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Yahoo! Sues Xfire For Patent Infringement
CheesyPeteza writes "GameSpot is reporting
that the popular game messenger client Xfire is being sued by Yahoo for patent infringement. The patent was originally granted to two Yahoo employees who developed GameProwler for Yahoo Messenger. It describes a system which "allows users to use a game server in connection with a messenger server to permit 'buddies' to know when other 'buddies' are playing games online, and easily join such games." One of these employees then left Yahoo to work for Xfire. Xfire denies infringing on Yahoo's patent, but with the costs estimated at $2 million to defend this cas, will the startup company Xfire be able to stand up to the Yahoo giant?"
We know
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
Doesn't Steam do this as well, using its friends list?
See yesterday's artcle!
She loves me: 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 She loves me not: 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688BF
Wow, that was a quick dupe!
/ 1835240&tid=123&tid=10
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/05
I'm a big tall mofo.
Duplicate article - even refers to the same source.
This is a dupe from 2 stories down on games.slashdot.org ?? someone alsleep over there?
In a twist on the classic David-and-Goliath formula, Web giant Yahoo! is suing Menlo Park, CA, start-up Xfire for patent infringement. The basis of the complaint, filed last week in US District Court (Northern District of California) and served to Xfire representatives just two days ago, alleges that Xfire is willfully infringing on a patent controlled by Yahoo! Inc.
The patent, referred to as the '125 patent for the last three numbers of US Patent No. 6,699,125 (see screenshots for select pages from the patent documents), was granted to two then-Yahoo! employees Brian Gottlieb and Chris Kirmse on March 2, 2004. As is typical, ownership of inventions by employees remains with the corporation the employees work for. Such ownership rights are usually sealed in hiring contracts signed by the employee when he or she is first brought on.
In the case of the '125 patent, Gottlieb and Kirmse were employed by Yahoo! when they developed certain technologies for a game-specific variation on Yahoo!'s popular Yahoo! Messenger. Yahoo! has been the sole assignee--or owner--of the '125 patent since it was granted.
The complaint describes the Yahoo! Messenger instant message service--in this case, the GameProwler instant messenger application--as one that "allows users to use a game server in connection with a messenger server to permit 'buddies' to know when other 'buddies' are playing games online, and easily join such games."
Xfire offers a client application that allows gamers to chat with other gamers online. It also serves to help quickly facilitate gameplay on remote servers.
"Like the Yahoo! invention," the Yahoo! complaint reads, "this capability allows a user to see other users identified as 'friends' or 'buddies' designated on the user's computer in an instant messenger window. Also, like the Yahoo! invention, this product allows a user to see if a 'friend' or 'buddy' is online with her instant messenger program activated and also to see whether that 'friend' or 'buddy' is playing a game online...
"Defendant has no license or permission from Yahoo! to offer this capability."
The Xfire client was first made available in beta form last year. Xfire recently promoted the fact that it had reached the 1-million-registered-user threshold.
Yahoo!'s GameProwler appears to be the application it feels was compromised by the XFire client. Industry sources tell GameSpot that Xfire currently has a patent pending for its service.
Key to the complaint is Chris Kirmse, now Xfire's vice president of engineering. Yahoo! claims that "after Kirmse joined defendant [Xfire], defendant began to develop, test, and offer instant messenger 'client' software and a messenger server that, when operated with game servers, offers the capabilities of the invention."
Kirmse joined Xfire in August 2003. He had left the employ of Yahoo! some years earlier, according to sources.
Neither Yahoo! employees connected with the complaint nor attorneys representing Yahoo! in this matter would comment on the legal proceedings. Mike Cassidy, Xfire CEO, also declined requests for comment by GameSpot.
As this complaint is just one week old, no "next steps" are certain. Lawyers familiar with patent law have told GameSpot a case like this could cost up to $2 million to defend and take up to two years to fully adjudicate.
Impact on Xfire, a company founded in 2002 by Dennis "Thresh" Fong, Mike Cassidy, and Max Woon, is unclear. Likely, the company remains focused on customer acquisition over revenue growth--which makes defense of such a complaint problematic.
Yahoo!, on the other hand, recently reported it had earned $372.5 million on revenues of $1.08 billion for the most recently concluded quarter. Prospects of a drawn-out legal imbroglio, therefore, wouldn't seem to threaten Yahoo!'s well-being. Some industry sources have even speculated the lawsuit suggests a possible first step toward overtures by Yahoo! to buy out the gaming start-up.
