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Fansubbers Under Fire
CNet is running a story about new developments in the fansubbing world. The article provides some background, and then discusses
Media Factory's recent letters to fansubbers demanding removal of their shows. Historically the studios have turned a blind eye towards the work of the fansubbers, and the assumption has always been they they secretly approve since the fans work is amazing market research. I've bought countless DVDs based entirely on the work of fansubbers, so I hope that this isn't the beginning of the end.
Whether it's theft of service, or theft of property, it's still theft.
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So apparently it's ok to take others' work that doesn't belong to you, and, perhaps because you've put a little work into it yourself, and don't fundamentally agree with regional releases, it can be rationalized that it must be "ok" to use and release it for free! And then when a content owner does come along and actually take notice (because if they didn't notice before, certainly that means it was tacitly approved of, even though you didn't ask permission, because certainly *everyone* must be aware of your phenomenal work!), you'll come up with further reasonings why you don't have to respond to the letter or spirit of their request!
I understand perfectly now, thanks!
Media Factory should have been less blunt since as mentioned the "dirty little secret" about digisubs is that companies actively use this as a marketing tool to know what is hot and what is not. They get a lot more feedback through watching fan activity than they ever did in those "reader response cards" and web site mechanisms. Even so, I can't blame Media Factory for wanting to protect their investments. They took the time and money to create shows to market in the Japan and the US and are irked to see their work handed out freely. Although they could have handled in a more friendly fashion the fact is that they asked these groups to stop and it is in their right to do so. They should have handled it with a gentle handle instead of the blunt instrument of psuedo-legal issuing of offical letters.
The fansubing groups need to get off their high horse and honor the request. In the past, "fansub ethics" have always said "honor the request of the creators" reguardless of reason. As much as these guys think they are "promoting the show by sharing" they continue to ignore the reason they are asked to stop which is that there is a seedy element in fandom that just wants cheap shows to watch.
Both sides should just acknowledg each other and walk away from this situation cleanly instead of fuming and dwelling on it. The system works best when it runs silent not when red flags and warning bells go off.
Not yet... Give it time. With the US government in the hands of big business, I fully expect to see copyright infringment criminalized within the next few years... They'll probably be using the death penalty in a decade...
Now onto the subject of this debate:
I was a fairly active fansubber in the late 90s, but had to give it up because of time constraints (and because I got tired of poor-quality translations). I never digisubbed (old school SVHS subbing), but I still download stuff today and watch it.
I don't think the fansubbing is all bad, as it does provide a decent method of previewing series without shelling out $15-20 to buy DVDs that you might not like. And there's still far more anime produced in Japan than will ever be released in North America. Some series are too short to be cost-effective, and some just aren't suitable for distributers here.
That said, the trend of distributing full-resolution subs with high quality video and audio encoding is pretty dangerous. If the video was 1/2 res or lower, and audio was MP3 at less than 128kbps, then it wouldn't be of sufficient quality for people to archive/keep when DVDs are released. Sure you could watch it, but you'd definately prefer having the real thing.
I was doing a fair bit of encoding/releasing of JPOP concert material, but I'd make sure the video and audio quality was highly-compressed enough to "encourage" people to buy the original DVDs. I'd never release direct copies of the VOBs, even to my friends online.
In the end, it will be better for the fansubbers to find a way to help work with industry (and most reputable subbers WILL terminate their subbing of series when studios either announce acquisition of a series, or when they actively start distributing it).
And don't kid yourself that this is just a north american thing. There's a booming anime fansubbing industry in other asian countries as well (Korea for instance).
N.
"Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
As someone who appreciates anime, I can say from first hand experience that it's probably not the Fansubbers fault that the fan base is growing but sales are flat - especially in the mid-quality series.
