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QA != Testing

gManZboy writes "Original author of Make and IBM Researcher, Stu Feldman has written an overview of what should be (but is sadly perhaps not) familiar ground to many Slashdotters: Quality Assurance. He argues that QA is not equivalent to 'testing', and also addresses the oft-experienced (apparent) conflict between QA-advocates and 'buisiness goals.'"

76 of 342 comments (clear)

  1. Requirements? by bigtallmofo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    From TFA:

    QA is described as making sure a project is "measurably meeting expectations and conforming to requirements"

    At my job, requirements are often one-sentence requests with no needed detail whatsoever. If it then doesn't go to a business analyst in the IT department, that's what the programmers work from. When the QA process starts, it makes it easy to say that you've complied with all details of the requirements.

    --
    I'm a big tall mofo.
    1. Re:Requirements? by PepeGSay · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is a sign that there was no quality assurance during the requirement gathering. Which probably means you were not actually starting your "QA process" , but were actually starting "testing".

    2. Re:Requirements? by ColdGrits · · Score: 3, Informative

      "When the QA process starts,"

      The QA process should start right at the beginning of the project, when you are developing the requirements (i.e. before the specification is created).

      You are not using QA at your company. If you were, then you would have a proper, detailed specification and list of requirements, which benefits everyone (the customer, the designers, the testers - everyone).

      --
      People should not be afraid of their governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.
    3. Re:Requirements? by Twylite · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are two parts to quality. The second part of the IEEE definition is "The degree to which a system, component, or process meets customer or user needs or expectations".

      Although Feldman leaves out the second part (I believe it comes from another standard), he alludes to its importance in his discussion of how stringent QA must be, indicating that software for different purposes will have different quality requirements according to the needs of its users.

      Quality Assurance is not possible in the absence of requirements and specifications. Although we (the company I work for) often receive requirements with minimal detail, we have addressed the quality problem by writing a (relatively) detailed specification up front, and presenting it to the customer. Effectively we're saying "this is what you're going to get for your money, okay?". It's just prudent practice, but it gives us a goal and a way to achieve quality (by both definitions).

      You can find more on the combining the technical and business approaches to quality in my essay The Quality Gap.

      --
      i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
    4. Re:Requirements? by drgonzo59 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I worked for a company that designed a major CAD product and the code was millions and millions of lines. Anyway, there was a scripting language built into it and a mode to run the application in batch mode. So all the user input could be scripted. Then we had a hefty team of QA/QC people who were in charge of mentaining a ton of testcases that consisted of input, the some script that operated on it and an ouput to compare the result with. All the testcases took days or even weeks to run, initially it worked fairly well. When new features were added to the program it was a pain in the arse to go and change all those testcases that now were supposed to look different. The problem was even worse because they had co-ops(interns) doing it, who had no experience and had no idea what was going on. After years, many testcases became un-usable after so many changes and features added and it the QA became a mess. The release cycles got longer and it was harder and harder to keep track of bugs. I don't know what happened then because I left just about then...

    5. Re:Requirements? by Eric+Giguere · · Score: 5, Interesting

      For good reading on the design/requirements problem, I recommend Alan Cooper's The Inmates Are Running the Asylum. Talks a lot about how products can meet all their requirements and yet still fail because the requirements weren't right to begin with.

    6. Re:Requirements? by Unnngh! · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I've found a number of ways to work around a lack of requirements. A good specification is one, but if you are so inclined a static prototype can often achieve as much if not more from the customer's perspective. A couple hours of use case gathering with management and the customer can also achieve amazing results, without the need for lengthy documentation or weeks and months of back-and-forth.

      Then you just have to convince everyone to stick to what they've agreed to when they ask you to change everything halfway through coding!

    7. Re:Requirements? by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 2, Informative

      Reminds me of *every* programming job I've ever had... apart from one where they got into this 'QA' nonsense (which seemed to be mostly about putting 'quality' posters all over the office and making the shareholders feel fuzzy). Then we spent 90% of the time filling in stupid forms (specifications for *every* bug fix, 10 page essays for *every* enhancement, 2 hour meetings *every* day where we read out these forms and ticked them off an endlessly growing list) and never got any programming done.. the company went bust.

    8. Re:Requirements? by ColdGrits · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "A good specification is one, but if you are so inclined a static prototype can often achieve as much if not more from the customer's perspective."

      In that case you have a specification! In the form of your static prototype.

      Nowehere does it say that a specification HAS to be solely a written document...

