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Should Taxpayers Pay Twice For Weather Data?
theodp writes "Thanks to O.M.B. Circular A-130, taxpayers now enjoy free access to SEC, Patent Office, and IRS data over the Internet. Now the Bush administration must decide whether to order the National Weather Service to make taxpayer-funded weather readings freely available on the Net, ignoring complaints from an industry trade group that doing so violates pre-Internet era agreements."
This is gonna kick up a storm.
Nothing better for profit than paying twice.
fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Step 2 is dead people.
Australia does this. The result is lots of dead pilots and boaters every year because they didn't pay the money to get the services they need. The result is that other people end up paying far more for everything since the gov't is being too cheap.
Dumbass. Don't you know that weather is a considerable factor in military operations?
fast as fast can be. you'll never catch me.
As the weather changes for the worse recently, freely available weather data could possibly save lives.
Highlighted by a recent incident where heavy rain fell, a river rose, and 700 people were evacuated at 1am in a camp ground. On the news a 10yo kid recounted how the water was ankle deep in his tent, when the family was woken for evac. Some hours later only the tent tops were visible.
The commercial weather incumbent couldnt warn these people. A camper in the internet cafe might of.
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
Weather data is important for making predictions regarding natural resource management and food production, which are both important to securing national defense. It's also important for scheduling training exercises for the military, and numerous other things that are instrumental to national defense to anyone with even the slightest idea of what defending a nation entails.
That the data can be provided to the tax payer for personal benefit is just a nice side-effect.
They'll skip options one and two and head straight to Option Three:
Declare the weather a matter of national security, and order that it be classified as sensitive material immediately.
I think you need to look up the definition of "public good" and "positive externality."
Who do you get to be an expert to tell you something's not obvious? The least insightful person you can find? -J Roberts
Uhh...ebag? The article referenced in the submission is the Fallows article, republished through CNet.
I guess we can at least look forward to a Michael Sims finding a way to dupe this using the original NYTimes. I wonder -- do the editors get a cut of the ad revenue that is generated by each of the articles they sponsor n the front page?
This is just confusing -- the article briefly mentions the same thing:
"Now the Bush administration must decide whether to order the National Weather Service to make taxpayer-funded weather readings freely available on the Net, ignoring complaints from an industry trade group that doing so violates pre-Internet era agreements."
Eh? Isn't the information already free? Go to the NWS website. Everything is all there -- I visit it all the time. Seems like the decision has already been made, and the trade groups are arguing after the fact. Who cares if violates an agreement -- it's their right to change it? What does the Bush Administration have anything to do with this when the decision has already been made?
Perhaps they just didn't bother to read the weather report. Much of the data is provide free (see the BOM) and updated regularly.
Data our taxes pay for, is public domain.
I don't think the courts would allow it any other way (should it get that far). If it does... think about what this could lead to:
- private companies like lexis-nexus being the only access to things like the Library of congress?
- private news networks the only way to read bills proposed on the state or federal level?
- Law Student need to read cases? Be prepaired to pay CourtTV several hundred dollars a month for access.
The Supreme Court is pretty conservative by any account, and tend to favor business over citizens rights (in the past 10 years)... but there's no way even they would let this one slip by.
Even their statements: public domain.
Data government creates is for the people.
http://www.weather.gov/ isn't good enough? they list all a crap-ton of weather stations, all you need to know is what city you want.
And remember, when they say "intrest group" it usually means "(not in the citizen's) intrests group".
Is it just me, or does this sound like scare tactics? Would the National Weather Service hire fewer meteorologists or invest less in necessary equipment, instead spending the money on these public services? Or could public appreciation of the services actually mean better funding for the NWS, recouping the costs?
If anyone knows, has there been real criticism concerning the tsunami and the weather service? And secondly, what's the cost of these public services compared to the total budget?
I think this is just FUD, but if anyone has facts that say otherwise, I'll listen.
This article had nothing to do with making current weather information free! It is allready free, the US has the best weather service in the world, is the top country in the world for weather research, and its all FREE!! Check out MeteoFrance's website, you have to pay for info. Before you have a knee-jerk reaction: RTFA.
Personally, I don't think its a big issue, the only people who need a CD of archived data for the whole US would be researchers. As far as if you were curious about old weather data for your hometown you could probably go to your local weather field office and ask them for it (or check their website).
This implies, but doesn't state clearly, that its information should be made easily available to all
What I don't get is what exactly the NWS provides to the commercial weather services, and what exactly the companies do that they believe is being "duplicated" by the government.