After finding the fansub community, I can say that it's a GREAT resource for several things: checking out the latest and greatest coming out of Japan, finding obscure series that will probably *NEVER* see the light of day in the U.S.. An added bonus is that when a series comes out in the U.S that I've already seen, I can either purchase them on DVD if I think they're worth my hard-earned dollar, or pass if I think it's garbage. Additionally I ALWAYS make it a point to recommend lesser-known but well-done series to my other anime fan friends.
I think that the flat sales that the companies are concerned with is a sign that their consumer base is getting smarter with their purchases. I know I hate buying something on DVD that looks really cool to find out that it's a single 30 minute episode - especially after shelling out $20-$30. As the medium becomes more commonplace, I expect that this trend will continue.
(2) I will not buy DVDs blind, nor will I watch anime dubbed. I require at least a sampling before I plunk $ down on discs. Fansubs meet this requirement and have determined every single one of my anime purchases, with the exceptions of those series that came out before fansubbing really existed.
Which would include RoboTech (dubbed), Speed Racer (likewise) and what else? I remember watching fansubs in 1992, when most of them were the work of lone American ex-patriots living in Japan, buying anime laserdiscs, and adding subtitles with Toast.
I will say that the studios could use help with their subtitles. After accidentally watching part of the Cowboy Bebop series with both subtitles and English dubbing, I realized the subtitles were horrifically bad translations -- they appeared to be just literal translations, with no regard for making sense in English and sounding like real dialog. I ended up watching the rest of the series dubbed. (The same can not be said of Princess Mononoke and its lousy American actors trying to do voiceover work.)
I personaly purchased or at least started to purchase nearly every anime title that I enjoyed and felt it is worth it. Being that I felt that the creators deserived my hard earned cash in some format. Theres some titles that are in "licenceing hell" that I want to end up buying the leagl region 2 dvds. To say thanks to the producer of said title.
If I didn't have fansubbs I would probaly be forced to use the sad excuse for a rental system that exists for some genres. It has gotten better over the years for the rental market. Overall I see the legal problems with fansubs and see the great usefullness of them for the american distribters. Alot of time fansubs are used to gauge how well the fans are liking a title or genre. Also if said title is worth charging tons for the licence. Right now the sleeper genres are for the most part the genres that fansubers avoid for the most part which is the sports anime and the likes. This is pure opionion on my part.
I am your lord jdarr bow bow down and pled to me and give me your anime and computer parts.
There is also a great deal of parody in the fansub (and fandub) world, which is explicitly not copyright infringement. So be careful not to mix the two.
Some of the best fansub work I have seen is hysterically funny.
OTOH, there are a number of anime films/series I have seen which were fansubbed (or fandubbed) accurately, which I never would have understood without them. (Dirty pair, tank police, bubblegum crisis - all loooong before I ever saw the 'official' subs/dubs.)
What's even more interesting is that a source (of unknown reliability) at a television studio told me that when Sailor Moon was licensed for broadcast in the U.S., the "translator" didn't speak a word of Japanese. Therefore the entire first season was "translated" simply by watching the visuals and trying to come up with a storyline to match.
The most telling thing to me is that fansubbers sub series because they enjoy them, not because they want to try to earn money off them. It seems like most commercial releases just do elaborate dubs and stick on a few trailers for other series. But as the article mentions, they don't put the effort into it that fansubbers do. There's no painstakingly yet beautifully done karaoke, no pretty and easy-to-read color-changing fonts, no translations for all the onscreen signs or Japanse jokes. And most commercial releases have a fair number of grammatical errors in their subtitles, which personally annoys me. I understand that things like these probably don't both most of their audience, which is why they don't do them, but it would be nice to see a US studio put as much effort into their releases as fansubbers do. If you really love a series, it shows.
Dear Japanese Anime companies:
I've been watching anime since about 10 years ago. Before the internet era, all we could do was renting some limited anime at very specialized stores. It's very scarse. We would meet and gather money to rent (or even buy) one.
However, with the internet, we've been able to know the most recent japanese releases. Of shows that would take 3 or even more years to be officially released in the US.