      --
      People should not be afraid of their governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.
    9. Re:Requirements? by pohl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I haven't read the book, but someone at work used to have a copy on their desk, and it used to annoy me. The environment here is that the only clueful people are those who are writing the code, and this manifests itself as a broken QA environment, starting from totally broken functional specs. This had the side effect of putting a lot of decision making power into the hands of the programmers, which the owner of this book did not like. In my circles this book was jokingly called The Cooks Are Running the Kitchen. I hope the content of the book isn't as offensive as the title.

      --

      The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...

    10. Re:Requirements? by pete-classic · · Score: 2, Funny

      A specification must be an MS Word document. You must have missed the memo on that.

      -Peter

    11. Re:Requirements? by mbolton · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm always astonished at people's admonitions that you can't test or have quality assurance (or quality products, for that matter) without great requirements documents. Yet in 15 years in this silly business, I've never heard anyone say "We are very proud of our requirements documents. They serve our purposes perfectly, and we would do nothing to change them." Not once. ---Michael B.

    12. Re:Requirements? by soft_guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      but if you are so inclined a static prototype can often achieve as much if not more

      Depends on what you are building. On some of my past products, I've used prototypes. We have a project here that has is really heavy on UI and has a massive prototyping effort going back and forth between Human Factors, Product Manager, and Engineering.

      On the other hand, I am currently on a project where a static prototype would not be of any value. The user interface is a tiny part of the project. Also, the requirements are extremely complicated and fluid. We have had to start using a requirements tracking system. (Kind of like bug tracking, but requirements tracking.) We regularly "scrub" requirements in order to remove ambiguity.

      The other great thing about this company is that we have highly qualified QA folks who are involved in projects from the very beginning and are empowered to prevent a product from shipping until it meets the company's quality goals.

      If you are a developer, QA is your best friend whether you know it or not. I highly recommend that you recognize that these folks have a skill set that you probably don't even if they don't know how to program. And tell them you recognize that! QA at a lot of places is underappreciated. (It was at Microsoft when I worked there.)

      --
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    13. Re:Requirements? by Wybaar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, if you're a company like Boeing or Toyota, it's kind of nice to be able to say "The process we're using will produce the same results when applied to this plane/car today as it's done thousands or millions of times in the past." It reassures customers (and government investigators, were something to go wrong) a bit more than "Sure, we're trying a new procedure for this $VERY_EXPENSIVE plane/car you just purchased from us. It should give basically the same results."

      I like the quote you gave from the paper. It doesn't matter if the way the product is working is the way it's documented to work. It doesn't matter if you ship stone tablets you received on Mt. Sinai containing a statement that the product is working as it is documented to work. If it doesn't work the way the customer thinks it should work, then customers will either report the behavior as a bug or will request an enhancement to the product to get it to work the way they think it should.

      --
      Y|
  2. Quality? by ceeam · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IME, Quality = Knowledgeable_Staff_On_Good_Salary + No_Deadlines. Unfortunately, this formula larglely is not compatible with business world. So, in the mean time, customers should be grateful if software has been _somehow_ tested and mostly works.

    1. Re:Quality? by z80x86 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I do not know if I agree with that strict formula you proposed. I have always felt that approaching software with a clear plan for its future is the best way to ensure a quality final product. While systems may often appear to be growing organically, its evolution must be controlled so that it does not deviate far from what was originally expected of it.

    2. Re:Quality? by patrixx · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Funny, I would say Quality = Knowledgeable_Staff_On_Good_Salary + Deadlines

      BOVE'S THEOREM: The remaining work to finish in order to reach your goal increases as the deadline approaches.

      PARKINSON'S LAW: Work expands to fill the time available for its completion.

    3. Re:Quality? by the+grace+of+R'hllor · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Deadlines focus the development effort. Without the need to ever finish anything, you'll never finish anything because there's *always* something you can add or improve.

      Milestones keep the development on track, and deadlines are used in projectplanning to determine an end state for the development project.

      Besides all this, lots'o'time doesn't give you quality, necessarily. Look at knowledgable modern artists; all the time in the world, and all they produce is a pile of crap.

    4. Re:Quality? by thecardinal · · Score: 3, Informative

      IME what you normally get is :
      a) Knowledgeable staff on average salary + unrealistic deadlines, somehow managing to motivate themselves to do a good job
      and then
      b) Average management using the abilities of said knowledgeable staff, getting all the praise for the projects somehow coming in on time, and getting a huge pay rise for their "efforts".

