Slashdot Mirror
Women on Sex and Videogames
KillerBetties.com continues to produce interesting female oriented gaming commentary. Their latest piece is entitled Sex and Videogames, with several female gamers commenting on the likes of Leisure Suit Larry, the Anarchy Online 'Play Me' ads, and the breast size of electronic actors. From the article:"Do you think the shift towards breeding game designers in college with specialized degrees is going to detract from the casual-gaming young female? Companies so intent on hiring people with only complete devotion to videogames... I didn't know I wanted to make games until my last year of college."
here's a game guaranteed to get your girl off ^_^;;
finally stoner videogame boyfriends and needy nontechie girlfriends can be 100% on the same page!
slashdotters are allowed to play as much as they like.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
Telka: Too artificial...
Staci: Her breasts don't bother me at all but the artist could have actually made her pretty.
Lila: For some odd reason, I think females notice boobs on a character more then males.
Staci: Her tummy is too flat.
Telka: Give her some sagging breasts, some child bearing hips... if it was more life like... I think it'd be more appealing.
More appealing for who? Not me.
Well, women are slowly getting into games. But until they make a larger market share forget any changes. Guys, go buy another game tonight to keep status quo.
This poor child has to face both stereotypes.
Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.
SEX SELLS
Women constantly complain about boobs in games, but look at the cover of women's magazines: boobs. They clearly like looking at boobs too.
Gordon Freeman is "cute"?
They just totally ruined the ass-kicking aspect of the character for me!
It's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys.
Or, in other words "Whaaaaa! Women are discriminated against because they have to make a choice! I require benefits to pad reality so my choice not to devote my life to my art is easier!"
Look, ladies. You either want to play with the big boys or you don't. You can have a career in tech, or a family and a pseudo-carrier. Even maternity/parental leave won't make up for the fact that taking a year out is virtually inconceivable in an industry where 1% downtime is a joke if it's proposed and a disaster if it happens
Even if it that weren't the case men will always outperform women in business (any business, games included) because the choice of carrier or family is one luxury men don't have. That right girls they don't have a choice. Women can have a family or a career. Men can have a career or a bottle of Listerine in a brown bag on the street.
Al Lowe, the creator of the original (and who had absolutely nothing to do with this POS) said this about MCL:
Yeah, right.
These women must not read any womens magazines as they are just as 'bad' if not 'worse'. Of course, they could just be jealous that they do not get as much attention as they think they should.
Begin Quote:
Sarah: Here's another rant on sex in videogame advertising. It's an endless cycle, girls don't play because the ads are clearly geared towards men. They don't feel like game development is a good place to be. They don't join the industry to change things, so things stay the same.
Telka: Sexuality in ads will exist as long as you have uncreative minds clamoring away on the idea "
that their audience is entirely male."
How many guys look and behave like Duke Nukem or most other male characters in video games?
Do we play those games because we wish we were big juiced-up tough guys or is it just funny and fun to play? Are we worried that if girls see Duke that they'll expect us to look and act like him?
Anyway, you can't prevent what guys find physically attractive in females. The reverse is also true. If I'm an ugly bastard, that doesn't mean all male characters in video games should also be ugly bastards.
Why did the interviewer allow it to degenerate into a political discussion? Hell, they couldn't keep their minds on the topic for 30 mintues and we a susposed to respect their opinions?
... I was fooled by the liberal propaganda that Kerry actually had a shot in hell and I voted for him -- which made his losing all the more devastating.
"Telka: You'd be surprised... not to offend anyone here if you did vote for Bush... but look how many people voted for him because "he prays". That's it... *shakes head*
Staci: I don't want to talk about elections
Trisha: Understanding a sound bite about the president is easier than understanding the hundreds of games that come out yearly.
Trisha: Bummed at the election as well."
Sarah: I think it's not so much that she's almost naked with big boobs, more that it doesn't fit with the rest of the game.
The character is a large-breasted, scantily-clad wench...at a bar...how does that not fit the rest of the game? Did they want the bar wench to be a 6'2" paladin with silver armor and a flaming sword?
http://www.bynarystudio.com
In defense of Anarchy Online's marketing ads. The game is a cyberpunk game and you always have half naked girls in sci fi. (Of course this is a fairly accurate stereotype).The game has been in a downward slide for some time. Even back when I played for about 6 months there were only like 3 servers. Now they are letting people play for free for a year. Lastly I had several friends online and real life that played the game and were girls.