How will David fare against Goliath in this case? GameSpot will keep you posted.
how about you guys just reference your own articles and call them recursive?
Note to self: No more arguing with the faithful.
...Slashdot sues itself for post-infringement.
Pulp Audio Weekly - Geek News and Reviews
Well, then Gamespy is guilty. Buddy Tracker and Chat system. Integrated (if you are subscribed)
So is Steam. Buddy system and Chat system. (integrated)
So are half-a-dozen other serverbrowsers that have a buddy list.
What a stupid patent! This is why patents should not be allowed to exist in software.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
"but with the costs estimated at $2 million to defend this cas, will the startup... "
Is that some sorta fancy lawyer word?
This, for once, seems like one of those rare cases where a boycott could work. Nobody's actually going to boycott Microsoft or the RIAA, and each of those has so many customers even if a bunch did leave they wouldn't care. Yahoo can't afford to have its customers leaving quite so much, and it might well be possible to talk people into dropping their use of yahoo based on displeasure with a decision to compete in the courts rather than the marketplace-- after all, it isn't like anyone will *really* miss Literati.
What do you think?
Oh you mean, kind of like when you join IRC and you say "hey John, you're there? how about we go on Playsite for a nice game of gin eh?"
I was doing that (or some version of that, before Playsite was around) for at least a decade. Which leads to the following questions:
Does is look like prior art or what?
Since I'm not particularly bright for having "invented" that method, and everybody and their dogs has been doing it forever because it's freaking obvious, does this patent look like yet another something-that-I-may-sue-someone-over-in-the-futur e patent application?
Shouldn't they replace the monkeys at the USPTO by humans at some point?
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
Well, they acquired it in September, but they just recently made it into spyware and adware (even for registered users - until they stirred up a shitstorm in the process).
How did Yahoo! get so much money, anyway? WTF do they do? What have they ever done, or made? I think there's an untold story as it relates to Yahoo!'s rise to success, and I strongly suspect it has to do with an intimate relationship with spammers.
Person A: You know what this article is? ...Repeat.
Person B: Repeat.
A: You know what this article is?
B: Repeat.
A: You know what this article is?
B:
A: You know what this article is?
B: You know who is in the bathroom?
A: No, Who is on first.
[person B stabs person A]
CURTAIN LOWERS
~FIN~
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Dont you think the wording of the patent is a little vauge? I mean bnet, steam and gamespy arcade all have features where your friends,buddies, whatever know when your playing and where. Sounds like a case of trying to get back at a former employee to me. Now that i think about it, doesnt the new aim client have games?
Like the saying goes, never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes. -Pyrotic
They still do. People with accounts at FICS or ICC and you can choose to be notified when a buddy signs on.
I'd call that prior art.
..In other news, 'Postwhore Dupe' sues newr00tic for infringing on his freedom of speech..
--newr00tic pointed out, that Mr. Postwhore abused his position of power, so as to put personas with certain speech -impediments, (i.e. "stutterers") in a bad light.
In the court proceedings that followed this incident, Postwhore tried to get the panel of jurors off-track, by starting an "Linux rox; *doze suxx0rz!! *omfg* *rofl* *rofl*" -flamewar; to no avail..
(ed.note: Dupe was ACTUALLY seen 'rolling on the floor, -laughing', for a few minutes there. Needless to say; this didn't strengthen his credibility..)
A horse can't be sick, you know, even if he wants to.
permit 'buddies' to know when other 'buddies' are playing games online
Is there anything to permit 'editors' to know when other 'editors' are posting articles online?
this patent stuff is going too far.. hopefully they'll mean nothing in europe
When you see a duped story, immediately go and submit it again! Maybe they'll actually listen to our complaining, if we send it in that way. En masse.
If the editors won't Slashdot, Slashdot the editors....
From the article, it looks like there are two problems:
1)Kirmese, one of the Xfire's management, worked for Yahoo and came up with the patent in question while in Yahoo's employment.
2)Whether the implementation of connecting gamers through messenger programs under patent 6,699,125 is really enforceable.
Yahoo is concerned about a former employee using an implementation of connecting gamers together through a messenging service. Somehow, I suspect the patent itself might fall within prior art. The patent was awarded in 2004, and I seem to remember other examples of using messenging services to get games going.
How do you go about patenting notification? Am I to assume thet it's based on a specific way of doing this on the low end of the OSI model or something?
http://www.watacrackaz.com
Let this be a lesson to anyone who thinks big companies will only use patents "defensively". I guess defending the company from competition is part of defensive patent strategy.
