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UK Establishes Fragmented Nanopolicy

hlovy writes "The BBC has a piece on British Science Minister Lord Sainsbury's long-sought reaction to a yearlong Royal Society study on the environmental and societal implications of nanotechnology. I've written ad nauseam on the Royal Society report here, here and even for the Wall Street Journal here."

51 comments

  1. Follow the lead of Wall St. by bigtallmofo · · Score: 5, Funny

    Rather than actually doing anything with Nanotechnology, the UK should instead follow the lead of many Wall St companies and just put the prefix "Nano" in their name. Nano-Kingdom sounds pretty good to me.

    Once you do this, you can expect all kinds of amazing profits!

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    1. Re:Follow the lead of Wall St. by FirienFirien · · Score: 4, Funny

      But Nanokingdom makes it sound either like the country is tiny, or the king (queen) is tiny. It'd trump micronesia though.

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    2. Re:Follow the lead of Wall St. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      the old joke:

      nanotechnology will lead to the destruction of mankind in 15 years - but until then it's a great investment...

    3. Re:Follow the lead of Wall St. by CdBee · · Score: 0

      Or there's the Mork and Mindy version.. Nanookingdom

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    4. Re:Follow the lead of Wall St. by stuffisgood · · Score: 1

      Would be interested seeing this concept applied to Bangkok...

    5. Re:Follow the lead of Wall St. by Saeger · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The opposite is also true.

      Nanotech will be a great investment until molecular manufacturing is democratized, at which point it will do for bits of matter what the computer did for bits of data.

      The "Napsterization" of food, clothing, diamond, INSERT_ANY_OBJECT_HERE, etc, turns scarcity-based economics on its head. Nobody'll get "rich" starting a company (like, say, Wal-Mart) that sells copies of objects anymore. At this point everything is open source and everybody can live self-sufficiently; just add energy (who 'owns' the sun?) and recycled molecules.

      --
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    6. Re:Follow the lead of Wall St. by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Nope.. Micronesia still wins by a factor of 1000.

      milli = 10^-3
      micro = 10^-6
      nano = 10^-9
      pico = 10^-12

      At least let them enjoy their superiority to an imaginary country.

    7. Re:Follow the lead of Wall St. by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Unless by trump, you meant "be inferior to."

    8. Re:Follow the lead of Wall St. by king-manic · · Score: 1

      The opposite is also true.
      Nanotech will be a great investment until molecular manufacturing is democratized, at which point it will do for bits of matter what the computer did for bits of data.

      The "Napsterization" of food, clothing, diamond, INSERT_ANY_OBJECT_HERE, etc, turns scarcity-based economics on its head. Nobody'll get "rich" starting a company (like, say, Wal-Mart) that sells copies of objects anymore. At this point everything is open source and everybody can live self-sufficiently; just add energy (who 'owns' the sun?) and recycled molecules.


      You woudl then have a energy and rare materials driven economy. You cannot fake or reproduce energy and rare materials and while the sun is great it will not supply everyone with enoguh energy density.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
  2. Jake 2.0 by millahtime · · Score: 0

    Just like Jake 2.0, instead of geeks ruling the world... it would be super geeks ruling the world. Until we get canceled.

    1. Re:Jake 2.0 by stuffisgood · · Score: 1

      ...Or until that new Blaster 2.0 virus hits the streets...

  3. Just like government... by bc90021 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...from the article:

    "The UK government has responded to one major report into nanotechnologies by ordering another review."

    "The Royal Society told the BBC News website it was encouraged by the government's commitment to research, but was disappointed that no extra funding was proposed for it."

    The UK wants to be a world leader in nanotechnology, but they are bogging down the reports with reports on reports, and not providing funding. Looks like things will have to change if they want to reach their world-leadership goal!

    1. Re:Just like government... by millahtime · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The UK wants to be a world leader in nanotechnology, but they are bogging down the reports with reports on reports, and not providing funding. Looks like things will have to change if they want to reach their world-leadership goal!

      This is a product of both boomer society and the fact that they don't want to make the wrong decision on such a big topic. So, they are trying to figure out every angle before they make hasty decisions. Granted, they may not be going about doing this the most productive way but there is good logic behind their thinking. To understand the risks before going down a path.