I agree with the comment about at least making the video game girls attractive. My friend and I just recently played through the second Baldurs Gate and I choose the Cleric and she was very ugly. Even my friends wife was like, "Man she is ugly!"
I was expecting
article = women.opinion("sex").strcat(women.opinion("video games"));
not
article = women.opinion("sex+videogames");
My women don't play video games. I think a two part article on sex and video games would be much more useful than sex in video games.
Direct away from face when opening.
I don't see why video-game companies are trying to appeal to a non-existent audience. We all know for a fact that women aren't real.
i'm complicated.
#1, that's most frequently used as a greeting, so critiquing it's common meaning is like doing the same to "what's up?" which has little to do with physical direction.
#2, i'm young and from the east coast, both lend to a little gruff in phrasing that's not especially cruelty.
#3, I'm fallible, and there are differences between my ideals and how well i uphold them.
#4, the Lord's peace is a pretty big picture, and likely includes some contrary ingredients..
good troll tho.
On the other hand, not that many males are portrayed realistically either. Seen NFL Street Big? Yeah, those gorillas are realistic.
Now if you'll excuse me, I left Virtual Valerie in a compromising position.
Do not touch -Willie
Screw Women's boobs and such... by that I mean keep doing whatever they want with women models in games... just don't make the male characters look absolutely HORRENDOUS while making women 'breathtaking'... Guys care about fashion too, but apparently the only male fashion in most games is, at best, a trenchcoat... or some other generic crappy look... I dont mean make Male Dresses... but there's more to men's wardrobes then Jeans, t-shirts, and trenchcoats... Hardest thing about playing RPG's nowadays is the designers probably spend 5-10 more hours on female models/clothing (EXCLUSING time where the computer 'idles' on these models for some reason) for every hour they spend on a male model's design or clothing... Anyone remember the original EverQuest? Male human's? out of like 10 human male faces, only 2? maybe? Where actually 'appealing' to male players?
Surely there is a lot that can be said about "Sex in Games" from the female perspective. But it should be said by a woman with a brain who writes an article because she has something meaningful to say, and knows how to bring an argument.
So my mind boggles why /. felt it necessary to link to this stuff.
...is on the US White Male 14-29 demographic. Give men some credit. We can objectify women in any number of ways beyond gravity-defying boobs and tiny butts. There's a whole section of the population that maintains the height of female aesthetics is expresseed by the term badonkadonk. And there are plenty of fans of a biologically plausible, no-back-pain boob solution out there as well. If your game is so lame you need the resonance supplied by the ultimate in synthetic breasts, a G4 Spot and a waist the likes of which I haven't seen since -- well, okay, I saw one this afternoon at the office, and she was an archaeologist, wearing combat boots no less, but that's neither here nor there.
anyway, the point is that we've hit the point where not all male figures in these things look like the intimidating Testosterone fest of Duke Nukem; so why do the females have to be equally off-putting in their irreal sexuality?
oh yeah, right, 14-29 demographic.
So the solution is simple: require white males under thirty to purchase video games only when escorted by womyn or people of color. Come on guys, it's about the gameplay. If you want to just beat your joystick, teh intardnet awaits, with every kind of objectionable objectification.
Anyway, you can't prevent what guys find physically attractive in females.
So am I the only guy who finds, for example, fully clothed women to generally be sexier than h07 ch1xx0r5 in bikinis? And who is actually turned on more by realistic proportions than by women who look like they've got basketballs glued to their chests?
I think not. Yet there seem to be remarkably few game publishers catering to my tastes.
You should really read the credentials of the women involved in the chat. I posted the two guests credentials (one of whom works for EA) and linked the regulars credentials, including mine. We are hardly women "who have no qualifications to talk about the subject."
:)
I was surprised Slashdot linked to the chat, but they obviously found something interesting in our chat. I found the chat interesting and we had a lot of fun in the chat, which I think came across well and is *what* our site is about - fun. So if you don't know what fun is, you probably shouldn't visit our site.
Killer Betties - www.killerbetties.com
There were a number of studies done recently in Australia that showed that men also get side-tracked career wise if it looks like they will put their family first at any stage.
Australia is one of a number of supposedly first world countries that doesn't currently have a fertility rate that is anywhare approaching replacement levels. One of the major issues is that people put off having children and one of the more frequently given reasons are economic.
At some point we need to wake up to real across the board family friendly policies in the workplace for men and women - unless of course we want to outsource our population generation to the 3rd world along with all our jobs.