Please allow me to ask this question: What use is making a perfectly legal show if nobody outside your country is going to see it? Where will you get the reviews, if people won't understand a thing of what's being said? Who will buy your series? But most important, did you plan to earn money thru exportation of the series you're producing?
Maybe you don't want to accept it, but in a certain sense, you owe us. Both the fans and the fansubbers. We're otakus, too. We respect you and appreciate your wonderful work. But please, don't take away from us this thing that we love so much... if you do, the direct consequence is that we'll have to stop watching anime (not because we don't want it, but because we won't be able to see it at all) and stay with the mainstream imports that are no good.
Anime is not widely distributed in other countries apart from the US - like in Latin America. You can see there only the most popular shows like Pokèmon, or Yu Gi Oh. These shows are garbage to the true Otakus. We want the good shows, like Evangelion, Saber Marionette, Cowboy Bebop, Detective Academy... most of us wouldn't have even heard of them if it wasn't for the fansubs.
There is another thing to consider. The "popular" shows that go on open TV usually have more than 100 episodes, and are transmitted daily. But the small shows that have an average of 25 episodes, have very little chance of appearing in open TV. What to say of OVA's? 8, 6, even 3 chapters?
In Mexico the common idea of Anime is a lot of guys fighting with superpowers. That's their idea because that's what they've seen of Anime. Here there are many people with very limited resources. We barely have money for cable TV, much less for satellite TV where the specialized anime channels are.
Please. Don't kill the worldwide Anime community.
Sincerely,
your fans.
I'm in the UK and a well known Gundam fanboy (my name is based on Gundam and FMA). Bandai have totally given upon Gundam in Europe and now you can get very little but import manga from Amazon and DVDs which wont play on all DVD players (region crap). So I have to fansub the series, but I do go out of my way to buy all the Gundam models and mangas I want, or even don't want in some cases. Bandai and Sunrise earn more money through Gunpla (Gundam models) then they do through DVD sales. So clearly I'm putting my money back into the series through "alternative" ways. Many people work the same way as I do.
I like muppets.
It appears that the controversy here is over copyright infringement when the "fansubbing group" releases an entire video with their translated subtitles attached to them. While I agree this is copyright infringement, I would also like to point out that, according to the Berne Convention Article 8, translating copyrighted works is the exclusive right of the copyright holder.
I would love to hear of any legal precedent that says that this doesn't apply in the case of translating Japanese audio to English text.
So is this 'fansubbing' thing only for Anime? Are there fansubbings of regular movies? Because if there aren't, it would be a great idea. Hmmm... there's a lot of great Russian movies that I would love my American friends to see. *lightbulb*
There are several subtleties to the fansubbing debate. The "legal" one is that, in general, respectable fansubbers only work on series that have no official distributer in the US - that is to say, the only way to get them is to buy DVD's from Japan. There are also a number of "orphaned" series that were aired years (sometimes decades) ago, and the financial incentive of bringing them to the US is small. Therefore, the anime-watching community has no recourse *other* than buying DVD's from Japan...or getting the fansubbed versoins.
The second aspect is quality. That's right - quality. Having compared fansubs and "officially" subtitled version, I can say with confidence that fansub groups do an amazing job, and, in general, the quality of their work is *much* higher than those of the official translators. And this is not hard to see - fansubbers are doing it for love, so they try very hard to convey the shades of meaning, and even provide cultural explanatory notes to some aspects of the translation. You just don't get that on an official DVD (especially, for those who have read the article, ADV's). The official distributer wants to make money, so slapping the subtitles together makes sense.
But, you will argue, what about the English dub - they had to put money into that.... That's true. The problem is that your average anime fan would rather stare at goatsex.se for 8 hours than listen to 1/2 hour of English dubs. To put it bluntly, dubs are horrible. They are sometimes less horrible that others, but overall, they are impossible to listen to once you've heard the Japanese. The reason for this is that Japanese anime is voiced by professional voice actors called "seiyuu". They go to schools to train to be voice actors. Many seiyuu become celebrities, and having a good "voice cast" can be an important promotion point for a given series. No equivalent exists in the English voice acting community, or at the very least, the really good peopl are not doing work on anime. Consider - recent Disney shows have used voice talents from famous Hollywood actors - for, literally, the "voice" recognition aspect. This does not mean that those screen actors are qualified to convey emotions and feelings using just their voice.
