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California Drivers Can Tank Up WIth Hydrogen

Country_hacker writes "News site TBO.com is reporting ChevronTexaco has opened a hydrogen fuel station in Chino, California, and has plans to open five more. Servicing three (or more) Hyundai SUVs, these prototype fueling stations are a part of a five-year cost-sharing program put on by the Department of Energy. Could this be the 'egg' in the alternate fuels 'chicken or egg?' scenario?"

70 of 462 comments (clear)

  1. Slackers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    We've had hydrogen refueling in Washington, DC for months.

    1. Re:Slackers by SafteyMan · · Score: 2

      The DC station is used mainly for hydrogen fueled government cars.

    2. Re:Slackers by pipingguy · · Score: 4, Informative


      I did some work (low-level, pressure and piping design stuff) on the trials in Vancouver for buses. This was at least 7 years ago. Our proposal didn't win. I don't remember DC as being a candidate, as it was Vancouver and Detroit at that time.

      I'd be interested in the refueling, is it from tube trailers or LH2 trailers?

      Liquid hydrogen always sounds scary, but this stuff is road transported every day via million dollar tankers. One of the big industrial gas manufacturers has a video (taken from a local TV station's collection) where a LH2 tanker overturned--nothing happened. Of course, safety and technical specialists from all over had to be called-in to placate the local authorities.

      When cold boxes are built (I know as I've designed a few), they are often stencilled on the exterior as CBOX1, PCB1 (pump cold box 1), et cetera. During shipping via Schnabel everyone wants to take a look and people worried/ignorant about technology have fits about possible nukular explosions.

  2. SWEET by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Now I can buy the 6 figure Hydrogen powered BMW supercar!!!!!

  3. At this stage... by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...Isn't it more cost effective to grow your own hydrogen with electrolysis and a solar panel back home?

    --
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    1. Re:At this stage... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      In South Korea only old people grow their own hydrogen with electrolysis and a solar panel back home.

    2. Re:At this stage... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      well, old people have got it easy in south korea, back in my day we had to take pails of hydrogen up hill both ways to pay for a loaf of bread with bits of rock in it.

    3. Re:At this stage... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let's see. A typical car uses about 15KW at around 50MPH (See for example, http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JaeheeJoh.shtm l) , and the efficiency of solar generation of hydrogen via electrolysis is about 10% (See http://gcep.stanford.edu/pdfs/hydrogen_workshop/Ma cQueen.pdf).
      Now on a good day, you can't expect more than 1KW of sunlight square meter. So with a 1 square meter solar cell, if you wanted to drive for a measely one hour, you would need your solar cell to be exposed to full sun-light for 15KW/(0.1 x 1KW) = 150 hours. Oops!

    4. Re:At this stage... by diablomonic · · Score: 5, Informative
      FIRST: you assume 10 percent efficiency, whereas average decent cells nowadays are more like 20 with good ones around 30

      NEXT you assume only one square metre of solar cell space.... how big is your house? mine is around 8*20 metres = 160 m^2

      SO if you take my house as an example, you are looking at 160m^2 * 200w (say)per m^2 * 8 decent sunlight hours per day = about 250 KWhours per day IF i cover my entire roof with panels, plenty to power multiple cars and the house and the neighbours house etc etc.

      THE only problem with this scenario? due to a lack of widespread investment in solar technology, as opposed to oil or other fossil fuels, solar cells still cost about 5 bucks a watt, so your looking at an upfront investment of about 160 grand to cover my roof in panels. Now obviously i dont quite need that much power, but either way itll be a fair whack of money at current prices (otherwise i wouldve done it long ago). Hopefully some of the new thinner solar technologies coming out soon (within a year or two) will lower prices to a more reasonable level.

      --
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    5. Re:At this stage... by stonecrest · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, the biggest problem with his analysis, and yours, is that you're looking at equating kW's (power) for some reason instead of energy (kWh). If a car is powered by hydrogen, its power requirement is fulfilled solely by the capacity of the fuel cell - it has nothing to do with the solar panels at all. It's a matter of how quickly you can extract the energy of the hydrogen gas per unit of time via the fuel cell. Now, if you REALLY wanted to find out how long it would take to charge your car, you have to know how much sun you have. Typically, the US gets anywhere from 3.5 (northeast) to 6.5 (southwest) full sun hours per day, on average. So if you have a 7kW rated system on your roof and you lived in an average state, in terms of sun, you could generate about 35kWh (5kW x 5h) of energy everyday. Supposing that electrolysis is 75% efficient, you could generate about 27kWh worth of hydrogen gas per day. Assuming that the fuel cell is also 75% efficient, we're at about 20kWh worth of energy that can be used by the car. So, if a hydrogen fuelled car operates at 15kW on average, you could drive it for 1.33 hours everyday. That seems like more than enough for your average person. Of course, if you also wanted to power your house...

    6. Re:At this stage... by bleckywelcky · · Score: 2, Informative

      I doubt that.

      20 % efficiency

      1 m^2

      200 w/m^2

      6 sunlight hours per day

      1200 kWh

      At least a 10 year lifespawn

      4,272,000 kWh to produce a 1 m^2 solar panel? Gimme a break.

  4. Sure, unless you want to take yout SUV outta town. by way2trivial · · Score: 3, Insightful

    hmm.. it's easy for me to run outta gas (Never actually done it) but how easy is it for tow-trucks to retrofit to fuel up vehichles on the road-

    Hey! no more sucking on the hose when I siphon gas!

    --
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  5. I hope this takes off by aendeuryu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Something like this could be really good for Korea (Hyundai is a Korean company) if it took off. This country desperately needs to look at alternate fuel sources. Air pollution here is pretty bad. If this was commercially successful, it could mean some improvements over here.

    1. Re:I hope this takes off by nacturation · · Score: 2, Funny

      But would only old people use alternate fuels?