    2. Re:Just like government... by w.p.richardson · · Score: 2, Funny
      Scientific advancement does not wait for this sort of nonsense.

      If it can be done, it will - reports be damned!

      --

      Curb CO2 emissions: Kill yourself today!

    3. Re:Just like government... by gowen · · Score: 4, Insightful
      If it can be done, it will - reports be damned!
      While that's certainly true, it doesn't mean that it necessarily *should*.
      The fact that some unregulated doctor in a lawless country can practice eugenics, for example, doesn't mean the UK should, merely to maintain some perceived technological advantage.

      We're should be civilised enough to say "That's advantageous to us, but morally and ethically repugnant, and potentially dangerous. Therefore, we choose not to do it, even though we can."
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    4. Re:Just like government... by EvilNight · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Problem is, it becomes something of an arms race. Just because you refrain, is no guarantee someone else will hold back. It's the opposite really; if the technology has some value, it'll be researched whereever it is possible to do so. Therefore, we're screwed... any technology that has potential benefits will be explored and realized by whoever can afford to do it, regardless of policy. The technology will simply move to the places where its continued development is not an issue.

      This puts us in the unenviable position of trying to make sure the technologies that could cause the most harm are developed primarily in countries we can trust not to use them unwisely (mostly by fostering an environment that gives benefits to that technology's development that cannot be found elsewhere). It also requires us to not drag our feet on any ethical issues that arise with technology, because the technology will not wait for us to become comfortable with it before being used.

      Nanotech, in particular, has some very lethal potential failure models that could result in world-altering problems (Ecophagy.) The kinds of problems that this failed nanotech could create can only be effectively combatted by equally advanced nanotech, so again we need the technology itself to properly guard against its own use.

      Usually, the argument of "should we" when applied to technology ends up being an ineffective sidebar that has no relevance on its development. We will. We can't stop ourselves. Sometimes the "should we" has beneficial consequences, however. For example, the USA has about a hundred less pressurized/boiling water fission reactors because of it, and this is good, because the modern designs for integral and accelerator driven models are far cleaner and safer than those models; almost to the point of making fusion power irrelevant for the near future. If we build nuclear today, it will be better than if we had done it in the 70's. This is a direct result of the "should we" triggered by three mile island.

      --
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    5. Re:Just like government... by Ithika · · Score: 1

      Since when has eugenics been a "technology", especially one that requires government investment? Killing and sterilising people hardly needs any more research. Nor will eugenics give anyone a technological advantage. A very poor example.

    6. Re:Just like government... by Dagowolf · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, eugenics was a social technology used by several governments to "strengthen" the genetic lines of their populace. The United States, the UK, Italy, and of course Germany all ran quite indepth programs of eugenics, with government funding, from the early 1900s until the 1930s (except Germany who continued a bit longer).

      Also, it wasn't always about "killing and sterilising [sic] people," in the case of the United States and UK in particular it was research into how to prevent the deterioration of the human mental abilities.

    7. Re:Just like government... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > "killing and sterilising [sic] people,"

      FYI, "sterilising" is the accepted spelling in civilised countries such as the UK, Canada, and Australia.

  4. Public opinion by FirienFirien · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's unfortunate that the reports are so mass-ignored. The summary of conclusions of the report on the report tends to be what gets out to the public (and presumably not far off what most of Parliament think the topic is about), by which time it's so much mush.

    Unless, of course, it's a problematic/slightly dangerous scenario, in which case the papers take it, and distort ("DOOM!") a different summary of conclusion of report, and shout it about for about a day until we get back to who's done what else scandalous.

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  5. I object! by caluml · · Score: 2, Funny

    Hey - what's up?! You're making us sound like incompetent bumbling fools! :) We invented the backtick (`), don't you know?

  6. Appropriate by ergo98 · · Score: 5, Funny

    So you could almost say that their nanopolicy is in lots of tiny parts, scattered about, each individually working towards a common goal?

    Sounds appropriate.

    1. Re:Appropriate by konstantinlevin · · Score: 1

      Right now there's only one nanopolicy. It's 1*10^-9 of a single policy unit. Scaled down, a nanopolicy is stronger and more efficient than a normal-sized policy, but the application is still mostly theory.