My understanding was that the NWS simply collects raw data and feeds it to the companies. The companies do not actually collect weather data independently. Prior to the new rules, the NWS data was only available to said companies, which packaged it up with fancy graphics or some such nonsense. Now, anyone can download the data and set up their own service. Is this all true?
So, if the NWS is making fancy weather websites (and hence, directly competing with the companies), I agree that this might not be entirely fair (although I've seen this argument extended too far on occasion). On the other hand, if some random private individual wants to set up their own website to interpret the public data, what possible argument is there against this? I'm not clear on what exactly the industry association is objecting too - it sounds like a combination of both cases.
I found a Wired article from last month that made it a little clearer:
"Weather-industry companies were promoting the idea that the government restrict special interests that have the ability to pay for the data -- like Major League Baseball teams or citrus growers -- from acquiring it for free, [some weather company honcho] said."
That sounds like bullshit to me. Why should private companies be discriminated against? They're taxpayers too, at least in theory. The government shouldn't force them to go through some hideously expensive service to get the same info that the public receives for free. (Actually, though, this practice is unfortunately very common in academic sciences, largely as a way for universities to supplement their grant income.)
You could argue that the government shouldn't be in the business of collecting weather data at all - although I think there's a very strong case for the NWS even for libertarian types, since the primary role of government should be to protect our lives and property. So, assuming the NWS is a justified agency, there's no possible case for restricting access to the data to a few private companies.
Last I checked, we had captialism. When did we switch to corporate communism? Captialism works just fine. I own a small biz but I hve no right to profits, only the right to provide a service that may or may not provide a profit.
the u.s. constitution text was only available for viewing in a proprietary file format you needed to buy a license for to just read?
Serenity now, insanity later.
I say that if the weather industry doesn't like, maybe they should pick up the bill themselvs and pay it completely. Why should my tax money fully fund something I'll have to pay for anyway?
Is this slashdot.org or slashdot.org.us?
Don't assume "taxpayer" is well defined, 'cos it aint. Only some of us live in the USA.
Weather kills far more people in the US than foreign aggression. It is national defense (heck, NOAA even has their own uniformed, commissioned corps), just not defending from what you're too short-sighted to think of.
I'm a student studying meteorology. I've got a lot of data and software available to me when I'm at school that simply isn't available when I'm not there. It's frustrating to search for certain data and find that it's unavailable.
The private weather industry reached an agreement with the NWS before the internet that defined the seperation between the two. There were certain things that private industry would not do that the government would. It set the responsibilities for both. However, with advances in technology and lower costs, private weather can perform many tasks that the government legitimately does. Thus, NOAA believes it's time to redefine the boundary between the two. Presumably this would allow for some overlap.
Government has always been responsible for things such as soundings, radars, and issuing watches and warnings. There's many other things the NWS does as well. NOAA has attempted to make data available to the public whenever possible. For example, you can get a lot of radar data shortly after it's received from a NOAA ftp site. This is a good thing.
The way I see it is private industry has spent lots of money investing in things the NWS already does. Instead of just accepting this, they want to make money by taking over things that are normally done by the government and reducing the government's role.
Research is rarely profitable in the short term. It's an investment. Research in the meteorological community is ongoing. Constantly, work is being done to improve the data collected, our understanding of the weather, and the methods used to analyze the data. By taking things such as radar out of the hands of the government, we sacrifice the research that is currently being done. Remember, private industry isn't going to make the investment in research that the government is. After all, research doesn't make a profit quickly and doesn't impress investors.
IMHO, private industry is overstepping their bounds here. They're infringing into things the government already does. And they're pretending to be the victims in this.
If private industry gets their way, everyone who doesn't have a financial stake in this loses.
ignoring complaints from an industry trade group that doing so violates pre-Internet era agreements
I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.
Ah, I think I misunderstood a combination of the artice summary, the parent, and the grandparent. The summary states that if the information is made available over the net it will be free. The grandparent wrote step 1 as put the info on the net, so I assumed he meant for free. However his third step, which I overlooked, was profit, so I guess he meant charge for it over the net somehow. Apparently the parent I replied to thought so as well.
If Wx data were publically available, we run the risk of weathermen like this instead of the highly trained media professionals we have now.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
You're absolutely correct. But this is about more than disseminating data.
Private industry wants to take over actually collecting the data. They can't tell the NWS what to do with data the NWS collects, but they want to take collection of data out of the NWS' control. That's what the article is saying.
What's so wrong about this is research is rarely profitable in a short period of time. Industry is about impressing shareholders as much as it is about producing a product. I'm of the opinion that taking data collection out of the hands of the government will stifle research to improve our ability to collect this data.