      I think I may be getting just a little bitter and twisted about my career prospects.

    5. Re:Quality? by hackstraw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      BOVE'S THEOREM: The remaining work to finish in order to reach your goal increases as the deadline approaches.

      PARKINSON'S LAW: Work expands to fill the time available for its completion.


      This is why I don't believe in deadlines (to a degree).

      _Everything_ is a work in progress, deadlines are rarely met, or if they are the stress and rush is rarely worth the satisfaction of meeting the deadline.

      I would strongly recommend all people to read How to Get Control of Your Time and Your Life. The guy is annoyingly into time management. Its his fulltime job! He sets his watch 3 minutes fast so he's "ahead of the world", and always takes advantage of those 5 or so minute waits to make lists of things to do and whatnot. But here is the best thing I got from the book. Keep in mind that this dude is anally retentive -- bigtime.

      He lets his employees bring pleasure stuff to work with them, and as soon as they finish what they are tasked to do he lets them read, do puzzles, sew, or whatever they want while at work.

      My jaw dropped when I was reading those pages. That did not make any sense to me whatsoever.

      Then he said why. He said that if he gave someone a set time to do something, they would stretch it out to finish exactly at that time. By letting people not have a deadline and do something they want to do when finished with their work, he was actually able to get _more_ work out of them. It was also clear to him without taking any of his time to tell when his employees were done with their work and could be tasked with something else. Completely without any communication.

      A side benefit, is that the employees actually feel more free, and get their work done in a more timely manor than if he gave them a deadline.

    6. Re:Quality? by DerekLyons · · Score: 2
      _Everything_ is a work in progress, deadlines are rarely met, or if they are the stress and rush is rarely worth the satisfaction of meeting the deadline.
      Um.. Not everything, not by a long shot, and it's rarely about the satisfaction or meeting a deadline. It depends greatly on the kind of software you are writing, and the immediate goals of the larger system the software is part of.

      F'rinstance; the software that drove the missile fire control system I worked with. Sure, overall it was a constant work in progress, with no real 'deadline' for minor fixes and upgrades to a mature and widely deployed system. But...

      We were scheduled to shoot a test bird, carrying a development warhead. The software modifications needed *had* to be completed, tested, and shipped by a certain date. Test launches that the warhead folks could piggyback on only happened a couple of times a year, and late delivery meant potentially wasting the time of the hundreds of people directly involved in the shot - not to mention potentially delaying the return of the launching ship to operational status.

      Nor was it an option to simply wait to schedule the launch until the software was ready. That could mean months of delay for everyone else... And no data for the hardware folks to work with until the launch was actually accomplished.
  3. To sum it up by PepeGSay · · Score: 5, Informative

    Quality assurance is a process that runs through the entire project, testing is a component of that process.

    When building software there is a tendency to lump quality assurance and testing together precipitously at the end of a project. The distinction that is made in this article is an important one, true quality and successful projects are obtained by having quality assurance as a project long process. Then you have quality assurance during requirements, design, development and yes even testing.

  4. Let's say what Linus says about QA by cerberusss · · Score: 5, Funny

    Let me be the first to quote Linus Torvalds: "Testing? What's that? If it compiles, it is good, if it boots up it is perfect."

    --
    8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    1. Re:Let's say what Linus says about QA by confused+one · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hell, from his perspective, if it boots, it's time to pass it off to the willing horde of beta testers...

  5. Good QA by rdc_uk · · Score: 2, Informative

    Good QA begins when the Business Case proposing a new project gets reviewed.

    It continues constantly until the Project Post Mortem gets reviewed.

    QA should be involved in every activity regarding the projet in between. (including reviewing the requirements ellicitation process)

    Happily, when I worked in QA (for a telecoms test equipment manufacturer) that was how we did things. We, in QA, were responsible to the QA Director, and the Managing Director, and nobody else - that gets engineering in touch with you early and ofen...

  6. Any chance.. by opusman · · Score: 5, Funny

    ..Slashdot editors could apply QA to the spelling in posted stories?

    It's "business", not "buisiness".

  7. QA != Testing by coolcold · · Score: 5, Insightful

    and clever != good marks in exams
    testing doesn't make the software any better but testing do find bugs which developers missed. Quality assurance is to make sure that the software is of good enough quality before release and testing does confirm the case.

    --
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  8. testing? by fizze · · Score: 4, Informative

    testing can only prove the presence of an error, not its absence.