      --
      What the hell was I supposed to be doing? I was going to do something, and now I'm on /.
  7. UK develops nanopolicy by flumps · · Score: 2, Funny

    .. but unfortunately no one could read it cause it was written on a pinhead.

    Prince Charles spent hours having the charter written into his scalp and was said to be "over the moon".

    --
    "So there he is, risen from the dead. Like that fella, E. T." - Father Ted Crilly
  8. It worked for Robin Williams. by AtariAmarok · · Score: 2, Funny

    He made a mint putting "Nano" into his comedy routine. Shazbot!

    --
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    1. Re:It worked for Robin Williams. by lisaparratt · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      And lost it again putting drugs up his nose? :)

  9. Beating around the bush again eh? by t_allardyce · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I would prefer they established some much needed policy on the touchy world of biometrics first. At the moment the government (like allot of governments) has this crazy idea that iris and finger print scanning are totally ok and theres absolutely no issue both security and human rights wise. Also with the RFID. bloody hell, nano technology might be an important subject for humanity, but biometrics and stupid wireless policy is here right now and needs attention today. The problem is of course that we didnt tackle this subject 20 years ago so now its too late.

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    1. Re:Beating around the bush again eh? by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      Yeah, Wesley Snipes with a scalpel can defeat any biometric security out there.

      Here's my nanotechnology policy based on the books of Greg Bear. "Blood Music"? Not so good. "Queen of Angels"? Pretty good.

      (Yes, I know "Blood Music" wasn't nanotechnology, but it was the same basic idea.)

      --
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    2. Re:Beating around the bush again eh? by UpnAtom · · Score: 1

      Indeed, Blair himself admitted to being a technophobe.

      Did you know that the new legislation also allows police to scan the database containing all our facial recognition biometrics to correlate CCTV images?

      Is Blair aware of the frightening prospect of collating ALL computerised data held on us through our Unique Identity Numbers?

      Find out how you can help the No2ID cause.

    3. Re:Beating around the bush again eh? by t_allardyce · · Score: 1

      I guess he is unaware how many types of finger-print scanners have been broken already, and how when you're finger print eventually is stolen (if you touch enough things or have it on enough data-bases its GOING to happen) it can't be 'changed' like your pin number. I bet he probably didnt bother thinking about what method of stealing biometrics might emerge - ie stealling your body parts! i havn't heard of a single report recommending that human rights law should give everyone the choice of biometrics or conventional security, its all gung-hoe because some bloody biometrics company wants to ship as many units as they can.

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    4. Re:Beating around the bush again eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pardon me while I go to the automoted ATM machine and use my personal PIN number.

  10. Nanopolicy... ? by coder.keitaro · · Score: 0

    At first I thought that it was the British government comming up with an insignificantly small policy ... oh wait!

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  11. Nanotech misconceptions by nasor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I am a researcher who is currently working on "nanotechnology"; 2-dimensional films that are a single molecule thick, to be precise. I'm puzzled by exactly what sorts of unique risks people think might be associated with nanotechnology. The BBC article summed it up very well:

    "Nanotech manipulates molecules and even atoms to make novel materials. This precision engineering exploits unusual electrical, optical and other properties."

    That's it. No one is trying to make swarms of tiny robots that devour everything in their path. Even if someone wanted to do that, no one would have even the faintest idea of how to go about doing it. The mere fact that nanotechnology involves very small particles doesn't mean that it poses some sort of unique health risk. The world is already teaming with nanoparticles of all sorts. Specks of dust, tiny flakes of rock or mineral material, all sorts of plant spores, bits of soot from car emissions...we've always been surrounded by nanomaterials.

    1. Re:Nanotech misconceptions by Tenebrious1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The world is already teaming with nanoparticles of all sorts. Specks of dust, tiny flakes of rock or mineral material, all sorts of plant spores, bits of soot from car emissions...we've always been surrounded by nanomaterials.

      And most of them are harmful to the body. Tiny flakes of rock or minerals like asbestos cause mesophelioma, plant spores cause allergies and some even cause death, soot causes asthma and other breathing difficulties. It's reckless to say nano structures will have no adverse affects without testing. It's better to lay down guidelines for testing to ensure the risks are studied before these things make their way into the world.