This is extremely important, especially in areas such as radar. The WSR-88D radars, many of which were deployed in the early 1990s, were developed through years of research. They have the important feature that their predecessors don't of being able to detect motion, not just reflectivity. This allows meteorologists to detect things such as rotation and better issue warnings (particularly tornado warnings)! It's important that this research continue.
That's really why private industry's stance on this is dangerous and flawed.
Data our taxes pay for, is public domain.
Data isn't "public domain" - it's free, because you can't copyright data at all.
What MAY be covered by copyright is a PRESENTATION of data - i.e. a photo, diagram, map, etc. I can freely distribute a list of temperatures at various coordinates if I can get a copy of it no matter who first obtained that data, but I can only distribute a color-coded map of that data with permission from that map's creator.
paintball
It's kicking up some cool innovation. If you use Firefox, you can use the WeatherFox extension that uses this service. Now, I have nifty icons in my status bar and other information telling me my weather forcast.
This is very helpful for me, as I'm on a farm where weather changes are very important to know. I'm quite happy I no longer have to look at weather.com and its horrid layout.
You may be correct. But I've found this quote from the CWSA's site where they actually discuss the 1991 agreement:
"The NWS will not compete with the private sector when a service is currently provided or can be provided by commercial enterprises, unless otherwise directed by applicable law."
TV stations are a form of private weather. What's the difference between a doppler radar operated by TV stations and by the NWS?
Also, the article talks about the NWS being distracted by certain responsibilities and they would do a better job issuing warnings if they weren't distracted.
For what it's worth, there's already a lot of data from the NWS not distributed in an easily viewed form. Try, for example, looking through the NWS sites for a radar image of radial velocity or storm relative radial velocity. You'll find the raw level 3 data on an FTP but you won't find an image.
1: Steal Underpants
2: ???
3: Profit!
For example, Environment Canada has tons of information available, including:
Please note that most of the time the above linked pages state "CDROM", there is a link near to an ISO! (e.g. the line For those with a high speed Internet connection a HYDAT CD-ROM image (105MB ZIP) is available for download.")
Then I have to mention that I abhor the subsidizing of these private companies by using the money we taxpayers have used to create this network of weather sensors.
--You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
The NWS offers WAP services at: http://www.srh.noaa.gov/wml
With such a contentious issue like this, it's a good thing the title of the story isn't biased in any way. I really appreciate how Slashdot serves to be such a mediating influence.
This decision has already been made, in the first week of December.
Not only that, the already-made decision has been covered by slashdot, not once, but twice! (If a duplicate story is "dupe", perhaps an incorrect triplicate story should be referred to, appropriately, as "tripe".)
And the answer is a resounding no, taxpayers will NOT have to "pay twice" for access to weather data.
The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration this week began providing weather data in an open-access XML format, alleviating concerns that commercial providers would continue to play a dominant role in how weather data gets to the public.
"The public should not have to pay twice for access to basic government information that has been created at taxpayer expense," wrote Ari Schwartz, an associate director of the nonprofit Center for Democracy and Technology, in a July 28, 2004, essay.
Earlier this year, NOAA made the data available in XML as a test, called the National Digital Forecast Database. After receiving comments from the public and commercial providers, the agency made the decision permanent this week. Now anyone can get information in an XML format directly from the National Digital Forecast Database website.
Full story
slashdot coverage #1
slashdot coverage #2
Of course, this information has always been publicly accessible: it's just a matter of ease. The National Weather Service now makes its weather feeds accessible to anyone in open formats, like XML and RSS. Of course the commercial weather reporting industry is against it: surprise, surprise.
That used to be correct. You, Private Citizen, have always been free to collect the raw data from the NOAA. The policy the commercial weather firms arranged with the NOAA fourteen years ago was a statement that the NOAA wouldn't compete with the commercial firms, in terms of providing "finished" content.
I think the "competition" you were asking about occurred in 2003 when the NOAA started experimenting with making "point forecasts" available to the public: the weather firms cried foul. The NOAA decided to revisit their policy last year, and they requested public comment. The public outcry was loud and clear: if the NOAA was processing data at public expense, the NOAA was expected to make the processed data available to the public. And, surprisingly enough, it became their new policy despite complaints from the commercial firms. It's called the "Fair Weather Policy".
So, the point forecasts are now available on-line. How has that changed things? Not much. People still turn to the local TV station for weather in the morning, and they tune in to The Weather Channel if they're heading to the beach or the mountains.