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    2. Re:I hope this takes off by amliebsch · · Score: 2, Insightful
      At best it is an inefficient way of storying energy generated by fossil fuels

      I hear it can also store energy from wind and nuclear sources.

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    3. Re:I hope this takes off by BenTels0 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Hydrogen is not a fuel source anymore than electricity is an energy source.

      That depends on your point of view. From the point of view of the user of hydrogen it most certainly is an energy source, just as much as gasoline is. It is all relative. After all, in an absolute sense, nothing at all is an original energy source, as the law of preservation of energy tells us.

      At best it is an inefficient way of storying energy generated by fossil fuels.

      Or any other fuel; energy doesn't discriminate. Why exactly is it inefficient, in your mind?

      Hydrogen isn't naturally found anywhere.

      I assume you mean, not bonded to anything else. Try the sun.

      It will never be commercially successful because it is inefficient and does not make economic sense. That is the sad fact. The future is in biological, organically created fuel oils. That's much more efficient if we can get a natural process (say algae) to turn carbon dioxide in the air into diesel fuel using the power of the sun. This is actually efficient and sustainable.

      Ahem. Economy has a strange way of changing with things like scientific advancement and other factors. Right now, oil is vastly expensive and may in fact never come down in price ever again. Oil creation by algae of the heat/pressure simulation process developed at Shell recently is a possibility, but also expensive (in fact, viable only because natural oil is so expensive). Other technologies follow the same reasoning.

  6. The "egg" is already there by Tau+Zero · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Unfortunately, nobody's trying to hatch it. The "egg", of course, is the electrical grid, and despite the previous programs to promote electric vehicles there appears to be little support for plug-in hybrids which could "refuel" on non-petroleum energy almost anywhere for little additional trouble or expense.

    --
    Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
    1. Re:The "egg" is already there by dbIII · · Score: 2, Insightful
      support for plug-in hybrids which could "refuel" on non-petroleum energy
      Hydrogen vehicle fuel has never been about saving energy - it's about shifting the pollution from the street corner to big power plants that have the space for anti-pollution gear and big high stacks to put it up where it will disperse. In a lot of cases its another way to get fuel out of coal, or fuel from hydro.

      Someone is bound to put a nuclear troll in here - since a form of energy is mentioned.

  7. So where can I buy a hydrogen car? by rsborg · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If this is the egg, then where's my chicken?

    Besides, why Chino, of all places... why not somewhere people might actually care to buy it, like say The People's Republic of Berkeley, of SF central?

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  8. Demand... by qw0ntum · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The 'egg' in this whole thing is demand. I'm totally for hydrogen powered vehicles but companies aren't going to invest the money in the infrastructure until there is a market for it. A refueling station is great, but there are only three cars that are going to be able to use it.

    What needs to be done is some kind of joint effort between auto makers and fuel companies to simultaneously release H fueling stations and H powered cars. This is a nice first step, but it's not going anywhere until there is widespread adoption.

    --
    'Every story, if continued long enough, ends in death.' --Ernest Hemingway
    1. Re:Demand... by Planesdragon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Funny how GM has been helping to pass around the idea the HYBRID vehicles are more expensive than conventional vehicles and people won't pay the price.

      1: They are, and we don't. If we were all willing to pay the price, sometime over the last five years we'd have had more than just four hybrid cars in America.

      2: GM (yes, THAT GM) has hybrid city busses that they're trying to sell. Albany's CDTA has one that is subbing for the #11, still with all the ads from the 04 conventions. (And, really, they're a great, GREAT idea.)

  9. To Be Viable, Need more Hydrogen Cars by reporter · · Score: 2, Insightful
    In order for these hydrogen stations to be viable, we need more hydrogen-powered cars. They need to be a regular fixture on the Californian highways. Right now, I see a hydrogen-powered car only about once per year.

    With any luck, these hydrogen stations will mark the beginning of the end for Islamic tyranny from the Middle East. For too long, we have essentially financed terrorist operations by paying money for gasoline. They money goes to, for example, Saudi Arabia. The Arabs then secretly funnel a bit of that money to anti-American groups in the Middle East.

    We end up financing the terrorists. Only a hydrogen-based economy will put an end to this nonsense.

    Next question is "Can we build jet fighters and bombers that run off hydrogen?"

    1. Re:To Be Viable, Need more Hydrogen Cars by grozzie2 · · Score: 2, Informative
      The reality is, commercial quantities of H2 come from natural gas, so, it's still gonna be coming from a fossil fuel source. On the bright side, ng is very difficult to ship overseas in any kind of quantity, economically. It travels much better in pipelines. I think it'll be GREAT to see the us become dependant on ng instead of crude, they import most of that from the folks north of them, instead of the folks across the pond. And when you say something about useing electricity to create hydrogen, dont forget, that electrical plant will run on either coal, or ng.

      Overall, this is exciting news though. the thought of the american economy being hostage to canadian natural gas instead of saudi oil, just makes my wallet go pitter patter.

  10. It's not for public use by Animats · · Score: 4, Informative
    Here's the Chevron/Texaco fact sheet. It's just a demo site to fuel five experimental Hyundai SUVs, and it's located at a Hyundai R&D center.

    It makes its own hydrogen, though, from natural gas.

    1. Re:It's not for public use by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 5, Informative

      I've read some articles that say corn-based ethanol is pretty much a scam to raise the demand for (and price of) corn. Apparently producing corn ethanol requires a shit ton of energy and fossil fuels. People are tripping over themselves to create "clean" and "renewable" energy, but they're losing sight of the big picture and the laws of physics.

      I'm not going to find a site because it's late.