    On another note, QA and QM methodes may sound incredibly dull and based upon "duh - how else should I do this, dumbass?", but are in fact highly sophisticated.
    Not because they are not readical new, but because they are radically in their consistency. Think of something, and its error and faults, then of their causes, and their effects and impacts. Prefferably add fault probabilities, too. Then start over again.

    It is constant feedback throughout the whole design process that is most important.

    --
    Powerful is he who overpowers his temptations.
  9. Re:"Buisness" as usual by rdc_uk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No.

    What you have described is a large bug-hunting exercise.

    QA is a process by which errors are supposed to be PREVENTED, not FOUND OUT.

    That's why QA != Testing

    Better QA == fewer bugs to find (it assures you are building quality)

    Better Testing == more bugs found (it is, in fact, closer quality verification)

  10. Six Sigma by millahtime · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Six Sigma is one of the many quality processes out there that can apply to everything from design to manufacturing. The idea is to remove variation so that everything you do is always the same. Quite boring but effective.

    This can apply to the way code is written and does in some companies.

    1. Re:Six Sigma by 6Yankee · · Score: 2, Funny

      The idea is to remove variation so that everything you do is always the same.


      They introduced that in a company I once worked for. (Thankfully I'm out.) They did a big presentation to the whole company, telling us how wonderful it was going to be, and explaining that it wasn't about quality but consistency. A voice piped up from the back... "So if every bill goes out 18 months late, we win!"

  11. What is QA Always a Separate Organization? by Black-Man · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Every software company I've worked for, the QA department was always separate from Development. Then the classic mistake was always repeated... bring in QA at the tail end of a project and expect them to certify it and find all the bugs.

    Madness!!

    1. Re:What is QA Always a Separate Organization? by rdc_uk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I used to work as a QA person.

      In our company QA was a separate organisation, for 3 simple reasons;

      1 - you are auditing and commenting on other people's work, not in a peer review "did you think about doing it like this" way, but in a "That is not acceptable; redo" way. Close colleagues in a department are NOT suitable for that role; you cannot be expected to say that about the person in the next cubicle's work, whereas a department with that as their job will be accepted when they do it.

      2 - Keeping up to date on the quality requirements, combined with performing your live QA duties for the engineering department was a full time job. Or at least, it certainly was if the company wanted to keep its ISO9001 certification.

      3 - Its a case of the buck stopping here. In our company project proposals, requirements and plans HAD to be signed off by QA before the funding got released for the project. At the same time, due to our doing telecoms stuff, we had a legal responsibility to sign off that the EMC conformity, physical safety and electrical safety tests had been conducted properly and passed. (and that meant constantly checking updates of the various national standards to ensure the company standards used the strictest requirements in each case). Random engineer is not good enough. (you have to have passed the right courses to audit each various section, need to be a qualified ISO9001 auditor to do the internal audits for that etc)

      Professional QA is a full and seperate job. (but I did get to play with the 20KV discharge equipment!)

  12. If it works it still may not by bblazer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think that the real issue here is the difference between code that works, and code that meets the business rules and need. Anyone can make good code, and have it compile and execute. The problem comes when that great code still doesn't fit the need that it was supposed to fill in the first place. This issue has two hurdles if it is to be overcome. First, are coders that have no business knowledge. Second, business pros that have no software development experience. The coders complain that they weren't given the proper details of the project, and the business guys complain that the coders know nothing about business. I think that all biz people need to take a basic programming course, and all coders need to take a business class. The gulf of poor communication between the two camps is quite large without it.

    --
    My .bashrc can beat up your .bashrc!
    1. Re:If it works it still may not by StormReaver · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "I think that all biz people need to take a basic programming course, and all coders need to take a business class."

      That's simple, logical, and of no practical use. As part of my CIS degree, I was well over half way (close to three quarters) to a Business Management degree. It is absolutely useless for all of the business software I have to write.

      My current project is to rewrite the entire county tax collection system. There is no business class that would have prepared me for that because each county collector does things differently.

      I knew nothing about tax collection when I started this project, and the county collector knows nothing about software design (his belief that Fox Pro has exposed him to software development, and his need to micromanage notwithstanding).

      He and I frequently meet to discuss the business rules his office currently uses, and the business rules he would like to be able to use. He tells me each feature he wants, and I create all the ends (front, middle, and back) to do it. Then we review the front ends and results from the backend.

      This iterative process continues, on a feature by feature basis, until we are both satisfied that each feature works as it should and the user interface is streamlined for efficiency.

