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Harvard Pres Says Females Naturally Bad at Math
Man_Holmes writes "Harvard president says that women lack natural ability in math and science and this explains why fewer women succeed in math and science.
Lawrence H. Summers later said that he was discussing hypotheses based on scholarly work and that it did not necessarily represent his private views."
I'd be interested to see what peer-reviewed, repeatable research there exists on actual gender differences.
I remember hearing in a developmental psych class that only 5-10% of the 'standard' gender differences have any biological basis; and the NY Times article on this topic quotes a woman who was angry because, if I remember right, the entire morning of the symposium had been spent dispelling those same myths.
The trouble with this kind of research seems to be that there's too much political intrigue - every scientist is going to be accused of (or possess) some kind of bias in American gender-polarized society, and that is difficult to filter out even if you're aware of it.
Maybe we should just move to Sweden.
We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
I don't think of this so much as being PC as I think of it as being sexist, and I think that the race/womens movement would agree that sexism/racism is bad.
What reason could you have for running a huge study on the intellectual limits of one sex or another, or one race or another, but to use that information to exclude that race or sex on the basis of their supposed lack of ability?
Seriously. I'm not a PC guy, but when I see crap like this, I can only really see one reason for it. He's making a case that Harvard needen't worry about having a balanced enrollment in math or science, because females are too stupid to be in those courses of study. He doesn't cite any studies, he doesn't seem to have any facts except for crap about his freaking 5 year old.
He deserves to be roasted.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
Here's an interesting thing. I am a female physics PhD student. What I noticed in my university and from discussions with other PhD students and scientists, this is fairly common in other universities, is that the ratio of female to male students, in physics and maths at least is about 50/50 through undergraduate. And they do well in it. They get As and first-class honours. The most obvious exception to this is engineering. That's still very male dominated. But as you start going up to PhD level and then further you start losing girls. However the situation today is still much better than in the past. As you look at the older scientists in your department you will generally see that as the age goes up, the more likely that they are male.
This is Australia, so maybe things are different in the US. But what I understand talking with other scientists (including male ones) is that first of all the PhD itself is a slog. Secondly after you finish you go through a long period where you get 1-2 year postdocs here and there and you are likely to be constantly moving. It is much easier for a guy to tell his wife that they are moving and that she should quit her job and pack and for the guy to spend years working late at night and expecting his wife to hold the fort at home with the kids and housework than for a woman to do the same thing. Also then you want to have a baby and you have to take at least a year off, sometimes even more, and well you can see how things go. Oh, and also as my (male) supervisor once warned me, some of the older guys are just biased against women. They won't say it outright but it affects how they select people for jobs.
Girls are so pampered today by our public education system that most of them are terribly thin-skinned. One of the girls in my CS program used to go into a crying temper tantrum everytime someone more than very, very gently criticized something she said or did. Most of the guys I see are supportive of the girls.
Here's a novel idea though. If you want a man to respect you as a colleague, ladies, then do a man's work and do it LIKE a man. That means you meet or exceed the level of work that a man would in your position. No excuses ladies, just fucking take it like a man.
The girls that I know who make it do that. They don't make excuses, they just compete. They don't whine about sexism, in fact the most successful of them as a "bring it on, fuckers" attitude toward sexism.
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
Well I'm a female and when I was a young girl I found dolls to be extremely boring. When someone gave me trucks I did what every other kid around me did - bang them into each other and pretend that they are fighting. Then again, I did grow up with two brothers and 90% of the neighbourhood kids were boys...I even tried to be a "proper" girl and bought myself a Barbie doll (with a pink dress) but it was hopeless. It was so boooring. I had much more fun playing with my brother's Lion Voltron action figures. I was still a typical girl though. I liked dressing up. I read girl magazines and trashy romance novels.
On the other hand my male cousin despite being pretty macho and a typical gamer dude, loves cooking, sewing, knitting and crocheting and has since he was very young (while I hated these things). He used to force my uncle and aunt to teach him these things and while he *hated* to read borrowed cooking and sewing books (of his own violation) from the library. Oh, and he's studying comp sci as well and no he's NOT gay.
Anyway, anedoctal evidence you say? Well, so is the Harvard guy's evidence as well.
How about we are all individuals? While there may be some difference between males and females, I suspect the overlap between male and female brains is much much larger.
They rarely coincide.
I think it has been long established that unless other factors play into it, women are driven by different drives than men. I don't pretend to understand whether it's a cultural matter or a genetic one, but there are a variety of biological reasons for women to be less capable of maintaining abilities in math and logic (which are devoid of emotion). Women have a lot of games that their bodies, for better or worse, play on them that men do not suffer or experience.
Now I have seen other studies among toddlers showing that on the large, boys are more successful at getting around obstacles (read as stubborn if it helps you to think so) than the girls who were prone to simply giving up in frustration. The notion is that as a toddler, there is less chance of a child being tainted by learned roles and behavior although there will still be some of that.
But frankly, I am a little annoyed when studies are criticised for reasons that have little to nothing to do with evidence to the contrary and more about a conflict of opinion or ideals. We don't want to hear that men and women are not equals -- that would mean all sorts of problems in our future because after all, look how far we've come by legislating that women are equal to men:
We have an unprecedented number of single-parent families and all of the dysfunctional children that accompany those numbers. We have an unprecedented divorce rate that never stops climbing. (Studies have shown that 80% of all marriages start where men ask the women, but it is in the 90% range where women initiate divorce.) Women in the workplace are supposed to be equal but statistically, they spend less time at work than men do for the same job.
