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HP to Region-code Cartridges
prostoalex writes "Looks like the printer cartridge manufacturers will be borrowing techniques from Hollywood. HP introduced region coding for some of the newest printers sold in Europe. HP's US location and US dollar sliding lead to the situation, where cartridge prices in Europe are significantly higher than those in the States. In the Wall Street Journal article HP representative in Europe claims the company doesn't make any money off regional coding for cartridges, and that consumers will win once the US dollar rises over Euro."
I think I speak for everyone when I say, "Damn greedy bastards!"
Oh.. and don't try to fool me into believing that you don't earn anything from catridges.
If they claim they don't make money off region coding cartridges, why are they doing it? Sounds like bullshit to me.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Sorry, the dollar will rise against the euro!?!?! When exactly? From where I'm looking, it looks like the current barmy US economic policy will see it sliding indefinately... say goodbye to buying oil with dollars.
Well, more material for the boys from Brussels. I guess HP is doing their best to break MSFT record for an EC fine.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Consumers will win once the US dollar rises over Euro
Oh yes! I'm sure consumer in the US will be thrilled!
if the US dollar rises over the Euro
Seriously, is it ethically correct that 100ml ink is more expensive than 100ml insulin?
Screw the FSM - Real geeks believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn
How are they going to prevent me from importing a printer together with the cartridges? Or will they find some neat software scheme in the driver to find out in which country the printer is being used?
Oh well, time to find a printer manufacturer with printers as their core business instead of selling printer ink for gold-prices.
Because IMHO HP are now Evil. Time was when HP kit was the bollocks, and totally reliable, and not too expensive. Now they're a bunch of assholes trying to wring every last euro out of us.
So the big question is are there any non-Evil printer manufacturers out there?
and that consumers will win once the US dollar rises over Euro."
So, I am never going to win?
I would like to region code my money so that it cannot be used outside my home country. What's that? currency exchanges? I am sorry, but by accepting my payment you agree to the EULA on my cheque which forbids you from exchanging, transferring or otherwise distributing my money. You can keep my money but cannot transfer it to someone else. I also have a huge list of restrictions on how you can store and play with my money. There, that's fair isn't it?
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
...buy Canon next time...
Buy Canon...
This'll also save me time from taping of my 40ml black cartridges to use on my HP Deskjet 970C, instead of the default 20ml ones...
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As currency fluctuates there will *always* be winners and losers in this scheme.
One year it's cheaper to import ink from the US at their price, the next cheaper for USians to import EU ink.
What next? Region encoded GM rice ?
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
In the Wall Street Journal article HP representative in Europe claims (...) that consumers will win once the US dollar rises over Euro.
I call bullshit on this. You always introduce regions to make consumers pay more than before (in total), hence the consumers lose. Naturally, some customers pay less than others (how else could it be price discrimination), but overall that is simply false.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Since printers are $50,- these days anyways, it's still cheaper to bulk import them from overseas and also get the overseas cartridges while we're at it.
bash$
No. But Canon kinda comes close. In short - go to your shop and check out the cartridges costs. Go to Usenet and check out for how long do they last.
this really inks me.
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/01/18/why_hps_regio n_codin.html
It is kind of strange to see these things happening.
As ridiculous region coding is for DVDs, there I can see a minimal reason (the publishers not wanting a DVD to make it into a market where the movie hasn't even been in the cinemas yet... But as cinema release dates for the big global productions inch ever closer to each other all over the globe, this reason is going away fast - leaving the only "good" thing of the region codings that they can charge more in Europe.
But for an inkjet printer manufacturer - this is pure rip-off. What would I gain by, say, buying an ink-cartridge for a printer that hasn't even been released here from the US? Nothing. I would only waste money.
But - since HP's pricing has gone worse over time anyway, I think it's time to ditch them for good and no longer buy their products... (and just hope that this whole thing doesn't catch on in the printer industry).
but I wasnt a dvd user, so I didnt do anything
Then, they came for the printer cartriges, but I didnt use a printer, so I never said anything.
what's next?
I did have a small talk at baggage check-in about the weight of the G5 and with the customs guy here in Austria about how new the stuff looked but even he did not really care that much. That the dollar sucks so much just makes it more attractive... it's like vacationing in a third world country only with lots of SUVs and chubby people.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
it'll be the Australians.
While I recognise your sarcasm, if HP does it down here, the ACCC (Australian Competition and Comsumer Commission) will probably belt them down, like they already have done for DVDs.
Every DVD player here is cheap and region unlocked. The only sane reason for buying some brand name contraption is if you want it to tie into your home theatre system well.