      -B

    2. Re:It's not for public use by flyingsquid · · Score: 2, Insightful
      This program is such bullshit.

      Seriously. Five SUVs? we really want to do something serious about curbing emissions and conserving energy, today, we start by legislating higher fuel economy for existing vehicles; that will do something. Maybe in twenty years hydrogen technology will be advanced enough to be a large part of the solution to our energy and pollution woes, but currently, all spending a few bucks on hydrogen technology does is give the automotive and petroleum industries the ability to say, "look, we're really doing something! We're not evil!". Purely cosmetic, nothing more. It reminds me of how Phillip Morris changed its name -which had long been associated with selling death at a high profit margin- to "Altria". They still knowingly kill people to make a buck, but now they kill people with a name which sounds sort of like "altruism", the practice of doing good and getting nothing in return. Likewise I think this is just the auto and petroleum companies trying to say they've changed when they haven't. Like sticking a "save the rainforest" bumper sticker on a Hummer.

    3. Re:It's not for public use by Vellmont · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But what you've missed is that it takes as much energy in fossil fuels to produce a gallon of ethanol as is released when you burn it. The benefits of ethanol as a renewable energy source are very debateable. I'd bet bio-diesel is a lot more energy positive though.

      It is going to be extremely difficult for any renewable source to take hold until all the non-renewable sources are gone.

      Not true. We're probbably never going to run out of fossile fuels, it's just going to become increasingly expensive to get them. Not all fossile fuels have equal costs in getting them out of the ground and into a useable state. Canada for instance has a trillion barrels of oil in the form of tar sand. They're very costly to extract into a useable form though. The point is that as fossil fuels become increasingly expensive renewable sources will become econmically viable. The costs associated with renewables will also likely only go down as more money+research gets pumped into them from the profits of usage.

      This is actually one of the reasons that OPEC doesn't want high oil prices. High oil prices only encourage investments in other energy sources, which eventually only undermines oil prices.

      --
      AccountKiller
  11. I'm waiting... by halcyon1234 · · Score: 3, Funny

    For the idiot with a gas powered car to refill at the station, and the frivilous lawsuit that will follow. Assuming they survive the explosion, of course...

  12. What happened to ethanol? by ryanw · · Score: 3, Informative

    While I was in Brazil I noticed something unique. Ethanol AND Gasoline are both available at every gas station (I guess it should be called a fueling station). Here's an extremely informative website that shows some charts of ethanol.

    http://www.distill.com/World-Fuel-Ethanol-A&O-20 04 .html

    Why is the US going with Hydrogen instead of ethanol? I know that ethonal is more like "diesel fuel" so it requires the engine to heatup before starting the car in colder areas, but it seems that ethanol is already widely in use in other countries. Seems odd the US goes with hydrogen and everyone else is using ethanol.

    1. Re:What happened to ethanol? by dotwaffle · · Score: 5, Interesting

      But ethanol is a crappy idea - it's got a lot of drawbacks, and it essentially needs to be "grown". A much better alternative is the old Vegetable oil way of doing things - BioDiesel. Almost every filling station in Europe stocks Diesel and BioDiesel works in most if not all Diesel engines. The enormous benefit is the turnaround time, as it is a continuous, rather than a batch process (for those Chemists out there).

      Let's not go changing most of the mechanical parts if all we need to change is the fuel...

      BioDiesel, grown from Rape Seed etc, would give not only American's reason to get the farms up and running again, but also third world countries - a lot of farmers will grow this stuff and sell it very cheaply, to be refined elsewhere. BioDiesel _will_ revolutionise the European lorry (sorry, truck) market, such a shame that the USA won't be able to partake - you're far too reliant on petrol (the stuff you normally fill up with). 10 years, and you may be ready, Europe is ready NOW. Let us be your Guinea pig. Do you hear that [insert current UK Home Secretary]???

    2. Re:What happened to ethanol? by wiggles · · Score: 2, Informative

      The US Ethanol effort is a lot bigger than you imagine, especially here in the midwest, where the corn that is fermented to produce ethanol is grown. All of our gasoline fuels are now blended at 10% ethanol, and the major auto makers are making cars that will run on 85% ethanol, which is provided at various fueling stations.

    3. Re:What happened to ethanol? by wiggles · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sorry, but you're mistaken on America's commitment to Biodiesel. Your comment on Biodiesel giving American farms a reason to exist again is well heeded by the powers that be, who are sick of providing subsidies to farmers so they'll stop growing. For more info, go here.

    4. Re:What happened to ethanol? by pfdietz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      An even better idea is Fischer-Tropsch diesel with the synthesis gas coming from gasified biomass. This uses all the energy in the plant -- cellulose, hemicellulose, lignin, everything -- not just starches or oils produced in seeds. You can even extend it by providing the steam for gasification using nuclear energy (instead of by burning some of the biomass).

    5. Re:What happened to ethanol? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Biodiesel has been energy-positive for quite some time now. It doesn't yet allow for making a profit, though, at least not with U.S. fuel prices. Maybe in europe. Check out "Energy Balance/Life Cycle Inventory for Ethanol, Biodiesel and Petroleum Fuels". Specifically, "the energy yield of biodiesel is (3.2/0.83) 280 percent greater than petroleum diesel fuel". You could also read the cited paper, "Life Cycle Inventory of Biodiesel and Petroleum Diesel for Use in an Urban Bus". (PDF) The significant paragraph follows:

      Energy Balance. Biodiesel and petroleum diesel have very similar energy efficiencies. The base case model estimates life cycle energy efficiencies of 80.55% for biodiesel versus 83.28% for petroleum diesel. The lower efficiency for biodiesel reflects slightly higher process energy requirements for converting the energy contained in soybean oil to fuel. In terms of effective use of fossil energy resources, biodiesel yields around 3.2 units of fuel product energy for every unit of fossil energy consumed in the life cycle. By contrast, petroleum diesel's life cycle yields only 0.83 units of fuel product energy per unit of fossil energy consumed. Such measures confirm the "renewable" nature of biodiesel. The life cycle for B20 has a proportionately lower fossil energy ratio (0.98 units of fuel product energy for every unit of fossil energy consumed). B20's fossil energy ratio reflects the impact of adding petroleum diesel into the blend.

