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California Drivers Can Tank Up WIth Hydrogen
Country_hacker writes "News site TBO.com is reporting ChevronTexaco has opened a hydrogen fuel station in Chino, California, and has plans to open five more. Servicing three (or more) Hyundai SUVs, these prototype fueling stations are a part of a five-year cost-sharing program put on by the Department of Energy. Could this be the 'egg' in the alternate fuels 'chicken or egg?' scenario?"
We've had hydrogen refueling in Washington, DC for months.
Now I can buy the 6 figure Hydrogen powered BMW supercar!!!!!
...Isn't it more cost effective to grow your own hydrogen with electrolysis and a solar panel back home?
Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
Africus aut Europaeus?
hmm.. it's easy for me to run outta gas (Never actually done it) but how easy is it for tow-trucks to retrofit to fuel up vehichles on the road-
Hey! no more sucking on the hose when I siphon gas!
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Something like this could be really good for Korea (Hyundai is a Korean company) if it took off. This country desperately needs to look at alternate fuel sources. Air pollution here is pretty bad. If this was commercially successful, it could mean some improvements over here.
Unfortunately, nobody's trying to hatch it. The "egg", of course, is the electrical grid, and despite the previous programs to promote electric vehicles there appears to be little support for plug-in hybrids which could "refuel" on non-petroleum energy almost anywhere for little additional trouble or expense.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
The 'egg' in this whole thing is demand. I'm totally for hydrogen powered vehicles but companies aren't going to invest the money in the infrastructure until there is a market for it. A refueling station is great, but there are only three cars that are going to be able to use it.
What needs to be done is some kind of joint effort between auto makers and fuel companies to simultaneously release H fueling stations and H powered cars. This is a nice first step, but it's not going anywhere until there is widespread adoption.
'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
It makes its own hydrogen, though, from natural gas.
For the idiot with a gas powered car to refill at the station, and the frivilous lawsuit that will follow. Assuming they survive the explosion, of course...
UTF-8: There and Back Again
While I was in Brazil I noticed something unique. Ethanol AND Gasoline are both available at every gas station (I guess it should be called a fueling station). Here's an extremely informative website that shows some charts of ethanol.
0 04 .html
http://www.distill.com/World-Fuel-Ethanol-A&O-2
Why is the US going with Hydrogen instead of ethanol? I know that ethonal is more like "diesel fuel" so it requires the engine to heatup before starting the car in colder areas, but it seems that ethanol is already widely in use in other countries. Seems odd the US goes with hydrogen and everyone else is using ethanol.
This is not part of a 'chicken and egg' situation. Lack of fueling stations is not what's holding back hydrogen cars. What's holding them back is: (1) lack of range (due to the low energy density of compressed hydrogen gas, and lack of practical alternatives), (2) cost of hydrogen itself, and (3) the still very high cost of fuel cells. The last point is important, since hydrogen as a fuel makes very little sense for internal combustion engines -- since the hydrogen is made from natural gas, you might as well just burn natural gas in the vehicle, or a liquid fuel derived from gas.
BTW, if it's oil independence you want, Fischer-Tropsch diesel fuel is already very competitive at today's oil price (it would be competitive with oil at $25/barrel.) Expect many more synfuel plants to be built if oil stays expensive.
Disadvantages:
- short range (only about 180 to 185 miles)
- higher purchase price (about $5000 more for a new car)
- limited number of CNG refueling stations (have to plan refueling stops ahead)
- cannot use the car for cross-country trips due to insufficient network of CNG stations
- There is the occasional moron who thinks I'm a carpool lane violator and turns on the high beams behind me
- There is the occasional dumb cop who thinks I'm a carpool lane violator and pulls me over, only to let me go 2 minutes later
I expect a hydrogen car to have similar advantages and similar disadvantages.
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Just where do you think the hydrogen comes from? The cheapest way to get hydrogen is by cracking natural gas. So much for getting away from fossil fuels. Also, anyone who thinks that only water (vapor) comes out of the exhaust is wrong. That would be true if all that went into the engine were hydrogen and oxygen. Guess what? The air is 80% nitrogen. NOx formation can be a problem with hydrogen engines. The hydrogen itself also has properties that make for a bad fuel: it has such a low density that it is hard to carry much fuel and hydrogen can find the smallest holes to escape from that other gases would not.
So, if what we're talking about is a storage/transmission system, how does hydrogen add up? Very badly is the answer.
To store any usable quantities of hydrogen requires one of the following: extremely low temperatures, extremely high pressures, or some chemical to absorb it. Low temperatures are not practical for automotive applications because it requires constant energy input to keep it cold. Extremely high pressures or absorbing it into hydrides are sort of practical but you end up with either a very large, expensive high pressure tank that holds a small amount of hydrogen, or you end up with a large, very expensive bit of palladium or whatever that's going to hold a small amount of hydrogen.