All seeing eye has had this functionallity for YEARS, or at least as long as i've been using it.
Anyone find it strange that Yahoo just brought ASE?
Plus, most INGAME clients have this as well, at least, and steam....
Im sure theres many more, but i dont see the point in listing them.
- http://www.milkme.co.uk
An additional note:
I think that replies to both articles posted here and in the previous reference seem to miss the nuances when invoking prior art.
For instance, one had mentioned a "Play Quake" option in ICQ around 1996. Several talk about Battle.net. I'm not certain both are implementations of the Yahoo patent.
Look closely at the patent flow chat (Go to Gamespot article, "view slideshow", second image - press next).
One person starts a game, sends a message using an instant messenger program to an invitee, who receives it using instant messenger, who can use IM to join the game.
My point is if there are small differences in how other programs implemented this system (i.e. how did the inviter create the IM message to the invitee on ICQ "Play Quake"?) then that is enough difference to prevent invoking prior art.
in the U.S.
Why innovate when you can litigate?
Battle.net has "friends" capabilities. In WarIII this equals a buddy list on the right sidebar as well.
/f add phorm
/f list
If you don't count the fact that a visible "list" was a more recent event, buddies for gaming contacts have been available since the early battle.net days:
No.
Next question, please?
Where is this world coming to?
Is someone going to invent patents such as "the ability to take food and put it into your mouth" and companies could sue everybody?
The hip way to get your IP. No ads, ever.
could this be linked to yahoo's recent aquisition of The All Seeing Eye?, which is the best game server browser atm...
I'm a rabbit startled by the headlights of life
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Has anyone considered a lawsuit against the USPTO for issuing frivolous patents, hence necessitating enormous legal costs for the patent "infringers"?
It seems to me that the answer to all of these nightmare software patent cases stem from a single root-cause: The USPTO and its eager use of the "Patent Approved" stamp.
Furthermore, the USPTO has many internal processes which incentivize approval of patents. This culture of easy patenting costs small businesses and consumers billions -- and reduces natural competition.
Has anyone ever sued or thought of suing the USPTO?
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
Sad thing is Yahoo's own gaming buddy system doesn't support anything other than their own Yahoo! games. As a user of Xfire I think it is really awesome, they even allow ingame chat without minimizing and other innovative features. Btw my patent gives me the right to adding comments to articles, expect to hear from my lawyer.
Has the capacity to put two buddies in a game of mshearts, why not sue aol? Oh, right, because aim had it before these clowns...
Open the engine but maintain a license on it.
;)
Duh...
IF you're not copying them then your source will show that. If you are... then you teh sux.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
...have a patent for an IM client for gamers.
Jeeeze.
America STOP. THINK. This is STUPID.
Europe. STOP. THINK. Don't go there.
At this point, maybe they should replace the humans with monkeys...
But seriously, my personal dealings with this
company show them to be even more evil
than MS. Seems like IT is littered with
companies using every means available to
cheat, swindle, steal or rip-off ideas, code,
etc from smaller companies.
So, people, LISTEN UP!!! Stop giving in to this
madness and hurt Yahoo where it hurts most...
in the pocket book. Stop using Yahoo! search,
don't buy or use and software associated with
Yahoo! and don't use Yahoo! groups or mail.
Or ignore the above remarks and go
about your business/personal life in the same
manner. And the result will be more of the same.
Is this service still running? I remember using this to play Motocross Madness 2 when it first came out, on my Celeron 733 with onboard video.. Now I will proceed to sue everyone who walks the same way home from school that I do. Back-Off, get your own shortcut!
In Soviet Russia, Linux compiles you!
why waste a bunch of money on lawers when yahoo could just buy xfire slap on their logo and call it a day! especially since they've really done all the wor
I don understand why legal cases cost so much in the US. Who much does an attorney make for year? How many attorneys are needed for a trial like this?
Doesn't you have the right for a free (paid by gov') layer in the US?
If you know you are right, what would be the problem with litigation, since the looser pays expenses?
DNA in your Linux: DNALinux
sigh
does anyone know if the USPTO is liable if they grant frivilous patents such as this?
i recon the threat of getting sued over handing out daft patents like this might at least offer a glimmer of hope of sanity being restored to the decision making process over there
ICQ had that feature long before yahoo even existed... let alone yahoo messenger.
prior art. tell em to get bent
I would say this is worthy of making the front page, it will give (at its conclusion) a fairly firm idea about how much it costs to defend against an obvious patent.