      In other words; biodiesel has very slightly lower energy density but far superior return as compared to normal diesel. The PDF also describes emissions, which are better on biodiesel.

      --
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  13. Too late. by Sensible+Clod · · Score: 2, Informative

    Did you see who put up and OWN those stations? That's right, Fossil Fuel Companies(tm). As has been repeated many times here on /., the oil companies are going to control this From the Git-Go(tm).

    *bursts CompotatoJ's bubble reluctantly*

    --

    The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
    1. Re:Too late. by Sunda666 · · Score: 2, Funny

      simpson's quote, yada yada...

      "Hi I am an electric car. I don not go very far and not very fast. And if you drive me, people will think you are gay"

      --


      ``If a program can't rewrite its own code, what good is it?'' - Mel
  14. Hydrogen production.. by wilbrod · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I remember watching something on TV where they were saying that producing Hydrogen requires just as much energy from different sources (like oil) as it is required to run a regular car with oil. Like at the end it would create just as much pollution.

    I just hope I'm right out of it!

    1. Re:Hydrogen production.. by paganizer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      ...and it was produced by Standard Oil, right?
      You can make Hydrogen with a nuclear reactor. you can also make it with pretty much any steam source.
      1 cold war era nuclear bomb could potentially generate enough hydrogen to run the state of texas's autos for 2-3 months or more, if every car in texas was converted over to H.
      (Info provided to me by a Navy nuclear engineer)

      --
      Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
  15. No, this isn't very important by pfdietz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is not part of a 'chicken and egg' situation. Lack of fueling stations is not what's holding back hydrogen cars. What's holding them back is: (1) lack of range (due to the low energy density of compressed hydrogen gas, and lack of practical alternatives), (2) cost of hydrogen itself, and (3) the still very high cost of fuel cells. The last point is important, since hydrogen as a fuel makes very little sense for internal combustion engines -- since the hydrogen is made from natural gas, you might as well just burn natural gas in the vehicle, or a liquid fuel derived from gas.

    BTW, if it's oil independence you want, Fischer-Tropsch diesel fuel is already very competitive at today's oil price (it would be competitive with oil at $25/barrel.) Expect many more synfuel plants to be built if oil stays expensive.

  16. My car runs on CNG (compressed natural gas)... by Harry+Balls · · Score: 5, Interesting
    ...not on hydrogen, and a little-known law allows me to drive solo on carpool (HOV) lanes in California.

    Disadvantages:
    - short range (only about 180 to 185 miles)
    - higher purchase price (about $5000 more for a new car)
    - limited number of CNG refueling stations (have to plan refueling stops ahead)
    - cannot use the car for cross-country trips due to insufficient network of CNG stations
    - There is the occasional moron who thinks I'm a carpool lane violator and turns on the high beams behind me
    - There is the occasional dumb cop who thinks I'm a carpool lane violator and pulls me over, only to let me go 2 minutes later

    I expect a hydrogen car to have similar advantages and similar disadvantages.

  17. Re:Great! by lobotomy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just where do you think the hydrogen comes from? The cheapest way to get hydrogen is by cracking natural gas. So much for getting away from fossil fuels. Also, anyone who thinks that only water (vapor) comes out of the exhaust is wrong. That would be true if all that went into the engine were hydrogen and oxygen. Guess what? The air is 80% nitrogen. NOx formation can be a problem with hydrogen engines. The hydrogen itself also has properties that make for a bad fuel: it has such a low density that it is hard to carry much fuel and hydrogen can find the smallest holes to escape from that other gases would not.

  18. Wait a minute... by HunterZ · · Score: 2, Insightful
    From the article:
    The Chino center will use natural gas as a feedstock, to use the extensive natural gas infrastructure that is already in place. "Natural gas is an established, very efficient way to make hydrogen," he said.
    So, really, we'll just be trading one non-renewable natural resource (petroleum) for another (natural gas)?
    --
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  19. omg.....learn how to read by nugunz_101 · · Score: 2, Informative

    don't the idiots in chino read popsci? URL:http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/artic le/0,20967,927469,00.html This article adequetly explains with multiple reasons why the hydrogen community is lagging behind the ICE(internal combustion)

    --
    Ask not what you can do for your country, ask whats for lunch.
  20. Hydrogen is NOT an Energy Source ... by Ron+Bennett · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While much of the masses have been hoodwinked into believing hydrogen fuel is alternative, an important detail few realize is that hydrogen is NOT an energy source ... it's only a tranport medium.

    Where is most of that hydrogen going to come from? ... yep, "big oil"/energy producing companies, as some others have already pointed out.

    In the end, folks will pay more for more complicated vehicles which cost more to operate - and there will likely be about the same, if not more pollution than now when factoring in the production of the hydrogen fuel; producing energy is still a messy business - even solar and wind power create pollution, though admittedly much less than say coal, but I digress.

    In a nutshell, "hydrogen" is NOT a energy source, but rather only a transport medium - the way to truly reduce pollution from energy production/use is less consumption and/or more efficient energy production methods.

    Ron

  21. Hydrogen: boondoggle or scam? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
    To make things clear, hydrogen is not a source of power. It is merely a way of transmitting or storing power. Hydrogen comes from either electricity, or is extracted from natural gas. Electricity can be "green" to various degrees. Natural gas is no more "green" than other fossil fuels.

    So, if what we're talking about is a storage/transmission system, how does hydrogen add up? Very badly is the answer.

    To store any usable quantities of hydrogen requires one of the following: extremely low temperatures, extremely high pressures, or some chemical to absorb it. Low temperatures are not practical for automotive applications because it requires constant energy input to keep it cold. Extremely high pressures or absorbing it into hydrides are sort of practical but you end up with either a very large, expensive high pressure tank that holds a small amount of hydrogen, or you end up with a large, very expensive bit of palladium or whatever that's going to hold a small amount of hydrogen.