I think where the main effect has been felt is in the industrial sector. For example, concrete companies typically rely on a very precise two hour forecast to ensure their new sidewalks won't get rained on. They used to pay lots of money to private meterologists who "insured" their forecasts (for $499.00 we'll guarantee you'll see no rain in the next two hours or we pay you $10,000.) But with NOAA point forecasts available, as a concrete company I'd be likely to take my own chances regarding rain.
John
2004 just called, and it wishes to point out that information is no longer scarce, nor costly to disseminate.
so when you say you can get the weather for free, can you get the weather in plain text? or do you have to go to a webpage with advertisements spewed across your screen. Or do you have to install some clientside program which includes boatloads of spyware built into it?
I do not believe that your definition of free is, in fact, free.
If the govt (the PEOPLE) funds this data to be collected, then the PEOPLE should have the right to view it freely. The internet pipe required to send this data would be CHEAP if all you are doing it spitting out ASCI text of the locations you wish to lookup information on--this is even more true when you compare it to the actual cost to collect said data.
Troll, Troll, go away and flame again some other day
Nice reply.
The data is already processed. Those images you see are just representations over level III data plotted over base maps. They already produce all of that level 3 data.
So, the only thing they would be doing is plotting data they've already got.
By the way, you're also incorrect about the government's priorities. After posting, I examined the NWS site and apparently they're creating new images for some radars which plot the data over a view of the terrain. And they've also produced some radial velocity images along with it. This data isn't available for most of the radar sites, but it is being developed.
Furthermore, not too long ago, the NHC was requesting comments on modifying some of its images issued to the public.
If the NWS didn't feel these things were important, would they be doing these things?
2: ??????
with that one.
That presumes you have a wallet to vote with. And remember that the one with the biggest wallet wins - who gives a jot about the peons, I only care about what JP Morgan says. In a truly free market you get to hand your wallet to JP Morgan or any of the other robber barons that used to dominate America. Don't like working 80 hours a week for $1 a day - tough shit that's the free market (shoot all those commie-loving unionists right now). Like being able to return a crappy product for a refund - that's the government (waranty shmaranty - caveat emptor!).
The Libertarian Party will get rid of any corruption in the Government, spend less by eliminating all unconstitutional programs of the government "which is almost everything", lower taxes by eliminating expenses. The only way is to eliminate social security and put the money from the trust fund plus money from selling the unconstitutional National Parks to the highest bidders into the national debt, anything that's left will go toward paying off the debts of all State and local governments, but, once the debts are taken care of, the Libertarian Party will pass a Constitutional Amendment that will force a balanced budget and even remove the constitutional amendment that allows the dreaded Income Tax.
The only party that will put this country back on track is the Libertarian Party, no other parties will do diddly fucking squat about the economical problems in the US because they're being controlled by Corporate America and Special Interest Groups, and don't give a fuck about individual rights.
Yes, I did say "Libertarian Control", but at least they go by the constitution, if anyone is against the Libertarian Party, they are against the Constitution itself because the other parties pick and choose from the constitution and discard what they don't like. Again, Libertarians are the only ones that really care about individual rights and freedoms, not the fucktard Republicrats.
The world's best research sees its first incarnation on bar napkins across the globe.
Bar napkins in strip joints, if we're lucky.
-kgj
-kgj
What's new here is the technology allows the NWS to provide forecast data for an exact location. It was simply a byproduct of producing an accurate forecast. The NWS simply stuck on a web front end to allow everyone access to it.
I still think the industry is not going to serve themselves well by pushing this into Congress. Right now, the vast majority of the public is blissfully unaware that if they type weather.gov instead of weather.com into their browsers, they get good local information with no advertising. Once the Commercial Weather Services Association starts raising a stink in the Senate, I think the NWS is going to make a lot of front pages around the country. I believe the NWS will get a lot more customers at the expense of The Weather Channel.
John
In a truly free market you get to hand your wallet to JP Morgan or any of the other robber barons that used to dominate America.
...? Why the past tense?
... and so on.
What do you mean, used to
* Prescott Bush and Union Bank
* Savings and Loan Scandal
* Ken Lay and Enron
-kgj
"As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless."
-- Lincoln to (Col.) William F. Elkins, Nov. 21, 1864
[Source ]
-kgj
If you go to the /obseravtions subdirectory, you have the raw data transmitted from the actual observing sites. The /observations/metar/cycles subdirectory contains all of the observations collected by NOAA during the hour, and the /observations/stations subdirectory contains the data for each individual station.