      --
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    2. Re:Nanotech misconceptions by Dagowolf · · Score: 2, Informative

      There are possible risks with nanotechnology, especially since we don't have a full grasp of what the newly engineered particles can do.

      Gunter Oberdorster at University of Rochester http://www2.envmed.rochester.edu/envmed/tox/facult y/oberdoerster.html found that fullerenes caused "damage" to the brains of fish. Now a researcher from Rice recently gave a lecture here at the U of South Carolina and called some of that research into question, but still you have to wonder. Also, there is the problem of metals from nanopackaging surrounding chemo delivery particles http://www.gatech.edu/news-room/release.php?id=450 possibly collecting in the pancreas. Also research on some particles have suggested that they might cross the blood-brain barrier in humans. While this might be good for dealing with brain tumors http://www.nano.org.uk/thisweek78.htm it also raises the very real possibility that something we don't want in the brain might get there.

      While I'm not all about regulating the nano-industry into oblivion, I would rather we treat it with much respect. I know that there is an "Asilomar" style conference on nano in the planning for either late this year or early next year partially sponsored by U of South Carolina http://www.nano.sc.edu/

      Let's not assume anything is safe, after all, look what happened when nuclear power was tumpeted as the salvation discovery.

    3. Re:Nanotech misconceptions by dances+with+elks · · Score: 1

      apparently scientists can manipulate atoms to make entirely new molecules which could be disasterous in the hands of terrorists, despots, slashdotters etc CHEMISTRY! on an related note all you need to do in the UK get more funding from EPSRC (engineering and physical science research council) is to add nano- to whatever your doing, which can be kind of annoying if you are doing nanotech research rather than just trying to cash in

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    4. Re:Nanotech misconceptions by Quantum+Fizz · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Tiny flakes of rock or minerals like asbestos cause mesophelioma, plant spores cause allergies and some even cause death, soot causes asthma and other breathing difficulties.

      You prove the poster's point. After 20,000 years of fire, we better now decide not to burn any more wood until we can discover just how bad all the carbon nanotubes and buckyballs, along with amorphous soot, that are formed in the fireplace really are for people. Studying health problems is a worthy goal, but why do you suddenly want to do this NOW because of a field called nanotechnology comes about? Why is this field different from any other field? It's not, but people are so much more scared of nanotech than other fields for some reason, probably because of all the 'grey-goo' sci-fi stories. Pretty similar to people being scared shitless of radioactivity in the 50's and 60's (when all the Marvel characters got their powers from radioactivity), as compared to the Spiderman movie from a few years ago, where Spiderman got his power not from a radioactive spider but from a genetically-modified spider.

      It's better to lay down guidelines for testing to ensure the risks are studied before these things make their way into the world.

      So where do you draw the line? I'm researching in nanotech too, in the university. How are we supposed to test nanotech systems if we cannot study ways to build them because people think it'll inevitably make a self-replicating army of nanobots that will devour all carbon life on the planet?

      Should I therefore not try learning to program Python because I might accidently create a self-replicating virus program that could infect every computer on the internet and eventually bring the whole net down? And that we should form a python taskforce to adequately make sure this isn't a big enough risk before letting people program it?

      It's better to lay down guidelines for testing to ensure the risks are studied before these things make their way into the world.

      How does this work for chemistry? Ie, if a company wants to ship a new plastic polymer in their flyswatter, do they have to be approved by the FDA? What if they change the plastic formula only slightly, or mix two different plastics together that haven't been mixed previously. What are the rules in that situation?

      But for nanotech, at this point nobody's talking about mass producing consumer products with easily-removable carbon nanotubes or anything. Nanotech is still pretty much confined to nanotech-specific laboratories (there are companies that will sell you raw nanotubes, or furnaces for growing them, etc).

      If you want to limit putting products into market that use nanotubes until a few years of research have been conducted, well that's one way. But to suspend all nanotech research until we know all the risks is ridiculous because we cannot study the risks if we don't make the nanotech systems to begin with.

      For example, one big area of nanotech is determining how to actually construct nano-scale systems. Shouldn't research within this field continue so people can figure out better ways to make nanoscale systems so they can study them better? And of course any study of new materials should involve studying associated health risks, but does it make sense to suspend all research until all health risks have been studied? How do you research health risks without researching the systems anyway?