    So getting hydrogen requires a very expensive and inefficient process which (today) is derived from fossil fuels. It can only be stored in small quantities and the storage itself is extremely expensive. Oh, it also does best with fuel cell engines which also require extremely expensive catalysts (more palladium, etc).

    So in the end we come out with numbers in the neighborhood of a $150k vehicles that has a range of 150 miles and has a cost per mile of 50 cents, just for the fuel. Sounds like a winner to me!

    Compare this to electric cars. Electricity is distributed and available everywhere. There are green sources of electricity which are cost-competitive, and improving. The big expense in electric cars is the battery. Lithium is the best choice, and it is coming down in price rapidly. Range on a lithium battery cars can go over 200 miles.

    When you look at the pros and cons, the only advantage we see in the end for hydrogen is that it can be refuelled quickly. You pump it into your car and go on, just like with gasoline. But are the downsides worth it?

    I can't help but think that this whole hydrogen thing is an enormous, almost fraudulent exercise in scamming subsidies from the government to support a technology which is outrageously expensive. I would rather see natural gas refueling stations, rather than see stations that sell hydrogen extracted from natural gas.

    I also have a feeling that part of the push for hydrogen is a push to maintain huge barriers to entry in the auto manufacturing industry. It will require enormous technology resources and patent portfolios to produce a hydrogen car. With electrics, on the other hand, anyone can do it in his garage, once batteries become available. That must be scary to the industry; they haven't faced any new entrants into the market in a long time.

    Stop hydrogen!

  22. fuel cells cost a lot/do we have enough platinum? by marcmerlin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    After reading this page about a worst case scenario of what could happen after we run out of oil, I've come to wonder if its claims that we don't have enough platinum on earth to make fuel cells feasible for cars is true. Does anyone know either way?

    One thing is a confirmed fact though, they cost a lot to make 1 million US$, and they may come down to $100,000 in 10 years. What a bargain!

    I sure hope they can make fuel cells work, but everything I've read seems to indicate that best case, it's not a done deal quite yet.

  23. Re:And safer too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Would you say it is any more dangerous than propane?

    Propane powered vehicles with fuel tanks have been on the roads for decades. They can be fueled, and crashed, flipped, dropped, shot, without blowing up.

    The safety issue is nothing more than hot air from Big Oil supporters.

  24. Re:And safer too by Sensible+Clod · · Score: 5, Informative

    Actually, they've gone to some real trouble to make carbon-fiber-reinforced tanks that are *very* hard to bust. I've seen the test footage, and when they finally did manage to bust one (which was no mean feat), it slowly leaked the hydrogen out. What is more, when they ignited the leaking hydrogen, it just burned, Just Like Gasoline; it did not explode.

    Incidentally, leaking H2 is somewhat safer than leaking gasoline, because it tends to float up and away instead of accumulate in a growing pool on the ground.

    --

    The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
  25. Convert your car.. by Daxster · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's been done for only a few grand - http://unitednuclear.com/h2.htm Make your own solar powered hydrolysis machine in your backyard :)

    --
    Death by snoo-snoo!
  26. Re:Not just cars. by Stripsurge · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From TFA : The Chino center will use natural gas as a feedstock, to use the extensive natural gas infrastructure that is already in place. "Natural gas is an established, very efficient way to make hydrogen," he said.

    If you can get away without laying new pipe all the better. Since the source of the hydrogen right now is still predominantly fossil fuel based (directly or indirectly) burning hydrogen in your house doesn't really do much. Even if the energy stored in your hydrogen came from electricity you're still not any further ahead if you're just going to convert it back to electricity at your house.

    Ok. Being able to tank up at your house would be pretty cool. Erm... but I'm just thinking about propane. I think there's some sort of certification one needs to go through before they can fill up a truck (please feel free to correct me) Something similar would probably apply to hydrogen as well.

    Sure it'd be nice to generate your own hydrogen from solar/wind, but really its not all that different from generating electricty for yourself. I guess the one plus for hydrogen over electricity is storage. With a big enough tank I suppose you could stock up gas over the summer and burn it come winter. It'll be really interesting to see where the hydrogen economy heads in the next few years.

  27. Re:And safer too by Sensible+Clod · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Hate to Reply to Myself (tm Slashdot Inc.), but i forgot one other thing: another research group has been working on storing H2 as a Nickel-Metal Hydride. Sound familiar? It's the same method used for batteries of the same name. They fill a tank with fine, fine metal powder (mostly Ni), and pressurize H2 into it. The H2 bonds to the powder at the molecular level, which means you can squeeze ~1,000 times more hydrogen into the same size tank. To get the H2 out, you actually have to apply a small amount of heat to the tank. A fraction less efficient, but much safer than your post would suggest.

    --

    The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
  28. Re:Great! by g-doo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    People ask for alternative fuels. A large company like ChevronTexaco, who has the power to actually make these good changes happen> , listens. Then people bash them for doing so because they're involved with the petroleum industry. What is it that you want?

  29. Here in Sydney by mpesce · · Score: 5, Informative

    CNG is available in the vast majority of service stations. It blew me away when I first got here - being an American, I had no idea it was in widespread use.

    Good points:
    - It's a lot cheaper than gasoline, about .40 AUD per liter vs. 1 AUD for gasoline (and Australia has some of the lower gas prices in the world)
    - A liter of CNG gets you (just about) as far as a liter of gasoline
    - It's less polluting

    Most of the Sydney-area taxis use CNG for precisely this reason. The one person I know who owns a CNG-fueled automobile for personal use has a brother-in-law who owns a taxi company, so he got a stock vehicle, and had it painted (Sydney taxis are white)... He loves it.

