for the GameCube (like Mad Catz, makers of the pretty cool Microcon controllers) have that licensing label on their packaging.

  3. Hmmmmm..... by Lobo · · Score: 3, Funny

    I wonder what effect this will have on the sale of women's "Adult Toys"?

    --

    -------
    Bite Me Fanboy!!
    1. Re:Hmmmmm..... by Fr05t · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'll have you know this can also be used for men - the dual shock controllers are excellent for stimulating the prostate, or so I'm told.

    2. Re:Hmmmmm..... by Riddlefox · · Score: 5, Funny

      Wow, you received +3 Informative for telling us to shove our controllers up our asses.

    3. Re:Hmmmmm..... by euxneks · · Score: 3, Funny

      Wow, you received +3 Informative for telling us to shove our controllers up our asses.

      The mods are open-minded.

      --
      in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
    4. Re:Hmmmmm..... by musicon · · Score: 1

      Where's the -1 Too Much Information option?

    5. Re:Hmmmmm..... by superpulpsicle · · Score: 1

      Well I can't wait for the rumbling driving wheel and vibrating wireless mouse now.

    6. Re:Hmmmmm..... by Zork+the+Almighty · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Now it's up to +5. I think the trolls have a point. BTW, welcome to slashdot.

      --

      In Soviet America the banks rob you!
    7. Re:Hmmmmm..... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  4. appliable to other things? by jj110888 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    What if everyone who says Linux infringes on their patents gets a ruling that Linus must pay them a dollar for every kernel he sells? Its like nullifying the effect of software patents on F/OSS

    1. Re:appliable to other things? by Heftklammerdosierer! · · Score: 1

      I think the article said 1.37 percent, and Linus doesn't really sell kernels, does he?

    2. Re:appliable to other things? by GtKincaid · · Score: 1

      Yes im sure Linus would be terribly afraid of having to pay for all the kernels he has sold. what with the millions of linux users. each one paying a sum total of 0.00 per kernel compile so if we divide 0.00 by the several million kernels then linus would crash

  5. So... by Alkaiser · · Score: 1

    This judge is saying that 1.37% of the fun of a Playstation is linked to force feedback? I find it more annoying than anything, and I generally turn off vibration. I imagine Sony probably will just drop it...but this begs the question...aren't all the other vibration controller manufacturers then also guilty of this?

    --
    Netjak.com independent reviews of domestic & import video ga
    1. Re:So... by papadiablo · · Score: 1

      I find it more annoying than anything, and I generally turn off vibration.

      I tend to agree with you here. I don't find that it adds much to the game.

      From the article
      Immersion holds patents for force feedback technology which cover certain aspects of the rumble effect used in game joypads, and also named Microsoft as a defendant in its original lawsuit in 2002 - but the Xbox manufacturer settled out of court in July 2003 by signing a licensing agreement with the firm.

      So other vibration controller manufacturers are probably guilty, but they went after the big dogs first. The ones they can make money off of.

    2. Re:So... by tprime · · Score: 4, Informative

      xBox already settled with Immersion to the tune of $26 million

      http://news.com.com/Microsoft+settles+suit+with+Im mersion/2100-1041_3-5056455.html

      --
      http://www.tomandemily.com
    3. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I find it more annoying than anything, and I generally turn off vibration.

      It depends on how it's used. If it just shakes when something blows up, big whoop. But it can be used to communicate various things to the player better than just visual and audio cues in some cases. I can immediately come up with three games that used vibration to good effect in different ways.

      In F-Zero X for the N64, the rhythm of the pulses told you how well you were sticking to the track. Actually being able to feel the track beneath you made it easier to use slides and maintain control through difficult turns.

      In Rogue Leader for the Gamecube, there was so much green laser fire flying around that it was sometimes hard to tell whether you were actually being hit, but the controller shook every time you were. Sure, sound effects clued you in as well, but I always noticed and reacted to the shaking first, almost reflexively.

      In the Wind Waker, the opportunity for a counterattack was marked by both an icon on screen and a quick thump of the controller. I almost always nailed the timing because I felt the controller vibrate well before I noticed the icon. Plus, I never needed to actually watch for the icon, so I could concentrate on the action.