I would think that yahoo is trying to stop the breakaway company(fissioned company? like in biology? spore?) from utilizing skills developed while at yahoo.
to me, making a games server work, and implimenting a way for people to talk/chat/know when other buddys are on the network is about skills, not patents. it is obvious how to do it, but it may take some time.
bad patent! bad! you stay down boy! (my new dog)
Check journal for info on Anti-TextBook, an idea by me.
i would expect that the patent must be more specific as all the pirate Xbox/PS2 players use Kai....which is pretty much a messenger with arena's for games etc.....perhaps the key to this is the fact that its a plugin to thier messenger product rather than it's main function
WTF - Speak in acronyms already, i can't figure out what you mean otherwise boss
With the patent wars taking place now, primarily I'm thinking of MS trying to box in open source developmnet but this case also applies, I wonder what it would take to assemble a group to just brainstorm possible development tracks, then place patents on those methods, and make those patents freely available under some sort of specialized license (GPL?)
I admit to knowing very little about how patents work, or about the GPL and such, and I know this would cost since filing patents isn't free. But it seems like things are getting so out of hand that the only way to prevent being completely boxed in is either change some patent laws, which seems unlikely, or start trying to proactively file patents with open source developers in mind.
I love my sig.
You have access to a Friends list, as well as a game locator that matches you up with other players looking for the same kind of game.
...starting with the fucktard who approved this patent, and following up with the cunt who approved this one.
...as early as a year ago. I saw "Thresh" there. I wonder if it was patent-related.
<rant>F@#$@ idiots at the PTO!</rant>
AC comments get piped to
This might just work.
Okay, it won't - but at least we get to vent our rage in another way.
I don't know if you guys know, that Xfire is actually owned by Dennis 'Thresh' Fong. Yes, THE Thresh that won Carmack's Ferrari.
"It is not enough," says Justice Douglas, "that an article is new and useful. The Constitution never sanctioned the patenting of gadgets. Patents serve a higher end--the advancement of science. An invention need not be as startling as an atomic bomb to be patentable. But it has to be of such quality and distinction that masters of the scientific field in which it falls will recognize it as an advance." He then quotes the following from an opinion of Justice Bradley's given 70 years before:
"It was never the object of those laws to grant a monopoly for every trifling device, every shadow of a shade of an idea, which would naturally and spontaneously occur to any skilled mechanic or operator in the ordinary progress of manufactures. Such an indiscriminate creation of exclusive privileges tends rather to obstruct than to stimulate invention. It creates a class of speculative schemers who make it their business to watch the advancing wave of improvement, and gather its foam in the form of patented monopolies, which enable them to lay a heavy tax upon the industry of the country, without contributing anything to the real advancement of the arts. It embarrasses the honest pursuit of business with fears and apprehensions of concealed liens and unknown liabilities lawsuits and vexatious accountings for profits made in good faith." (Atlantic Works v. Brady, 1017 U.S. 192, 200 (1882)).
The opinion [of Justice Douglas, I think] concludes: "The attempts through the years to get a broader, looser conception of patents than the Constitution contemplates have been persistent. The Patent Office, like most administrative agencies, has looked with favor on the opportunity which the exercise of discretion affords to expand its own jurisdiction. And so it has placed a host of gadgets under the armour of patents--gadgets that obviously have had no place in the constitutional scheme of advancing scientific knowledge. A few that have reached this Court show the pressure to monopolies to the simplest of devices:
Hotchkiss v. Greenwood, 11 How. 248 (1850): Doorknob made of clay rather than metal or wood, where different shaped doorknobs had previously been made of clay.
Rubber-Tip Pencil Co. v. Howard, 20 Wall, 4998 (1874): Rubber caps put on wood pencils to serve as erasers.
Union Paper Collar Co. v. Van Dusen, 23 Wall. 530 (1875): Making collars of parchment paper where linen paper and linen had previously been used.
Brown v. Piper, 91 U.S. 37 (1875): A method for preserving fish by freezing them in a container operating in the same manner as an ice cream freezer.
Reckendorfer v. Faber, 92 U.S. 347 (1876): Inserting a piece of rubber in a slot in the end of a wood pencil to serve as an eraser.
Dalton v. Jennings, 93 U.S.271 (1876): Fine thread placed across open squares in a regular hair net to keep hair in place more effectively.
Double-Pointed Tack Co. V. Two Rivers Mfg. Co., 109 U.S. 117 (1883)): Putting a metal washer on a wire staple.
Miller v. Foree, 116 U.S.22 (1885): A stamp for impressing initials in the side of a plug of tobacco.