They had a blurb quoting a few prices for HP ink and Canon ink, and Canon was almost half the price of HP ink. (I wish I could find the damn magazine so I can quote exact numbers.... gotta clean my room)
It looks like an enforceable idea, but that doesn't make it good. Hacking the cartridges in order to make generic ones would become arguably illegal. Bad idea, maybe. It's possible less people will buy them. It's also possible they'll be declared a vertical monopoly and fined and forced not to do it ever again.
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
Here, a HP employee response and a business analysis of region coding Cartridges.
In short, HP has calculated that region coding their cartridges will pay. And it will, unless the public creates enough commotion to affect their bottom line and force a rethink of the region coding.
HP is restricting free the use of products that I own (or in this case, am likely to buy). As a proponent of Open Source I feel this is wrong. If you feel the same way, make your voice heard, either by boycotting the infringing products or helping to create awareness of these bad business practices.
---- It won't be as bad as you fear or as good as you hope, but it will take twice as long as you plan.
This move by HP is asinine for many reasons, but one has not been brought up in the comments so far:
On the one hand big companies and corporations are lobbying governments to lessen trade restrictions and import/export taxes so that they can benefit from cheap production costs in other countries. Then on the other hand, they add restrictions themselves so that they can still sell the items at high prices. They make sure that they benefit and not the customer.
Try are trying to have their globalisation cake and eat it.
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In other News....
Warren Buffett sees no way but down for US dollar
The dollar cannot avoid further declines against other major currencies unless the US trade and current account deficits improve, legendary investor and businessman Warren Buffett said.
"I think, over time, unless we have a major change in trade policies, I don't see how the dollar avoids going down," the world's second-richest individual told CNBC television.
"I don't know when it happens. I don't have any idea whether it will be this month or this year or next year, but we are force-feeding dollars on to the rest of the world at the rate of close to a couple billion dollars a day, and that's going to weigh on the dollar."
Buffett noted the record US deficit of 164.7 billion dollars in the third quarter of 2004 in the current account, which measures trade and investment flows.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
...the company looks at a demand/supply graph, and sets the supply (the part they do control) so that price (demand)*volume (supply) - cost is maximized. By splitting the market, they create two separate graphs instead of one cumulative graph. Then they do the same for each market.
I'll illustrate with an example. Person A: +10$, B,C,D: +$2 to profits (at most). Now, in a single market, you would have price 10, volume 1 and profit 10 (since all would buy at the same price, and 4*$2 < $10).
If you can split the market in a market A, and a market BCD, market A would have priceA = 10, volumeA = 1 and profitA = 10, market BCD would have priceBCD = 2, volumeBCD = 3 and profitBCD = 6. Yes, the compnay has higher profit but there is more supply and none of the consumers are worse off. This is the "good" side of price discrimination.
Now, let's look at an example which is more how it typically works. Person A: +25, B: +9, C: +15, D: +14, E: +9. In a single market, price = 9, volume = 5, profits = 45. Now let's split the market into AB and CDE. Market: AB: Price $25, volume 1, profits 25. Market CDE: Price $14, volume 2, profits 28.
In total, you have higher prices, higher profits (53 vs 45), lower volume (3 vs 5) and all your customers are worse off. Essentially, price discrimination is only good if it can open up markets you couldn't serve before. That is hardly the case here. But overall, it is not true that price discrimination = less supply.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
But wasn't the internet, ecommerce and globalisation supposedly all about getting the best deal anywhere in the freaking world? Now that the system works for consumers, not just for big business to lure away taxable profits, they pull shit like this.
Just realize it guys. Any business big enough is only after one thing, screwing everyone else. This is capitalism at it's finest, and those who endorse it shouldn't expect anything else.
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
My opinion: Fire Carly Fiorina! She can't make money for the company without being adversarial for customers. When a company treats its customers badly to try to make more money, that is an indication that the CEO is desperate.
Reworded: "Where are our anti-trust laws when we need them?" The U.S. government is so corrupt that there is no chance there will be any government involvement. A government that kills other people just because a few people want that certainly will not be influenced by laws.
HP inkjets aren't competitive, anyway, so don't buy them. In my experience, they've been having terrible problems with their printer management programs.
HP's action speaks loud and clear: Try Canon!
Tried for hacking your own printer catridge? C'mon! What judge would not feel fundamentaly insulted for having a case like that in his courtroom?
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
But - since HP's pricing has gone worse over time anyway, I think it's time to ditch them for good and no longer buy their products... (and just hope that this whole thing doesn't catch on in the printer industry).
Unfortunately, that's easier said than done. Take a look at the list of Suggested Printers for Free Software Users and try to find a printer that is well supported on BSD, Linux and friends. The list is a bit outdated, but in general it's a good guideline. I researched this in detail a few months ago when I was shopping for a new printer and in the end, as much as I hate HP, I decided that an HP PSC series printer would be the most suitable and economic choice for my needs.