Thus, aside from the legality and relative permanence of storage, official anime DVD's don't have much going for them. True fans prefer the Japanese audio anyway, and the fansubbers do a beter job with the translations.
The problem here is similar to the rest of the copyright debate - greedy people who put out trash, and then use legal action to force people to give them money (ok, ok, no one is holding a gun to your head, but they certainly make it so that the only legal way to have the product you want is to go through their crap)
I can definitely vouch for the fact that English fansubs circulate among Japanese users, I've downloaded some with Japanese filenames from Japanese P2P users. I would imagine that the big central fansub torrent sites are more convenient to get stuff from than messing with WinMX/Winny, especially if the subbing group uses OGM or something similar so the subs can be turned off.
Omnes arx vestrum sunt adiuncta nobis.
HECTO? Wow man, you are an old timer. Did you know that fansubs are online these days? :) Next you'll be warning us about Artic Fansubs.
Most modern groups spend a lot of time on quality control, and the end result is pretty comperable to the professional releases (sometimes better, sometimes worse). The only ones you have to watch out for are the speed subbers, who try to get a show translated and out on the next the next DAY after it airs in Japan. Fortunatly, these groups are easy to spot because they tend to have a bunch of new shows out that the other groups don't have yet (IE, they're on foobar-120 while everyone else is releasing foobar-119).
I read the internet for the articles.
The moderation on the parent comment
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Moderation -1
30% Troll
30% Flamebait
30% Underrated
is the reason I don't take Slashdot seriously anymore. Apart from the questionable arithmetic, I think Clay Shirky said it best:
WR Byat did group theory with nuerotics -- discovered that neurotics were working as a group to defeat therapy. He couldn't resolve whether this was a group activity or individual activity.
How Byat defined the behaviours that defeated the therapy:
* Vilification of external enemies... Creates cohesion. Members who are most paranoid are best at identifying enemies.
* Veneration of a religious symbol. Go into a Tolkein newsgroup and diss Two Towers -- see what happens. Even though it's supposed to be about discussing Tolkein, they'll just flame you, because you're interfering with the religious text.
How does it feel to become exactly what you claim to hate? Of course I'm not expecting sincere answers here, just rude one-liners and snappy comebacks.
Ten years ago, it would have never been thought of to see anime plentiful in stores like HMV (a music and video store chain in the Commonwealth), the video department of Best Buy, or to see entire companies acquiring rights to anime on a monthly basis and releasing professional copies every single month. Of course now, it is reality and many of us spend oodles of money buying anime on DVD and enjoying it on a daily basis.
What has also changed is fansubbing. Years ago, you would have had to go on the Internet to see who was distributing what, mail them a VHS tape, and then wait a few weeks for a copy of whatever series you wanted. It was a slow process and I remember a few times having to do that in order to get copies of certain titles.
These days, it's as simple as going to a website, finding a torrent, and then download the series. With hard drives becoming larger and cheaper, broadband Internet access being provided to millions of people around the world, and with write-able DVDs providing gigabytes of space on a single disc, it's really easy to download anime today without having to worry about space or time.
The process has changed too. Today, anime fansubbers have people working in Japan ripping digital television feeds, encoding them for use on computer, have them sent to Japan, and then the fansubbers go to work at it, having it done in a period of a few days.
Beforehand, most would have had to wait for the laserdisc to come available, and then it would be translated by hand, timed, then the script would be checked before the master copy was made on to a SVHS or VHS tape.