Preston v. Manard, 116 U.S. 661 (1886): A hose reel of large diameter so that water may flow through hose while it is wound on the reel.
Hendy v. Miners' Iron Works, 127 U.S.370 (1888): Putting rollers on a machine to make it movable.
St. Germain v. Brunswick, 135 U.S. 227 (1890): Revolving cue rack.
Shenfield v. Nashawannuck Mfg. Co, 137 U.S. 56 (1890): Using flat cord instead of round cord for the loop at the end of suspenders.
Florsheim v. Schilling, 137 U.S. 64 (1890): Putting elastic gussets in corsets.
Cluett v. Claflin, 140 U.S. 180 (1891) A shirt bosom or dickie sewn onto the front of a shirt.
Adams v. Bellaire Stamping Co., 141 U.S. 539 (1891): A lantern lid fastened to the lantern by a hinge on one side and a catch on the other.
Patent Clothing
hey, i have seen this article. i had heard that this shit was a motherfucking dupe, but now i have found out that the motherfucker was right.
Gamespy Arcade? MSN Messenger? XBOX Live? Steam?
Can we expect all these to disappear.
Have you metaroderated recently?
Doesn't Steam do this as well, using its friends list?
Wait, isn't that PRIOR ART? Then it would make the patent become void. (I think...)
Can anybody tell me who was the [beep] who labelled this "offtopic"? It's TFA text! And signed as AC (no karma whoring).
(note: It wasn't me who posted it, just in case you thought)
As an x user of yahoo instant messanger and a current x-fire user, I see no grounds for yahoo to be suing. Surely someone who has a patent on a toothpick cannot sue someone who builds and sells toothpick houses...the houses are a different product all together.
X-Fire has way more features than Yahoo! messenger and is way more useful for "in game" chat.
For example, while I am playing Call of Duty Multiplayer and someone talks to me on xfire a small unobtrusive box appears near the bottom of my screen telling me that someone is talking to me. I can then hit scr lk + x and reply to them without exiting or "windowing" my game. The Yahoo! Messenger program would ruin the brightness setting of my game, temporarily pause my play and THEN require me to either exit or window the game in order to read the message.
These Yahoo! inconviences along with the fact that Yahoo! Messenger does NOT support hundreds of online games that are not their own creation, leave me thinking that X-Fire has improved upon Yahoo's system of doing things at least enough to avoid a lawsuit.
**(all this and I'm not a lawyer?)**
WoW: Scheod 70 orc warlock on Shadowmoon
Reading the USPTO website and database is fascinating. Apparantly someone invented a Real time data exchange system in July 2004. Just the thing I have been looking for over the last few years...
Also I do not see any reason why this must be about games. Any similar system even not meant for gaming could shoot down the patent. For example I am thinking about the huge text-based world that was online networking before the advent of Mosaic, in particular services provided by large companies on Prime mainframes like the Source, or Compuserve/Niftyserve. It seems likely that one server would have been used to manage online accounts and messaging while others provided online chat or game services.
The key here seems to be the ability to join a multiuser session after discovering a the identity of a member of the session.
I also have a question, would not science fiction also provide prior art, if it described technology in the patent? Thinking of William Gibson works. And Snowcrash.
Actually, Bush talked about reducing frivolous lawsuits in his state of the union address.
That can't be! We hate Bush here at Slashdot! He can't do anything right. It's not fair!
My other first post is car post.
"buddies' to know when other 'buddies' are playing games online, and easily join such games."
One usage they have not foreseen is that you could use the messaging service to "avoid your 'buddies' like the plague." That enhancement would be sufficiently significant to apply for a patent, to sue the bastards back and to show the silliness of it all.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
I'm not a lawyer but I see some serious obstacles here. To sue the infamous USPTO you have to win the case first. Legal costs are covered by the looser so you get your money back. Then again there is no ground to sue USPTO. Apparently this system is more clever then it seems. But lets try from the other end. The other one who can sue the USPTO is the company that submitted the request for patent. Lets say you sue someone for infringing your patent and in result your patent is revoked, you have to cover legal costs and so on. On this basis you could try to sue USPTO for granting the patent to you. It's their responsibility to decide what is patentable and what is not. Unfortunatly suing companies are mostly not interested in undermining USPTO's position.
the better defense is a good offense.
In my defense, this really offends me. (sorry - couldn't resist)
The capability referenced by the patent was present in the PLATO system in the 1970's. Once could messenge a friend on the other side of the world and join in a multiplayer game of DnD or Empire. One could even see if ones 'buddy' was currently playing.