Epson is even worse than HP in many ways as most modern Epson printers seem to be the disposable type which gets clogged up within 6 months in such a way that buying a new printer is cheaper than replacing the head.
Canon printers seem nice in terms of quality, but there are no realiable high quality drivers for BSD or Linux. The same can be said for all the other major manufacturers. Ink cost is also an issue and with HP you can at least resort to refilling the cartridges yourself, which reduces the cost about 4 to 5 times.
... to invest in a continuous flow system. CFSes exist for all of the popular printers out there. Once you buy and install one you only pay for ink. Yes, ink, not cartridges. You buy by the bottle and since ink is practically a commodity there's no artificial monopoly to screw you. Warranty, schmarranty - you can buy a brand new printer with the money saved.
Yes, they are more expensive, however it tends to be the "native" format for most Unix / Linux applications, and brand independent.
I have a HP LaserJet 6MP with Postscript for that reason. I did pay a small fortune for it a number of years ago, including upgrading the ram to 19MB (3MB factory + 16 MB). If and when I replace it, I may not buy a HP again, however I'll certainly be looking for a Postscript replacement.
The Internet's nature is peer to peer - 20050301_cs_profs.pdf
Interesting how confident they are, that the Dollar will once again surpass the Euro. If current foreign politics in the USA continue to circle around making war to arab states, this is not going to happen anytime soon.
Email regarding advertising (marketing people will take notice about bad PR).. html
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/hpads/contactus
Email Carly (probably /dev/null but you never know).
n dex.html
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/email/fiorina/i
They are still laughing. You are just too deaf to hear them. :P
I'd do something interesting, but my server can't handle a slashdotting.
Please people speak with your wallet. Next printer purchase put Samsung printers in consideration, since they offer Linux drivers. I am not "with" samsung, just I only consider, linux supported printers. To get other markets to open these days there has to be a few that start making it profitable to do so.
say goodbye to buying oil with dollars
yup, I'm off topic but this is really interesting.
Hmm, surley this is just another reason to start a foreign war again - it's difficult to stip trading in dollars if the US will simply invade or impose massive sanctions against you for doing so.
Lets take a look at the last 3 places to stop trading in dollars.
First Iraq changed to be trading it's oil in Euro's. Then Iran did the same, followed by North Korea - which decided to do all international trading in euros, not just oil.
So what makes a nation a member of the 'Axis of Evil'?
Shortly after North Korea made this statement there was an opec meeting where on the adgena for discussion was all opec trading in Euro's rather than dollars. It was around this time that the invasion of Iraq became inevitable...
So it stands to reason that most of Europe, especially those with strong ties to the euro were against the war (unlike the UK which still uses sterling and isn't going to join the Euro for a while, if at all).
AFAIK This was is more about trying to protect the (not so mighty now) dollar than to actually grab the oil itself. This works two ways - US industries get a big boost as they get work reconstructing Iraq, as well as constructing all of the armaments dropped there plus a nice foreign war normally helps the home economy anyhow. Also the oil is now being traded in dollars again.
In some respects the Iraq war is part if not the start of a large economic power struggle between Europe and the US...
Unfortunatley IMHO this is starting to backfire on the US administration - the whole exercise has been such a PR disaster in international terms that no-one wants to trade in dollars anymore given the choice. Also the US military is loosing the war - this doesn't give a boost to home economy. If you don't believe me check out non-US network news and read between the lines; there's more insurgents in Iraq now than coilition troops and they have much less logistical and supply problems, the support of the local population of which they are comprised and they have large and obvious military targets which cost the enemy a lot to replace whereas the US have now destroyed everything they can militarily and have prooved ineffective against tackling the insurgency (like umm, Vietnam). Also the insurgents have nothing to loose because the US has already taken it away from them - their culture, relegion, freedom and country have all been comprimised by the US - also like Vietnam.
Also this foreign policy is setting the US up to be a target for terrorism now for at least the next generation - this combined with the general distaste for that policy mean that the US is almost certainally now missing out on investments from foreign places and also highly skilled people who before would have happily worked in the US and contriubuted to it's economy are far less likley to do so.
I'm one of these people - I've always thought I'd probably end up working for high tech industry in the USA simply because the pay is better than elsewhere in the world. This isn't true anymore - the pay is now probably worse than here in Europe (because of the weak dollar) and I simply am unprepared to pay my taxes into a system that instigates and persues illegal foreign wars of aggression given the choice.