  30. Re:And safer too by misleb · · Score: 2

    And how heavy is a tank full of Ni and where does the initial heat come from to release the hydrogen? Why not just devise a better battery and store electricity? Sure would cut out an expensive conversion to electricity or combustion. Hydrogen is not a great fuel. Even if you can make it safe.

    -matthew

    --
    "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
  31. Re:And safer too by Sensible+Clod · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They said that the process should eventually allow a 1-liter tank to hold enough H2 to give a Civic-size car a 1,000 km range (assuming it was using a fuel cell). The heat (they said it doesn't take much) comes from the battery pack (most/all fuel cellers have them).

    Now as to whether hydrogen is or isn't a 'great fuel', I don't know. But safe it most certainly can be.

    --

    The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
  32. You've missed the news, I see by Tau+Zero · · Score: 2, Informative
    As it is, hybrids barely beat out economy cars. Add 300 pounds more batteries, and they will actually get worse gas mileage, once those batteries run down.
    If not wrong, at least debatable on all points.
    1. Hybids can do considerably better; for instance, the Accord hybrid is tuned for performance while still delivering fairly good economy (design tradeoff).
    2. At least one Future Truck hybrid managed to add all the hybrid features to an Explorer while subtracting weight from the smaller engine and superfluous drivetrain components. According to this CSM article:
      With engineering students at the University of California at Davis, Professor Frank has spent more than a decade turning production vehicles into plug-in hybrids using off-the-shelf parts. "We just built a high-performance plug-in hybrid Ford Explorer," he says. "It's 325 horsepower - 200 of that horsepower is electric and 125 is gasoline. This car goes like a rocket, but still gets double the fuel economy of a regular hybrid. And for the first 50 miles it is all electric - zero emissions."

      ...

      Built on a stock Explorer platform, the hybrid retains all its original interior space. There is also more space in the engine compartment because the vehicle lacks moving parts like a fan belt, generator, water pump, and even a transmission. Because it has fewer than one-fifth the number of moving parts of a conventional SUV, the hybrid's weight, even with a heavier battery, stays the same.

    If that isn't enough for you... read one of their technical reports (not sure if that's the same vehicle or not).
    Even worse, unless you size up the gas engine and generator to handle the extra battery weight, it would be easy to run an electrical deficit which could leave you stranded with a puny 1 liter engine to haul your extra heavy hybrid up a hill.
    You made three errors in that statement:
    1. Maximum power requirements are typically in acceleration, not hill-climbing.
    2. Running out of battery isn't "stranding", it's just going slower. Like, you know, having to downshift when climbing a mountain with a load?
    3. These folks appear to be using engines in the ~2 liter department, but they're getting better-than-V8 performance out of the system. Better performance appears to be one of the common elements of hybrids, though the extent to which it is stressed vs. economy is a design tradeoff.
    If you don't know what I mean by now...
    --
    Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
  33. Attribution by guttentag · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Associated Press is reporting the story, not TBO.com (see same exact story here on Yahoo news).

    See Chevron's press release here.

    See U.S. Federal Gov't press release on this here.

  34. The Hyundai Hindenburg. by Solder+Fumes · · Score: 2, Funny

    Sounds about right. Once we get nuclear-powered SUVs maybe we can start naming them after presidents. "And now the six-o'clock news. Interstate 90 was blocked today after a fiery accident involving the Eisenhower and the Monroe. Several smaller vehicles were also involved, including the Oklahoma, California, and . None of the drivers were injured, cushioned in their titanium-armored luxury staterooms, though several thousand local inhabitants are missing."

  35. Why it won't work that way by MichaelPenne · · Score: 3, Insightful

    hydrogen fuel takes energy to make, so we'll still buy plenty of oil to make the hydrogen. Getting the US nuclear power industry going again in a big way is the only (short term, eg decades rather than centuries) way to dramatically reduce our dependency on oil. PS for those who modded parent troll, where do YOU think most of Al Qaeda's funding for 911 came from? Hint, it was neither Iraq nor Afghanistan...

  36. Free Hydrogen in the atmosphere is BAD by Hallowed · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Read:
    http://www.princeton.edu/~chm333/2004/Hydrogen/atm osphere.htm

    It explains why Hydrogen released into the atmosphere is a bad thing.....unless we are a lot more careful with H2 than we are with every other fuel we use today, we will be making matters worse, and that isn't counting the fact that the technology still isn't up to speed to make the entire process efficient. A hydrogen economy requires that you produce it, currently from natural gas or water, store/transport it, then feed it to a fuel cell. Right now, the only way to produce Hydrogen without releasing CO2 is to crack water with clean electricity from solar/wind/hydro/nuke power...The fuel cells are delicate, expensive to manufacture, and require expensive materials that have to be mined (OMG he said the M word). Platnium is $800+ an ounce these days....people will be jacking your hydrogen car just to tear apart the fuel cell for the Pt in it......

    This whole thing is a waste of our money, the technology is not there, and the advantages don't come close to breaking even with the disadvantages...we need to concentrate on making vehicles more efficient, and start looking seriously at changing power generation world wide over to nuclear or finding a way to sequester the CO2 produced by powerplants.....I think the money being pissed away on hydrogen cars would be a lot better spent on fusion research.....why not spend the cash to recover some helium3 off of the moon for fusion testing....

    More than anything I think the goverment supporting Hydrogen research is a way for them to go through the motions, while they line their pockets with more money from Big Oil and Big Coal...and I am talking Everyone in DC, not just the current admin.....