      The bottom line is that detailed business understanding by the developers is both unnecessary and mostly useless. Software design knowledge by business people is also mostly useless (and in fact will likely be very detrimental) and unnecessary.

      The common threads between business people and software developers to ensure success are good communication skill and patience. Without both of those, you may as well not even try.

  13. Revolutionary notion! by BenTels0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What a revolutionary point of view/complaint this article gives! In the sense that "revolutionary" means that history goes through a loop and comes back to where it was before...

    It is interesting to see though, how every so many years the same ideas pop up in new guises. Edger Dijkstra for instance said more or less the same thing about Software Engineering and its mantra of process phases and planned testing. And the same argument can (and has) been brought against Kent Beck's Extreme Programming methodology.

    Oh well, just goes to show you: the only lesson ever learned from history is that nobody ever learns from history.

  14. Good Quality Cuts down or out Testing by millahtime · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you have good quality you can cut down or completely out testing. Think of it like a math equation. Y = f(x). Y is the output and f(x) is the input. If you control the inputs with no variation then the output will always be the same so no need to test it. Honda has done this with engines. They save money because they don't test every engine. Yet, all their engines always work.

  15. Money Rules it All by millahtime · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A way to look at it is, there is a lump sum for a project. The amount of money (time is money) to produce a product. This amount is made up of base price for product plus rework (which is cost of poor quality). If you can minimize the cost of the rework you can either/or increase profits, cut costs (including time to get product out), improve the design as it is higher quality.

  16. Capability Maturity Model by Digital_Quartz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    An excellent example of how anecdotal evidence can lead you to incorrect conclusions.

    The SEI was approached by the military a couple decades ago. The military had a problem; when it contracted out software development work, it would sometimes get back what it was looking for, it would sometimes get it on time. Sometimes it was late, sometimes it didn't work, sometimes it did the wrong thing, and sometimes they got nothing at all.

    The SEI went about polling a large number of contractors, trying to see what was common amongst the ones who delivered. They found there was actually a very strong correllation between a number of processes and practices and high-quality under-budget software. The result is the Capability Maturity Model or CMM for short, which divides companies up into 5 "levels".

    The kind of organization you describe is quite definately a "level 1" company, the kind with the highest risk, and the lowest quality. Most companies, even small ones, should strive to follow the practices of at least level 3, as the benefits are quite tangible; no more late projects, and vastly fewer defects.

    I mentioned it in another post, but my dad has a good web site that deals with quality issues (IE only, unfortunately). And, if you're looking to improve the quality of your software, his current contract is going to expire soon.

    1. Re:Capability Maturity Model by mccalli · · Score: 5, Interesting
      the SEI was approached by the military a couple decades ago. The military had a problem; when it contracted out software development work, it would sometimes get back what it was looking for, it would sometimes get it on time...The SEI went about polling a large number of contractors, trying to see what was common amongst the ones who delivered. They found there was actually a very strong correllation between a number of processes and practices and high-quality under-budget software. The result is the Capability Maturity Model or CMM for short, which divides companies up into 5 "levels".

      Yeah, I use it and am in a certified team. It's vastly overrated, and no substitue at all for people who know what they're doing. It might complement people who know what they're doing, but then such people would have come up with their own valid processes anyway, hence your initial correlation.

      And it's hardly helped the US military come in on time and under-budget, now has it?

      ...but my dad has a good web site that deals with quality issues (IE only, unfortunately).

      !

      Cheers,
      Ian

    2. Re:Capability Maturity Model by StormReaver · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I mentioned it in another post, but my dad has a good web site that deals with quality issues (IE only, unfortunately)."

      I'm sure the irony of that statement is not lost on anyone. A site, giving advice on good quality, is itself a quality disaster. You'll understand if I don't take his credentials to heart.

    3. Re:Capability Maturity Model by glew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That sounds very good. In theory.

      Having worked in a CMM 3 company for a couple years, my opinions of the thing are quite different: CMM, and processes in general, are a tool that managers use to offload their work on the engineers.

      We used to spend vast amounts of time peer reviewing all sorts of useless documents, making estimates for project planning, and so on, additionally to the architecture and coding work.

      This didn't do anything at all for quality. Deadlines slipped like always (often more, because of the time lost to irrelevant stuff). Spec documents were just as Ground-Control-To-Major-Tom-like as usual.

      It did, however, give the managers the warm fuzzy feeling that overcomes control freaks everywhere when they're sure they can track, number, file and index everything that goes on around them. Without having to do any actual work. Without even knowing the first thing about the product we were making (without CMM, a prerequisite for anyone attempting to write any sort of project plan).