I am a happy owner of SAMSUNG ML-1210 /laser/ not an inkjet. It works like a charm/Fedora Core 1/.
I been having that printer for 3 years.
Samsung have drivers for linux on theyr web site, bu t the distros altrady have support for it.
I wondered if the people who put the region concept together didn't figure on not only protecting regional price differentials, but gaining better entry to markets sensitive to content for ideological reasons by "ensuring" that content they didn't like wasn't playable on the recorders commonly available within that region.
This would explain why the region code map has some significant geographical incongruities and why China is its own region.
Used laser printer at your neighborhood: $100-$150
Recycled toner cartridge: $50
Average # of pages per toner refill: 1000
Price of one black and white printout: 0.05$
Price of one digital camera picture on real photographic paper: 0.25$
Generic inkjet printer: $100-$150
Ink cartridges, black+colour: $60
'photo quality' glossy 4x6 paper, 50 sheets: $20
Average # of pages per ink refill: 250
Average # of color prints per ink refill: 50
Price of one black and white printout: 0.24$
Price of one color printout on glossy paper: 1.60$
Conclusion: Inkjet are for suckers. Flame away.
As ridiculous region coding is for DVDs, there I can see a minimal reason (the publishers not wanting a DVD to make it into a market where the movie hasn't even been in the cinemas yet... But as cinema release dates for the big global productions inch ever closer to each other all over the globe, this reason is going away fast - leaving the only "good" thing of the region codings that they can charge more in Europe.
... you've used it as an excuse to outsource our jobs overseas, now get used to us shopping overseas if we like."
Region codes are bullshit no matter how you slice it. They make a mockery of free markets and free trade agreements. Essentially, the international corporations have decided they like free trade agreements when it means they can outsource their labor to the cheapest markets without restrictions (and in the case of the Bush administration, with tax incentives to do so), but they will artificially fragment the marketplace in order to prevent their customers from shopping competatively.
Free trade for corporations, restricted trades for mortal humans.
Its unjustifiable, regardless of whether it's DVDs we're talking about, or printer cartidges. The DVD justification has always been weak, and typically break down to:
1) MPAA Whiney voice: "But we don't want people buying movies in one market when they haven't been released in another."
1) Sensible citizen's response: "Touch shit. It's a global marketplace. Release your movies globally, instead of fucking with people in market B by making them wait six months longer than people in market A. This whole "second class" market citizenship is vile anyway."
2) Whiney MPAA voice: "But we don't want arbitrage markets forming, where people buy DVDs in China for $3 and sell them in the US for $10 when we're selling the same DVD for $20."
2A) Reasonable citizen response: "Fuck you. If you can make a profit selling DVDs in China for $3, you can make a profit selling them in the US for $3. Anything more is gouging the customer, and quite frankly, no one with a shred of common sense should have an ounce of sympathy for an industry that bases its entire business model on the practice of gouging various sets of customers. Oh, and if you're going to whine about currency markets and shifting values of the yuan against the dollar, a sensible person has but two things to say. One, the Yuan is locked to the dollar, so the specific argument with regard to China is doubly bullshit, and two, in the more general sense (e.g. the US vs. Europe), currency markets are free marktets, and you can accept their results the same as the rest of us. If that means someone occasionally gets a good deal when they travel overseas, more power to them. Its called a global economy
HP should be run out of town for this nonsense. The MPAA should be run out of town for this nonsense. But most importantly, the scum-sucking politicians who set up this one-sided regime of free trade for companies, but restricted trade and rights for real, living human beings, should be run out of the country for this nonsense.
Not that I'm holding my breath, mind you.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Speak for yourself - my wife does scrapbooking and prints out a LOT of pictures. I would happily have paid $200 for the Epson C84 printer I have, if I had the assurance that a full set of printer carts would always cost in the $10-15 range. This razor-blade arrangement we have now SUCKS.
I saw a web page the other day talking about the fact that a freaking MICROWAVE OVEN can be bought for less than a set of ink cartridges for the average printer. How does that work, exactly? The carts are priced artifically high, that's how.
Indeed. In terms of game theory it's also important to notice the inbalance of power between players. That is: a large company, like HP, can afford to divide the world market into different economic regions, while smaller companies may not.
...It's so easy to show that free trade without corporate governance, international legislation, anti-trust and other regulation isn't helping anyone except those that don't need it.
In that light, it is not just the consumers who pay for HP's corporate wealth, but smaller companies will be forced to pay their share as well through unfair competition. Still, *they*'re supposed to be the only way out of the situation in a free economy. That is: free trade, and companies adhering to the principles of free trade are supposed to (somehow) conquer totalitarian regimes and companies and bring universal freedom, democracy, wealth and happiness to everyone eventually...