So getting hydrogen requires a very expensive and inefficient process which (today) is derived from fossil fuels. It can only be stored in small quantities and the storage itself is extremely expensive. Oh, it also does best with fuel cell engines which also require extremely expensive catalysts (more palladium, etc).
So in the end we come out with numbers in the neighborhood of a $150k vehicles that has a range of 150 miles and has a cost per mile of 50 cents, just for the fuel. Sounds like a winner to me!
Compare this to electric cars. Electricity is distributed and available everywhere. There are green sources of electricity which are cost-competitive, and improving. The big expense in electric cars is the battery. Lithium is the best choice, and it is coming down in price rapidly. Range on a lithium battery cars can go over 200 miles.
When you look at the pros and cons, the only advantage we see in the end for hydrogen is that it can be refuelled quickly. You pump it into your car and go on, just like with gasoline. But are the downsides worth it?
I can't help but think that this whole hydrogen thing is an enormous, almost fraudulent exercise in scamming subsidies from the government to support a technology which is outrageously expensive. I would rather see natural gas refueling stations, rather than see stations that sell hydrogen extracted from natural gas.
I also have a feeling that part of the push for hydrogen is a push to maintain huge barriers to entry in the auto manufacturing industry. It will require enormous technology resources and patent portfolios to produce a hydrogen car. With electrics, on the other hand, anyone can do it in his garage, once batteries become available. That must be scary to the industry; they haven't faced any new entrants into the market in a long time.
Stop hydrogen!
After reading this page about a worst case scenario of what could happen after we run out of oil, I've come to wonder if its claims that we don't have enough platinum on earth to make fuel cells feasible for cars is true. Does anyone know either way?
One thing is a confirmed fact though, they cost a lot to make 1 million US$, and they may come down to $100,000 in 10 years. What a bargain!
I sure hope they can make fuel cells work, but everything I've read seems to indicate that best case, it's not a done deal quite yet.
Actually, they've gone to some real trouble to make carbon-fiber-reinforced tanks that are *very* hard to bust. I've seen the test footage, and when they finally did manage to bust one (which was no mean feat), it slowly leaked the hydrogen out. What is more, when they ignited the leaking hydrogen, it just burned, Just Like Gasoline; it did not explode.
Incidentally, leaking H2 is somewhat safer than leaking gasoline, because it tends to float up and away instead of accumulate in a growing pool on the ground.
The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
It's been done for only a few grand - http://unitednuclear.com/h2.htm Make your own solar powered hydrolysis machine in your backyard :)
Death by snoo-snoo!
Hate to Reply to Myself (tm Slashdot Inc.), but i forgot one other thing: another research group has been working on storing H2 as a Nickel-Metal Hydride. Sound familiar? It's the same method used for batteries of the same name. They fill a tank with fine, fine metal powder (mostly Ni), and pressurize H2 into it. The H2 bonds to the powder at the molecular level, which means you can squeeze ~1,000 times more hydrogen into the same size tank. To get the H2 out, you actually have to apply a small amount of heat to the tank. A fraction less efficient, but much safer than your post would suggest.
The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
...and it was produced by Standard Oil, right?
You can make Hydrogen with a nuclear reactor. you can also make it with pretty much any steam source.
1 cold war era nuclear bomb could potentially generate enough hydrogen to run the state of texas's autos for 2-3 months or more, if every car in texas was converted over to H.
(Info provided to me by a Navy nuclear engineer)
Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
CNG is available in the vast majority of service stations. It blew me away when I first got here - being an American, I had no idea it was in widespread use.
.40 AUD per liter vs. 1 AUD for gasoline (and Australia has some of the lower gas prices in the world)
Good points:
- It's a lot cheaper than gasoline, about
- A liter of CNG gets you (just about) as far as a liter of gasoline
- It's less polluting
Most of the Sydney-area taxis use CNG for precisely this reason. The one person I know who owns a CNG-fueled automobile for personal use has a brother-in-law who owns a taxi company, so he got a stock vehicle, and had it painted (Sydney taxis are white)... He loves it.
They said that the process should eventually allow a 1-liter tank to hold enough H2 to give a Civic-size car a 1,000 km range (assuming it was using a fuel cell). The heat (they said it doesn't take much) comes from the battery pack (most/all fuel cellers have them).
Now as to whether hydrogen is or isn't a 'great fuel', I don't know. But safe it most certainly can be.
The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
hydrogen fuel takes energy to make, so we'll still buy plenty of oil to make the hydrogen. Getting the US nuclear power industry going again in a big way is the only (short term, eg decades rather than centuries) way to dramatically reduce our dependency on oil. PS for those who modded parent troll, where do YOU think most of Al Qaeda's funding for 911 came from? Hint, it was neither Iraq nor Afghanistan...
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