Sara
Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
In the last decade I have noticed a significan tincrease in the number of women involved in roleplay conventions, largely due to an increase in games that focus more on characterisation, political machinations and problem solving over dice rolling and simply slaying things.
Which is not to say that us chicks don't enjoy a bit of hack-n-slash from time to time, but overall we don't find it particularly compelling hour on hour.
Oddly enough, games that apparently did well in the female demographics were games like Myst and The Sims. They focus more on relationships and problem solving and not so much on killing stuff. They were also games that appealed to non-gamers generally.
They were also games that support picking them up and playing for a few minutes if that's all you have, but will also let you play for hours if you can. As someone with lots of other responsibilities in my life, it can be incredibly frustrating to playing a game and being unable to find the save point before you have to leave the game to deal with something more important. A good example would be one section in the middle of Sphinx last year where it was about an hour between save points the first time through in one area, with complex jumps, stealth sections, pattern based puzzle sequences and several combats. As another example, in WoW my primary character is Lvl 27, my husband's is Lvl 36, we started on the same day but I do most of the housework because he can't drag himself away from the computer.
Most women who game probably class themselves as casual gamers rather than hardcore, if they want to capture the femlae market it's possibly more important to focus on that aspect rather than how much cleavage the female characters are showing.
Sara
Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
From article: "I took pride in the fact that I was the only person to write reviews consistently for IGN who was a female. When I got added to their editorial staff list (because I was promoted to run their vaults), I was the only female on those lists. If another female had come in, I would have felt odd about it. But I would have needed to check myself too."
I think it's interesting that they admit to doing the same that males often get blamed for. Being a "newer" market for women, it feels strange or awkward when a women is in the ranks. This isn't to say she shouldn't be there and if they can pull their own weight than so be it. At least they admit that it seems strange for them too.
Huzzah! It never really occurred to me until recently, but I am nothing like Solid Snake. I don't workout. I don't know how to kick that much ass. Given a choice between an modest IT staffer like myself, and a real-life Solid Snake, most woman would not even notice me.
So, where is the male gamer lobby insisting that video game heros should all be flabby, unable to complete a mile run in less than 20 minutes, etc? While I do find the portrayal of the female form to be rediculous in video games, I wish that all the women who are offended by such portrayals acknowledge that it isn't a female only phenomenon.
Cause it has boobs in it :P
O gawd please... I'm only ashamed that trash came from the hands of one of our own kind...
I don't like Valve tech or how Valve treats their community, but Half-Life 2 was a thing of beauty. There were both male and female resistant fighters, dressed pretty identically.
And Alyx? If Gordon didn't have his HEV suit, he'd probably dress like that.
They also went for realism all across the board, and although the breasts are perfect, they aren't DDD.
I would even guess that we will start to see more fairness there as games get more realistic. Notice how big they were in Q3A -- but everything was big, guns, armor, everything, because if it wasn't big, you wouldn't see it -- computers weren't capable of particularly fine levels of detail.
No, what I want to see is games that aren't so damn American. If I can blow up a zombie, will seeing some skin really traumatize me so much? Only in America.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Telka: Sexuality in ads will exist as long as you have uncreative minds clamoring away on the idea that their audience is entirely male
Well, while the majority of the market is male, I know a _lot_ of female gamers that have no issue with the gameplay and advertisement. People say GTA:SA is bad, yet my ex and my current girlfriend that both come over to my house to game on a nightly basis. And they think killing the hookers is a great idea.
Staci: The women in the industry are doing their best to expand the minds of the men in the industry and its having an impact.
I highly doubt no matter what the makeup of the tech team is that PR, advertising and R&D are all dominated by men. I'm sure there are plenty of very smart women out there that know what sells that are making these calls.
Trisha: Still, I don't think that you would have seen any woman playing video games 5 years ago.
Rubbish, 5 years ago me and my ex gamed every night. As did the many girls that came into the video store that I worked in part time in those days
Sarah: Ugh! my first thought is, "they're naked!!" My second is, "what does that even mean? I got implants? You can play me?"
Have you ever seen a trimspa commercial? This particular ad is obviously making fun of anna nicole smith. And she wasn't naked. And implants are part of the game.
Everyone's cute. Try Master Chief with a ginormous head and a tiny torso. Difference is, Chief will stay cute (energy shield keeps his armor sparkling-clean) while Gordon Freeman will end up all bloodstained, scarred, and pissy. You wouldn't like him when he's pissy.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
...they don't. For the same reason that Real Men Don't Watch Harry Potter. The sex has nothing to do with it -- a lot of the better games are gender-neutral (except maybe only being able to play as a guy), but girls don't play because videogames are a Guy Thing.