      I think the key is that the rumble should be subtle enough that you don't really think about it during gameplay any more than you think about what you see and hear. If it shakes enough for you to notice, it can only be a distraction that pulls you out of the experience.

    4. Re:So... by KDR_11k · · Score: 3, Informative

      ... and Nintendo has patented rumble before Immersion has.
      I've compared the patents the last time something relating to Immersion was posted, Immersion has patents for all kinds of variations of controllers (e.g. a controller with two analog sticks and two rumble motors as seen here, a joystick with rumble, etc) but Nintendo holds the patent for rumble with a single unit in a gamepad or something like that. Immersion's patents even reference Nintendo's patents for prior art but claim that because they cover different input devices they aren't conflicting with N's earlier patents. I'd call that a trivial step up but whatever.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    5. Re:So... by Mostly+Monkey · · Score: 1

      In addition to those examples I find it pretty useful in driving games that lack true forcefeedback. Being able to feel the tires begin to reach maximum grip in a turn seems to help me react better then just the audio would. I agree though that it's overused in some games. If they use it sporadically it packs more punch.

      --
      Chika Chik-ah... do-e ow ow.
  6. What ever happened to the rumble mouse? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Immersion adn Logitech released a mouse with rumble features. It was a failure. The lost cash on that is probably what sparked this lawsuit.

  7. License fee on particular games? by UWC · · Score: 2, Insightful
    According to the article, there were about 40 video games listed in the initial suit that purportedly violated the patents. Does anyone know what in the games violated the patents? Would it be any game that utilized the rumble feature? If that's the case, Immersion is wanting fees for not only the hardware that includes the feature, but also for software that has the audacity use features included in the hardware?

    Also, weren't there questions the last time this made Slashdot about the validity of Immersion's patents? Prior art in the N64's rumble pack or something? I don't recall. Also, did Immersion ever do anything with the idea, or just get a patent and sit around waiting for market saturation of the feature?

    --
    Honor Among Slackers. A veri
    1. Re:License fee on particular games? by j0nb0y · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's what just about everyone here said last time this was posted on /. I'd like to know if that was brought up in the trial, but the article is pretty slim on details.

      --
      If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
  8. Where is Nintendo in this? by xenocide2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Nintendo was probably the first to market with a rumble device, with the release of Star Fox 64 in 1997. The articles say the lawsuits are over force feedback, which could mean many things. The technical term would be some form of variable resistance applied to the joystick or something, but rumble features are often considered "force feedback." The PS2 has pressure sensative face buttons, which could cause one to contemplate. The Immersion website seems to promote the rumble aspect of force feedback, so clearly Nintendo could be liable.

    Immersion's gone after the other big two (sucessfully), is Nintendo next? Perhaps, but Nintendo's no slouch when it comes to patents themselves, and perhaps Immersion doesn't wish to lose their own patent viability in a court battle with Nintendo. I wonder, if the Immersion and Nintendo patents are similar, if Nintendo can sue for damages and a share of the wealth...

    --
    I Browse at +4 Flamebait

    Open Source Sysadmin

    1. Re:Where is Nintendo in this? by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Informative

      Immersion's patents are a trivial step up from Nintendo's rumble patents by referencing different controller types and claiming that's enough to differentiate themselves from N's prior art. In other words Immersion's patents specifically exempt Nintendo as Nintendo was there first and trying to lay claim on N's rumble would invalidate Immersion's patents as N held the patent first.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:Where is Nintendo in this? by Headcase88 · · Score: 1

      Heh heh, I wonder if Nintendo could, in turn, sue Immersion for sueing Sony and Microsoft over something that's really feels like it's more oriented towards Nintendo's patents?

      Probably not, but it'd be good because they'd effectively be taking Sony's money.

      --
      "When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
  9. How Much? by wev162 · · Score: 1

    What the heck is a "1.37 per cent license fee"? Is that 1.37 cents per console/controller sold or a typo and 1.37 percent of some unspecified number?

    1. Re:How Much? by Headcase88 · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's 1.37%, so for every $100 Sony makes off of the stuff they're getting sued over, they must hand over 1 dollar and 37 cents to Immersion.