Before women start bashing me on this because it doesn't fit "you" or some smaller group of people -- this is about the country of the U.S. at large. And if you think there aren't cases to the opposite, it would be wrong for me not to acknowledge it.... so here's your bone. I read in a black woman's magazine about some refreshing statistics that the decline of black single mothers collecting welfare is increasing at an almost unexplainable rate. They are becoming far more educated than their white counterparts, and are earning more money than their black male counterparts. I can only attribute that to cultural adjustments within those circles but it does illustrate an important point I'd like to close with.
Natural ability or talent alone do not determine potential for success or limitations. There are thousands of other factors that can come into play when determining these things which can even include the direction of the wind at the moment of determination. So then what would be the purpose of such studies?
It's about understanding ourselves; who we are -- our strengths and our weaknesses. And the sooner we embrace whatever the "facts du jour" are, the sooner we can begin from a proper perspective rather than the basis of some political agenda.
No. In summary, men tend to have more serious accidents. The other bit could easily be that women are more likely to file an insurance claim for a minor mishap. Maybe men figure they can fix or have someone else fix the problem. Maybe men feel more embarassment over having accidents and thus only file claims when there's no way they can pay for the repairs. Or of course maybe they really do have fewer minor accidents.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
According to the BBC, The difference in male vs. female brain size (about 10%) in humans and higher order primates is directly attributable to in increase is the size of the areas of the brain responsible for geo-spatial mapping and visualization. Natural selection is the culprit in this instance. It seems that if you couldn't find your way home after the day's hunt, you got less of an opportunity to pass on your genes!
When you think about it, (and be honest now) in your experience, exactly what is the ratio of male to female Unix admins?
Got 'cha!
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
look how far we've come by legislating that women are equal to men: We have an unprecedented number of single-parent families and all of the dysfunctional children that accompany those numbers. We have an unprecedented divorce rate that never stops climbing. (Studies have shown that 80% of all marriages start where men ask the women, but it is in the 90% range where women initiate divorce.)
Yes, and there you haven't even touched the subject of what happens after that divorce; the woman gets away with the kids and your money. Hell, I know men where the woman, right after they decided to divorce, robbed the entire house clean of all their mutual belongings (with the help of friends), in addition to taking a way too large lump of his future income, and taking all his rights away to see his kids. Judges won't punish this sort of outright criminal behaviour and the woman's part, undoubtedly for a variety of reasons, but justice is not one of them. Feminism is, I suspect. There's a reason for the fact that organisations like Fathers for Justice exist. This happens in Europe, mind you!Feminism destroyed America, the whole western world for that matter. And still there are people (the variery that needs to sit down to pee, that is) claiming that feminism hasn't come far enough yet. Excuse me?! What do they want men to be? Men are more than a monthly income, and a means for women to be able to shit out these godawful screaming shitting smelling monsters they call babies!
On the other hand, there is a difference between what women say (or think) they want, and what they actually want; they claim that they want men and women to be equal, and that they want a man with feminine qualities. Bullshit! What they want, is a man; someone who has the traditional male qualities like confidence, and not being afraid to set limits, etc. Until women see the flaw in their own logic here, the divorce rate will not get better. On the other hand, once you understand this as a man, it's time to get a woman that doesn't think in such a feministic way. Really, they exist :)
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In my short experience as a motorcyclist, I have learned to be much more wary of women and elderly drivers than any other demographic. No scientific study, no raw data to back this up, just my experience with close calls, ran stopsigns, sudden turns with no signals, and seeing who pays attention to the road and who doesn't.
I have already been hit once by a soccer Mom in a minivan who decided a red light meant talk to her daughter in the passenger seat and do not watch where you are going. About a dozen or so close calls with this kind of situation have reinforced this view.
Am I being sexist for thinking this way? Perhaps, but since all evidence I have gathered supports it, I will continue to asses situations this way when I am on the road. It has kept me out of some accidents so far.
Finkployd
Spatial reasoning plays a role in driving as well, another attribute that tends to be higher among men. I have known women that drive well, even 18-wheelers and such, so they do exist. But I have also known women too terrified of the oncoming traffic and doubting their ability to reconcile all that movement properly. I have never met a man who is concerned about being able to track all the traffic. Driving may stress them out, but I have not seen them refuse to learn to drive because it's too scary. My last girlfriend had it running in her whole family. She said, "The women in my family simply do not drive, it's just too freaky." The girlfriend before her had caused at least three people to swear that they would never attempt to teach her to drive ever again. I've yet to meet a man like this. My sister loves to drive, but has also managed to run into something with EVERY vehicle she has ever been in control of, she can't even keep an off-road vehicle out of the trees.
I can say with a degree of certainty that if you are in the South, you will have issues starting your career. They *expect* women want to be married, have kids, etc. So, given your age, they will be expecting you to want to do this fairly soon. This will count against you in your job hunt. Good luck. You have very tough choices to make and you will find that you cannot do everything you want to.
:)
Before anyone claims I'm flamebaiting...I lived in the South for many years and knew many employers who flat out tell you this stuff. Hell, I like the South. Southern women rule.
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. -- H. L. Mencken
Not only that, but women endurance in general is far superior. Look at adventure racers. Women kick ass in most teams - though they are harder to find as it is not popular. But they usually can not navigate. :)
But it is all beside the point. The point is that significant differences exist, and it is absolutely normal to acknoledge that. And like many people pointed out - this is just the third, worst type of lying - statistics. Use it appropriately.
<^>_<(ô ô)>_<^>
Still, it isn't normal (or rather, shouldn't be) to use those differences as justification for discriminatory policies.
/. thread: "Women suck because they don't do math/science."
Which, sadly, it is. Just look at this whole
Gee, I wonder why not? Thanks for the encouragement, guys.