    --

    1. When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend.

    2. Do not eat iPod shuffle.

  37. Re:Wrong wrong wrong by theguyfromsaturn · · Score: 2, Insightful
    You are forgetting one thing: we need to compress the hydrogen gas from atmospheric pressure to tank pressure. This is a 50% energy cost. Half your solar cells are generating hydrogen, and the other half are compressing it.
    Sometimes the hydrogen does not need to be compressed, but can be produced on the fly. There are still energy costs involved in the production of the raw products, of course, so I don't know how that would factor in. But definitely using compressed hydrogen directly sounds unsafe on top of expensive. You are also stuck with all the leakage problems which only get worse when you need high pressures. Maintenance costs of the feed system are sure to pile up also if past experience with potentially leaky systems serves me well.
    --
    I like my dinosaurs feathery, and my pterosaurs hairy (or is it pycnofibery?)
  38. To all the naysayers by tetrahedrassface · · Score: 2, Informative
    H2/societal integration CAN happen. All it takes is an administration that wants it to.

    For all the poo-poo I am reading about cracking Natural Gas to create hydrogen and thus pollute may I mention the said process is done so the C02 can be treated as a point-source pollution vs. a non-point source pollutant (ie internal combustion engines). That allows for the sequestration of Carbon people!

    Also, since the cracking of natural gas is done at a central site, the C02 can be sequestered instead of released into the atmophere. Electrolysis can be accomplished on a regional scale. All we need are some nifty pebble bed reactors, to provide us with safe energy for the electrolysis.

    People wake up, the future is coming like a frieght train. America needs to learn to dream again.

    Dusty (If you dont know what Carbon Sequestration is--- try google).

  39. Arnold's opening ceremony, and other follies by ziegast · · Score: 2, Funny

    While he's wondefully wealthy and can afford to buy one just for the sake of having one, Arnold was at least showing some leadership recently when he bought a GMC Hummer "H2H" converted to run on hydrogen rather than fuel. Just look for "Hydrogen Hummer Governor Arnold" at news.google.com or your favorite news outlet. Here's one article.

    The gas station to fill his ride is at LAX airport. How that would help the Governator working in Sacramento is beyond me. Who wants to go to LAX every time you need to fill up? and how many miles can a big beefy Hummer go before it needs a refill? The Chino multi-station pilot test at least seems more practical.

    Speaking of practical, just how practical is hydrogen going to be, anyway? Unless there is a huge improvement in the abundance of energy needed to seperate hydrogen atoms from water (or methane or other sources), other methods like bio-diesel or just plain electric are going to be more pratical ways to reduce US dependence on oil. If we somehow are able to implement pebble-nuke plants like the Chinese are doing, hydrogen processing might become more cost-effective.

  40. Biodiesel is probably the most viable for now. by MtViewGuy · · Score: 2, Informative

    Biodiesel is really what we should be concentrating on right now. Biodiesel pours right into pretty much any existing diesel engine and has only slightly less BTUs per gallon that petroleum diesel. Certainly biodiesel isn't as clean as hydrogen, but it's a whole heck of a lot cleaner than petroleum diesel and even more so than gasoline. The best part of biodiesel is the fact that you can start using it immediately in your unmodified diesel powered vehicle and not have to worry that you're going to be able to find some (currently) exotic fuel if you go on a trip. Worse case, just pour regular diesel in. Biodiesel would make the transition phase painless.

    The nice thing about biodiesel is the fact any crop that has a high carbohydrate count can be processed in to biodiesel fuel. And the best thing is that biodiesel fuel burns very cleanly, not even needing a diesel particulate trap! :-) All you need is a standard catalytic converter and a biodiesel-fuelled vehicle will likely meet the stringent Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicle standard.

    By the way, did you know that the very concept of biodiesel engines came from the original development work of Rudolf Diesel? The first Diesel engine ran off peanut oil, of all things! That explains why diesel fuel can be easily derived from plant sources. Also, there has been serious research into growing certain types of algae that could easily be refined into biodiesel fuel.

    Anyway, today's diesel engines are high-technology wonders that have effectively banished the clattering and smoky exhaust of older engines. Thanks to careful design, common-rail pressurized direct fuel injection and catalytic converters that also "burn off" diesel particulates, they are quiet, clean-burning, and sound exactly like a normal gasoline engine. Here in the USA, if you live in any of the 45 states where it's legal go drive the Mercedes-Benz E320 CDI, a vehicle that demonstrates very impressive acceleration performance but when driven at reasonable speeds gets fuel efficiency around 32-35 miles per US gallon! =)

    Anyway, I believe we'll see a large number of diesel-powered vehicles in the US market starting in Fall 2006. Thanks to the EPA mandate that all motor fuels can only have at most 15 parts per million of sulfur compounds in fuel starting September 2006, that makes it possible to develop modern turbodiesel engines that meet the ULEV standard, hence making them 50-state legal. And Americans will discover that modern diesel-powered cars are quiet, amazingly powerful (thanks to the very torquey nature of diesel engines in the low RPM range), and impressively clean-burning. I wouldn't be surprised that Honda brings over their well-regarded 2.2-liter I-4 i-CTDi engine for application in the Honda Accord, CR-V and Element models, and BMW brings over their 3.0-liter I-6 turbodiesel engine for the 3 and 5 Series automobiles.

    Also, because diesel engines have their torque peaks at relatively low RPM range, that makes them a perfect match for SUV's, pickup trucks and minivans. Can you imagine by 2008-2009 most of these vehicles switched to clean turbodiesel power, which means they will have at least 30-40% better fuel effiency than now? The GM Duramax turbodiesel engine used on their Chevy and GMC pickup trucks sports a far high torque peak than the equivalent gasoline engine, and is far more fuel efficient, too.

  41. Re:Great! by UlfGabe · · Score: 2, Informative

    Please explain how NOx gasses are produced...

    It was my understanding that a PROTON membrane allows only H+ ions through to react with ONLY oxygen....

    Your argument is based on hightemperature hydrocarbon and oxygen reaction in which some nitrogen in the air is fixed into oxygen.

    The reactions here occur at reasonably high temperatures, but ONLY oxygen and hydrogen react.
    this creates h20.