Ladies, get down off your soapbox and onto the couch in front of Halo[2]. Yeah, it'd be better with girls joining the industry, but I think it's close enough, especially considering that this is undeniably a Guy Thing (press B for Bludgeon if you need reminding).
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
It's not an interview, and you're on slashdot complaining about someone else's discussion "degenerating"?
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
The important thing you have to know here is the difference between examples of exceptions to the standard and what the standards are. We aren't talking about women who *already* game here. We are talking about women who don't game but might enjoy it, but will never know because ads like that turn them off or tell them nothing about the game, etc. The game developers say they want to attract more of a female audience but they aren't doing anything to do that. Women who already game are obviously fine with the offering (although there are things I personally don't like, but I generally can overlook them if the game is good enough), so when we are discussing these topics, we aren't talking about women who alread play games. We are talking about the same women the game developers are talking about. That huge percentage of the market that looks at video games as a childs toy or a man's realm -- not because those two things are true but because that is how they are marketing them.
Killer Betties - www.killerbetties.com
Halo, anyone? I'm told that Nightmare Armor is sexy.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Another thing is the role of men vs the role of women in games. While many games have moved forward, you're still far more likely to find a strong, tough male hero rescuing a screaming, weak female than the reverse.
The problem is not that games or other media establish negative stereotypes, but rather that they perpetuate them. Unfortunately for game companies, however, if they continue to perpetuate these stereotypes, they will find female interest in their products elusive at best.
That's it. I'm no longer part of Team Sanity.
I don't think that "working for EA", or "playing MMOGs" makes one particularly qualified to talk about the subject of "Sex in Games". But I'm an academic, so perhaps I set different standards than you do.
On the other hand, I am glad we agree that there was no reason for /. to link to this article. Personally, I think people should place on the web whatever they think might be entertaining or interesting for a passing visitor, whether it is a joke, a transcript from a chat session, or a well-thought-out article. But a site that pretends to link to the quality stuff out there, should set different standards.
He said he hadn't had a byte in three days. I had a short, so I split it with him.
I need to have a word with you. We must have a long talk.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Um, no. The Duke Nukem shape is not physiologically possible for any human being.
The strange thing is that while the ultra-hunky heroes are seen as a "wish-fulfillment" figure for guys ("gee, I wish I had muscles like him and knew how to kick ass"), the ultra-feminine heroines are seen as a "jealousy/envy" figure by women ("they've no right to have a heroine looking like that - she makes me feel inferior"). Me, I reckon that speaks volumes about the way most men and women think. Men are much more "pack animals" who collect in mutually-supportive groups, and status rubs off from who you're with. Whilst women are more likely to hang out in larger groups, they're classically a group of mutual competitors. I know this doesn't always hold true, but it's a good approximation.
Grab.
It seems to be more a confidence/security thing.
IMO in general women (or perhaps just the louder/whinier ones) tend to view obstacles as problems whereas in general men view obstacles as challenges or even something fun...
I don't even think that guys playing games go "I wish I had muscles like him etc". In fact during the game they are more likely to subconsciously go "This is _me_! This is me kicking ass! Yeah!! Eat that!". And don't forget "I 0wn3d J00!".
I wonder whether most women actually see it as a problem or it's just the whiny ones.
Duke nukem voice:
Staci: The women in the industry are doing their breast... err best
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm sitting in a computer lab spouting off witty one-liners right now.
I also throw money at strippers before using my shrink gun on them. (You know what I mean! No jokes!)
The game developers say they want to attract more of a female audience but they aren't doing anything to do that.
Actually, they ARE doing. Maybe not always with so good success, but at least something. And just look at all these dancing games, how you can choose to play girl/woman character instead of male etc.
I think it's just the whiny ones. I think the average female is more likely to feel offended by a male that neglects her for a video game, than the size of the breasts of a character in a video game.
Part of modern education is the victimization of women and minorities by white males, though, which creates more than a few "whiny ones." Instead of contextualizing the historical injustices practiced against these groups, the culture tends to suffer from some kind of guilt that sees malice everywhere when a female is depicted sexually, or there aren't "enough" black people on the board of some company.