/forecasts/taf/cycles subdirectory contains all aviation forcasts, and the /forecasts/taf/stations subdirectory contains data for each individual station, as forecast by the forecast office responsible for that particular station. The /raw subdirectory contains upper air data, (exactly as transmitted by the stations collecting the data) which could be easily decoded by someone who knows how to decode rawinsonde* data. (Hint - raw is short for rawinsonde*)
For those needing aviation data, the
*Rawinsonde - A radio transmitter attached to a balloon that transmits pressure, temperature, and humidity data back to a base station so that the composition of the atmosphere can be determined.
If any pilot takes off without obtaining accurate and timely weather information for his route and destination, he might as well spin the chambers of a loaded gun and take his chances.
Having to pay for good information is wrong, BUT, flying is expensive anyway - why not grumble and for the moment pay the extra ? - it may well be the difference between life and death.
"We feel that they spend a lot of their funding and attention on duplicating products and services that already exist in the private sector," Barry Lee Myers, executive vice president of AccuWeather, says of the weather service. "And they are not spending the kind of time and effort that is needed on catastrophic issues that involve lives and property, which I think is really their true function."
The internet weather companies, and their front organization, are continually propagating the lie that "these services already exist" in the private sector. The fact is that they are trying to steal the commons and then charge the community for access to it. They DO NOT launch their own weather satellites, NOR do they build and man their own NexRad radar sites. They get the weather data THE GOVERNMENT PROVIDES AT TAXPAYER'S EXPENSE and repackage it with talking heads and lots of ads, except that the product they deliver is often 15 or more minutes behind the actual weather, minutes that can mean the difference between life and death when a tornado is bearing down. NOAA NextRad sites are usually less than 7 minutes or less behind the actual weather. I can access the Omaha site and determine the approaching weather within 7 minutes of accuracy. The Weather channel makes available only 75 access points to cover the entire country. Lincoln is not one of them, so I am stuck with a North Central regional map. Not very handy if I wanted to determine last spring if the F4 tornado that hit Hallam 20 miles to the south west was going to roll over Lincoln or pass south of it. The desktop access app from the Weather Channel would cost me $60/year and is a box smaller in size than the NOAA nexrad animations, but it is surrounded by tons of ads which cycle constantly, eating bandwidth and slowing response time for the actual weather information update.
The reason why the weather companies are taking this political tack (Part Duce) is because they lost a recent PUBLIC battle to persuade NOAA sites to shut down public access. NOAA requested public input on the question and recieved over 1,400 responsible replies. The response was in favor of continuing free public access to NOAA weather sites by a ratio of better than 99 to 1. Now they are working behind CLOSED DOORS lobbying congress and , no doubt, buying with 'campaign donations' what their poor logic couldn't win in the court of public opinion.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
try this out, goto the NOAA aviation website and do a TAF (terminal area forecast) aka the local weather. You'll have to put in an airport so try KPMD (Palmdale airport, Palmdale CA) You have two options raw data or translated
Here are the two so you can see the difference.
KPMD 241130Z 241212 23008KT P6SM SKC
FM1500 VRB03KT P6SM SCT200
FM0100 24008KT P6SM BKN100
and translated
Forecast for: KPMD
Text: KPMD 241130Z 241212 23008KT P6SM SKC
Forecast period: 1200 to 1500 UTC 24 January 2005
Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change
Winds: from the SW (230 degrees) at 9 MPH (8 knots; 4.2 m/s)
Visibility: 6 miles (10 km)
Clouds: clear skies
Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period
Text: FM1500 VRB03KT P6SM SCT200
Forecast period: 1500 UTC 24 January 2005 to 0100 UTC 25 January 2005
Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change
Winds: variable direction winds at 3 MPH (3 knots; 1.6 m/s)
Visibility: 6 miles (10 km)
Clouds: scattered clouds at 20000 feet AGL
Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period
Text: FM0100 24008KT P6SM BKN100
Forecast period: 0100 to 1200 UTC 25 January 2005
Forecast type: FROM: standard forecast or significant change
Winds: from the WSW (240 degrees) at 9 MPH (8 knots; 4.2 m/s)
Visibility: 6 miles (10 km)
Ceiling: 10000 feet AGL
Clouds: broken clouds at 10000 feet AGL
Weather: no significant weather forecast for this period
The whole point for the coding was for bandwidth since this info use to be sent out by teletype, which by the way is the same information the weather stations use to provide the weather. The only ones that provide better local coveral are the ones that have their own weather radar, but they are far and few between.
You can goto http://www.weather.gov/ to see what they are screaming about it's even simpler than the aviation site.
The cost out of pocket to the tax payers a year is about $3 each and it might cost an extra nickle to provide the automated websites. Money well spent in my book.