The huge difference here besides speed is the fact that ten years ago, the fansubbers themselves knew each other by face and lived rather close-by in most cases, whereas today most of the fansubbers live on six different points of the planet instead of six kilometres from each other.
However, fansubbers today lack class.
If you paid attention to what I said two paragraphs ago, fansubbers ten years ago would have had to wait for a laserdisc to come available in Japan before being able to do their work. That would have meant having to pay for a copy, which would mean that at the very least the fansubbers were paying for a copy of the series.
The huge difference here is that fansubbers do not pay for a copy of the anime they subtitle. In fact, unlike their former analogue counterparts, all their work is done in digital means, and there is very little loss to quality of the video when they release their works.
Ever looked at a fansub VHS copy of your favourite series and then seen it on DVD or a master VHS copy? Do you notice that the quality is VASTLY different? Do you notice that the translation is generally better?
Compare a fansub copy of Mahoromatic to the same episode on DVD. Notice how the image quality is similar? Notice how the sound is somewhat similar?
Fansubbers today think they're doing the right thing by promoting a series and of course, at the same time throw their dicks around when they're the first to release a certain series. They plaster their names all over the series during the openings as if they're involved with the anime series itself, when in fact they're not.
Their idea of having their releases with the best quality what so ever does not make themselves look all that great when you take a sober look at things. The incentive years ago was that you'd get a copy of the series on VHS from a fansub group, then once a copy was licensed, you'd record over your fansub copy and then buy the legitimate product.
I have met many friends who do not do that. They collect anime on nothing but recordable CDs and DVDs. And it cannot just be my friends, as I know numerous of people out there do not buy the DVDs once they're licensed and still continue to watch the series via their fan subbed copies.
To make matters worse, fansubbers today are all kids. Just like kids, they squabble over stupid little things and get into a
modern fansubbing scene is nothing more than the next warez scene.
Yeah, I have to agree there. My girlfriend a few years a go was into Fushigi Yugi and fan subbers were fighting over who was going to do it - when the translation was imminent anyway. Then there was the race to sub the Ah My Goddess movie - seriously, how would that NOT be picked up?
I think the biggest problem is the anime fan/fansubber has changed. There's tons of obscure pretty cool anime out there that has yet to be translated, but no fansubbers are picking them up. It's like they only go after commercially viable anime. Which is a shame really, because fansubs were always special to me - like I was watching something that was too oddball for Americans. Seems to me fan subbers also used to have a more fun attitude when doing their projects too, that shows through in the differences between older and more modern subs as well.
Anyway I wouldn't say the market no longer needs fansubbing, it needs what fansubbing USED to be, not what it is today.
We have, until now, always beleived that the companies knew this and were SUPPORTIVE of our efforts at getting the american populace intrested in Anime. Often major distributors use the popularity of a fansub to figure out what to take the trouble to make official translations. We are the market and the advertisers. We did more even than Pokemon to get Americans intrested in Anime. We want good translation to be available on the shelves at blockbuster and many of us regularly send email to such chains making such requests. We always thought we were not just tolerated, but even appriciated. (The "leaks" of some scripts furthered this beleif.) We tried our best not to interfere with the ligitimate distribution channels.
If you see a fansub Anime, it WILL include screens, possibly at the beginning and end, possibly cutting the Anime like commercials on broadcast telivision, imploring all users of the file NOT to distribute after liscensing, often this is followed up with a request for the viewer to BUY the DVD once it is out. Most of us do. I will continue to buy liscensed Anime, and I will continue to download fansubs, but only from companies that HAVN'T sent their cease and disist letters. I won't fansub your stuff if you don't want me to, but I also won't buy it.
The announcement BTW to many of us felt like being hit in the groin with a 2x4. We were shocked and truly hurt. Perhaps we were delusional about the companies views of us, but we felt betrayed. I hope that this isn't the beginning of the end but hope is a thin, and insubstantual thing. I'm not sure it is enough to hold up the community. I am glad you are here with me Sam, here at the end of all things
Little Brother, watching the watchers