You make an imaginary demographic (women who don't play games because ads offend them) and ramble incoherently about it. Here's an idea: why don't you get off of your lazy, uneducated ass, and establish some actual basis for your conjectures in the future? Once you determine why females on average don't play these games, you can then attempt to correct the situation. Here's a hint: many females play games like the Sims, while fewer play games like Quake. Why? Because the Sims is a social game, and Quake involves killing things. Hey, do you think, maybe, that more girls would game if "game" meant talk to each other in artificial worlds whose point isn't to kill things? No, of course not. It's those large breasts. *drool*
Other games popular with females: word games, tetris games, card games, DDR, and casino games. Go take a look at some numbers for these games; you will notice that there exists a very large female game playing population. There are just fewer females that want to blow shit up for six hours at a time.
I don't know where all the anger and insults come from -- it's shocking to say the least. Oh right, it's the internet. Why don't you come to E3 and talk to me in person and see how that goes?
Do people really believe that having worked 3 years in the industry every single day for hours upon hours a day, sacrificing any other semblence of life, wouldn't give me some kind of expertise on the industry I work in? It's certainly more than an academic would do on the subject. I do have an intimate understanding of the way companies market, their target demographics and who does and doesn't game and why. How do I have this? Because I've worked with all of the industry, from marketing to gamers. I know this industry better than I know my own husband.
Killer Betties - www.killerbetties.com
Here's some hard reading for anyone who actually wants to be educated about this topic.
5 84 502398/qid=1107538061/sr=8-7/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i7_xgl 14/104-5871584-4685535?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1
Killer Betties - www.killerbetties.com
I'm too lazy to create an account, but I have to say something (Sarah from the discussion).
We were given a topic to talk about. Sex in Videogames. Not sex in women's magazines, television commercials, or soaps. Not making videogames more gender-inclusive. These are all great topics, but it is NOT what we were talking about.
Stop calling us unqualified, too. I make games. I play games. 'Nuff said.
HAH!
You're a woman in desguise!
Shut up bitch,
you're a shame for the female population
my original post was not really informative, nor was it redundant to anything. overrated was about the only modding i could agree with. not ONE mod went with 'funny' which >i think was the obvious choice.
mods are obviously reading primarily at +2, because before i got this karma bonus, i rarely got modded one way or the other, now i get modded all the time. i've gotta agree with some other ppl i see posting around here, read at a low threshhold PLEASE when modding, because there's so many worthy posts that stay at 0 or 1, and far fewer +3s or +4s than +5s. let's get some better dispersement of modding rather than all going for the same post.
and whoever modded my alsalaamalaiykum response troll is out of their head. THIS is a troll, that was an honest answer.
Enjoy your Listerine,
Tech Public Policy stuff
I'm so sick of hearing about "girls in gaming". Girls play games, guys do to. One of the beautiful things about playing games online is that gender/race really doesn't matter. If you want less half naked chicks in games, then don't buy games with half naked chicks. It's that simple.
Stuff like this:
Do you think the shift towards breeding game designers in college with specialized degrees is going to detract from the casual-gaming young female? Companies so intent on hiring people with only complete devotion to videogames... I didn't know I wanted to make games until my last year of college."
Is just silly. What the hell does it matter to the casual-gaming young female? So companies want to hire people with complete devotion to what they do, how is that different from any other industry?
I'm not the original AC who replied to you...
I don't know where all the anger and insults come from -- it's shocking to say the least. Oh right, it's the internet.
Actually you come off as very hateful twards men in many of your posts/statements.
Why don't you come to E3 and talk to me in person and see how that goes?
Is that some kind of threat twards the original poster? Somehow I doubt you are very threating.
Do people really believe that having worked 3 years in the industry every single day for hours upon hours a day, sacrificing any other semblence of life, wouldn't give me some kind of expertise on the industry I work in?
You can say whatever you want, but what did you work in? Marketing? Programming? Design?
It's certainly more than an academic would do on the subject. I do have an intimate understanding of the way companies market, their target demographics and who does and doesn't game and why. How do I have this? Because I've worked with all of the industry, from marketing to gamers. I know this industry better than I know my own husband.
Maybe you should work on your relationship with your husband.
You mention that women don't play games because they are turned off by the advertising, but most women over 21 view gaming as a male-only "geek" thing. While those under 21 view it as gender-neutral (that has been my experence anyway). I think there is a portion of the female population that will never play games regardless of advertising because they view it not only as a male activity but as a "nerd/no life/loser" type activity.
The more women that grow up with gaming consoles, and computers in their households, the more this view will be changed (as it has with computers over the past 10 years).