      According the article, this is about $27 million a year.

      --
      "When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
  10. Re:So... - Another example of it being used by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the Silent Hill games they use the rumble to indicate current health.
    When you're at full health there is no shaking, as your health go down the shaking gets progressively more noticable. Nice way of indicating the health without taking up screen real-estate.
    Without it in fights you would have to pause to see your current health, or take the chance that you are in good standing.

  11. Immersion patents by xgamer04 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I dug up these three patents that Immersion Corp apparently holds: 6,366,273 6,271,833 6,184,868.

    I think that something this simple really shouldn't be given a patent. But since it has, I think I'll patent "audio notification of consumable liquid boiling point" and charge all tea kettle manufacturers exorbitant licensing fees :P

    PS: This is not a seriously researched opinion, IANAL, etc.

    --
    When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
    1. Re:Immersion patents by cgenman · · Score: 2, Informative

      In simpler terms, patent 1 is a vibrating joystick, patent 2 is a force-feedback joystick (over 2 busses, yadda yadda), patent 3 I think it a vibrating joystick but it could be describing a really excited bug.

      In other words, yes, it is a bogus patent.

      --
      The ______ Agenda
    2. Re:Immersion patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay, they say capitalism wouldnt work without patents. However, they also say capitalism wouldnt work without free competition.

      Now how do these two fit together?

      . .. ...

      Oh, now I get it.

    3. Re:Immersion patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he is saying that capitalism doesen't work.

    4. Re:Immersion patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since when does capitalism work without patents? That's silly. Capitalism would work fine without patents, just RnD spending would be much lower. At least, that's the theory anyway.

  12. DIY rumble seat by Mostly+Monkey · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One of the niftiest things I picked up on while setting up my home theater were some bass shakers. Once set up correctly it causes your chair or entire couch to rumble along with your subwoofer. All you need is a cheap pair of transducers (speaker core without the cone) like the Aura Bass shakers ($30ish a pair) and a cheap amp to drive them ($50 or so if not free. Preferably one that has an output level control for tweeking the amount of shaking). Attach them securely to the framework of the seat and split your linelevel subwoofer output to feed both the sub and the amp for the shakers. The sub output will only send low frequency signals so you don't have to worry about the couch shaking during dialog or other higher frequences.

    There's a huge thread about it at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&t hreadid=330436/.

    --
    Chika Chik-ah... do-e ow ow.
    1. Re:DIY rumble seat by Mostly+Monkey · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, I would have thought that that was on-topic. Perhaps I should have called it a "forcefeedback" seat since that seems to be the current description of rumble effects. *rolls eyes*

      --
      Chika Chik-ah... do-e ow ow.
    2. Re:DIY rumble seat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's an interesting read, but the topic is about a legal issue betweeb two companies over programmable force-feedback game controllers. Your post was about a DIY bass seat. One has little to do with the other, other than involving a shaking motion, even if both might be of interest to gamers.

      So yes, it's off-topic, but still very interesting, just as a post about self-rocking baby cradles would be off-topic but potentially interesting. Oh well, at least you got some poor moderator to (wronngly) negate the previous moderation you received. Let the metamoderators figure that garbage out.

  13. My other company's exp... by Taulin · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    First...This is bad. Patents are great, but did this company actually make these products that use their patent? Patents should be like trademarks, in which you actually have to use it, and produce it, with PROOF, to keep it. Terrible news.

  14. Nintendo was not dumb by MaverickUW · · Score: 1

    Guys, Nintendo can't claim prior art anyway. If you read this Immersion Technologies Press Release about Gamecube then you'll see that Nintendo has liscensed the patents already. You're right, Nintendo is no slouch about patents, but with how they go after them, they know better than to try and get around them.

    I believe immersion holds the patents for all the original force-feedback stuff coming out for computers back in the later 90's too.

    1. Re:Nintendo was not dumb by j0nb0y · · Score: 2, Informative

      Good link, but apparently you didn't read it. It says that Logitech has licensed technology that will be used in a steering wheel controller which will come out for Gamecube. The article has nothing to do with Nintendo or first party gamecube controllers.

      --
      If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?