      But seriously, why is a scientist making a carbon-nanotube memory chip to sell to the markets in any way more dangerous than a chemist making a polymer that involves DeoxyriboBozoChloroNovicain, a polymer which has never been used before either?

    5. Re:Nanotech misconceptions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "And most of them are harmful to the body."

      Yes. Mayonaise killed Maynard Jackson.
      He did get an airport half named after him though.

      For the idiot /. moderator ready to pounce on the -1 off-topic button, mayonaise is a nanotech product, as are most emulsions. Do your homework.

      Life is harmful to the body. Get over it.

    6. Re:Nanotech misconceptions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know.. a lot of the early radioactivity researchers died of radiation exposure becuase they had no idea of the risks. These being the people with nobel prizes on the topic.

      eg: Marie Curie

      As you deal with more advanced and powerful technology the magnitude of potential disaster increases. The obvious response to this is to proceed with a more measured and careful approach.

    7. Re:Nanotech misconceptions by Quantum+Fizz · · Score: 2, Informative
      You obviously don't work in the field. Your analogy is flawed because back in the day we could easily produce gamma rays and other radioactive sources, we just didn't know what the effects were. Today we are extremely limited in what nanoscale systems we can make, so much of the research conducted now is to develop new ways to control atoms and actually make atomic and nanotech systems.

      I never said not to "proceed with a more measured and careful approach". I pointed out that stopping research is backward becasue we don't know how to even build many nanoscale systems at this point. Without ways to build them, we cannot have the nanoscale systems to test. How can you test something you cannot make? Simulations only let you get so far, and considering the mesoscopic physics involved, simulations will be extremely limiting (you're stuck between the two extremes, so your large sample-size statistics starts to hit a brick wall, yet the bodies are complex enough that you cannot adequately simulate the atom scale). YOu need nanoscale systems to test nanoscale systems, and you cannot test nanoscale systems unless you develop methods to build them, etc.

      So stopping research to test them is a catch-22.

  12. No No by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As people increase our autonomy and power to affect one another, and become less governable, we're seeing more threats that law can control only by 100% effectiveness. And with the minimal effectiveness of international law, combined with the ease of travel of international capital and information, research can't be effectively banned. The only effective global legislation of science appeals rather to positive reinforcement than to negative enforcement, prohibition.

    Nanotech, cloning and stemcells (nanobiotech), nukes - the cats are out of the bag, and people will find funding and labspace to pursue these techs. Especially if the supply/demand ratio is enhanced for the vendors by prohibition. But if governments instead funnel money and organization to the beneficial, safer applications of these sciences, the resulting brain drain will keep the industries much safer. Why risk working in the profitless, destructive, risky world of "grey goo" research, when there's fun and profit in solarcell paint - and everyone else is doing it? Just as fruitless as telling someone "don't think of a banana", laws can't stop people from researching some of this dangerous tech. But if we tell everyone to "think of an orange", we'll be able to influence development into much more productive channels. Without engaging in the counterproductive and tyrannical futility of science prohibition.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  13. I read it as "nanopoly"... by Dave_M_26 · · Score: 3, Funny
    and thought...

    I for one welcome our tiny nanolords.

    and then I hit myself for it, sorry.

    Dave

    1. Re:I read it as "nanopoly"... by dances+with+elks · · Score: 1

      isn't that the game with very very small hotels

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  14. Re:Lord Sainsbury == uniformed blithering crony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sigh. The only sad lonely person who would mark that as a troll post is the kind of person with no understanding about the current UK government or a New Labour toady.

    You know Mr Toady, the New Labour thing it's kind of like...um..corrupt. I think that's the word. You won't get a slice of the pie you know.

    Read Animal farm to understand.

  15. Not long now! by spankey51 · · Score: 1

    Soon, toner wars will cloud skies over all of us... how cool.

    --
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  16. Exit Mundi by walter73 · · Score: 1

    The use of nano technology is one of the doom scenarios of Exit Mundi, a website dedicated how mankind can finish...

  17. Comparing tfa to the discussion... by FirienFirien · · Score: 1

    With the point of nanotechnology being to make things smaller, a nanokingdom would, as stated, trump Micronesia.

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