    Learn before posting, and dont spread disinformation.

    if your statements were true, then the human body would create NOx from its combustion reactions.

    --
    Check journal for info on Anti-TextBook, an idea by me.
  42. Biodiesel hybrids are the only future by shonagon53 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Hydrogen has no future. You need more energy to create it than you get out of it. Its "energy return on investment" (EROI) is negative. Biodiesel has a positive EROI.

    Moreover, as a carrier, hydrogen has all kinds of problems (safety, you need a major overhaul of the entire infrastructure, entirely new cars, etc...).

    Hybrid diesel and hybrid biodiesel cars are the only real alternative.

    In 2003, MIT's Lab for Energy and the Environment made a study comparing the entire lifecycle for idealized automotive drive systems (internal combustion, hybrids, fuel cells). The results were very clear:
    -straight gasoline scores worst of all
    -gasoline hybrids score far worse than diesel hybrids
    -diesel hybrids are nearly just as good as the best fuel cell systems.

    The study didn't include biodiesel in hybrid diesel cars, but any laymen can dedude that it is the technology of the future.

    You have to look at the entire lifecycle, when comparing technologies. And hydrogen/fuel cells are not efficient.
    MIT's study can be found here (pdf): http://lfee.mit.edu/publications/PDF/LFEE_2003-001 _RP.pdf

  43. Come on mods, get a chemistry textbook. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is not informative, its wrong. First of all, natural gas is not tied to fossil fuels. Currently we find alot of it with fossil fuels, but we don't need to.

    Second, natural gas is methane. It is worse to try and "crack" methane and convert it into carbon and hydrogen than it is to use other sources of hydrogen. In fact, you have it backwards. Methane is often produced by heating a mixture of hydrogen and coal. Why would anyone use hydrogen and coal to make methane, just so they could turn it back into hydrogen and coal? I know, they don't.

    NOx formation is no more a problem with hydrogen engines than ordinary engines using hydrocarbons. And guess what, they aren't formed. Isn't that weird? No, wait, that's completely normal, otherwise lighting a match in the air would cause NOx to form, creating more fuel, and more NOx, and it would spiral out of control and consume the entire atmosphere in flames. Nitrogen in the atmosphere is N2 and is stable enough that it will not break apart to form NOx molecules just because there is heat and or oxygen around.

    And finally, hydrogen is compressed to a liquid for transport and storage, allowing you to carry plenty of fuel just fine.

    The only question I have, is how did something so completely and totally wrong in every way get modded up to 5 informative?

  44. Re:And safer too by pfdietz · · Score: 2, Informative

    In any compressed gas, there are two effects going on. First, some molecules are close together and are weakly (and temporarily) bound. This reduces the stored energy in the system. The lower the temperature, the larger the fraction of molecules like this (and, eventually, the gas liquefies).

    On the other hand, some molecules, at any instant, are in the process of violently colliding. They are briefly in a state of close approach where some of their kinetic energy has been converted to positive potential energy. At a given density, the higher the temperature, the larger the fraction of molecules that are in this second condition. This adds stored energy to the system.

    For any gas, as you increase the temperature, the second effect eventually overcomes the first, and the gas has positive stored energy due to intermolecular interactions. This temperature is called the Joule inversion temperature. Hydrogen is one of the few gases for which this temperature is below room temperature.

  45. Re:HYDROGEN MINE FOR SALE by Winkhorst · · Score: 3, Funny

    Wonder of wonders! I have half a BILLION DOLLARS stashed away in a Nigerian bank from the estate of the late President Mbawasa Ngimima of Upper Revolta just waiting for a way to get it out of the country. Perhaps we could work out an arrangement...

    --
    "Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
  46. Re:And safer too by Shihar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hydrogen is actually not that unsafe. The thing about hydrogen is that when it leaks, it goes straight up, REALLY fast. This makes it much safer then what we currently use today in many ways.

    An antidotal story is that about a month or two back at National Semiconductor in South Portland Maine, they had a hydrogen explosion. Basically, a guy with a hydrogen truck pulled up to the building and got ready to pump the hydrogen into the tanks. When he went to go ground himself, he created a spark and this caused an explosion. Now, this truck isn't your average car, we are talking a freaking tank of liquid hydrogen under massive pressure.

    So, what happened? The explosion was loud enough that people inside the building thought an airplane had crashed (they are right next to an air port). The operator of the truck was totally unharmed. The explosion went straight up. It made a lot of noise, but did no damage. The high pressure of the tank meant that instead of the explosion running into the tank and, well, exploding, it acted like a blow torch. No one got hurt, and in the end the only thing that happened was that they just left the truck slowly burning its fuel until away until it was empty.

    In a properly designed car, safety is not a problem. You just need to make sure that your gas tank is well ventilated. So long as it can't build up and has a place to go, a hydrogen explosion is really not that bad. They are quick, loud, and straight up. It is an engineering probably easily solved.

    That said, I am not a fan of hydrogen. Hydrogen is cleaner the gas to be sure, but his a low energy density (IE, you need a bigger tank or you are not going to go as far), and more importantly, it is just a method of power translation. Hydrogen is like a power cable to your house, not the actual power plant. Hydrogen just takes dirty power (coal) or expensive power (nuclear, green) that we already blows some of the energy to the wind, and then stuffs it in your car.

    What we REALLY need to do is solve the power problems with the grid that we have right now first, THEN start worrying about cars. Once we can get some sort of green energy that is cost effective and reliable to replace our dirty and expensive methods of generating power, then you talk about wasting energy to create hydrogen.

    Personally, I think we are much better off working on hybrid technology and maybe slapping a solar panel or two onto SUVs to give them a little more power. People have shown that they are willing to buy cleaner cars at a slightly increased price just for bragging rights. It might not be everyone, but it certainly is a start. Use traditional methods of cleaning up cars first, green up the power grid, THEN worry about making cars clean.