      One of our line managers admitted all of this quite openly, one of his favourite sayings was "Since we have processes, I can go home at four every day". We didn't. We got to stay till 8.

      In my experience, CMM should be avoided like the plague. It's complete and utter waste of time, and encourages empty hierarchies.

    4. Re:Capability Maturity Model by Bozdune · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let's also not forget that the DoD has had a number of programs over the years that attempt to determine whether such methodologies work, and/or attempt to determine what the best methodology might be. Of course, everyone using such a methodology invariably reports that it works fantastically, either because they want the next deal, or because they want their particular methodology to be King of the Hill.

      I worked for a DoD contractor for a while, so I've seen it from the inside -- and, I'd say that using DoD-funded development projects as a measure of anything is ludicrous. Years after my DoD experience, I remember interviewing for a lead hardware engineer. I needed a guy who could build a Z80-based microcontroller board. I had one tech to give him, that's it. And, I needed the board laid out and working in 4 months. I knew this was possible, because I had worked with plenty of hardware engineers who could do this in their sleep, with one layout and no rework. Remember, this is 4mhz, folks. Crosstalk? What crosstalk? Hell, armed with a book and help from the vendor in the form of boilerplate designs, even I could have taken a stab at it, and the last time I hacked hardware was years ago in a college course.

      Anyway, this guy was from a large defense contractor, R******n. Turns out he was PART OF A TEAM that had built a Z80 CPU board over the last 18 months. His particular responsibility had been the DRAM circuit. According to him there were 20 other hardware engineers on the project. Yup, he said TWENTY. That's right. T-W-E-N-T-Y.

      The $64,000 question is, what the heck was this guy doing for those 18 months? I was stunned. So was he, when he realized what was expected of him in the "real" world. I don't care how MIL-spec'd his board had to be, or how much vibration and radiation testing they had to do, or how many $22,000 toilets they had to flush it down to test it, 18 months and 20 people is ridiculous. Period.

      I found someone else for the position. He built the board, delivered it ahead of schedule, and it worked fine. And while he was doing that, in parallel he designed and built another board for an RF hand-held. I guess he wouldn't have fit in at R******n. Nothing against R******n, though. Largest employer in the state. Love you guys. Keep everyone working.

    5. Re:Capability Maturity Model by Digital_Quartz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is, there are two motives to reach CMM 3;

      a) It looks good to our customers.
      b) It reduces our cost.

      Companies that strive for motive A often will do their best to meet the requirements of CMM to the letter, without actually changing what they do on a day to day basis. "CMM says we need to have a baseline and configuration management for our code, so I want everyone to check their work into this new CVS thing, at least once a month", for example.

      It's easy to "meet the letter" of CMM without at all meeting the intent. At my company, for example, there's a core group who is trying to push "scrum" as a software development methodology, and they make all kinds of bizzare claims that this is somehow consistent with CMM 3, pointing to specific wording within CMM, and making claims that such and such is equivalent to CMM, even if it doesn't quite meet it. Meanwhile, I try to envision a mission critical system like a 767, or a space shuttle, or an ambulance dispatch service produced with scrum, and it makes me afraid to go outdoors.

      Some people are afraid of change.

    6. Re:Capability Maturity Model by natoochtoniket · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The major purpose of the CMM is to generate the maximum possible costs. Military contractors are paid on a cost-plus basis. They make money by finding justifiable ways to generate higher costs. They don't make money by selling finished products that are produced efficiently. Similarly, military officers don't get promoted by finishing projects ahead of schedule and under budget. They get promoted by justifying larger budgets and larger staffs, which then require higher-ranking people to run the larger organization. Both sides benefit by finding ways to justify the maximum possible cost for every project.

      Having said that, many of the ideas that are in the CMM are good ideas. Each item has some justification, and can be helpful to generate better software systems. After all, the cost-plus contracts are based on justified costs, not just every cost that the contractor can dream up. There has to be some plausible justification for every cost item.

      So, for non-military purposes, we can use the CMM model and associated literature. We just have to use them intelligently. We cannot blindly implement every detail, because that will make every project over-budget and late. And, we cannot blindly reject every CMM element just because we think the CMM is bloated and inefficient. We should instead consider which management methods and processes are actually appropriate for the current project at hand. The CMM books provide a good inventory of things that we might want to do. We just have to pick the items that are appropriate for the particular project, in the particular company and business environment.

    7. Re:Capability Maturity Model by Digital_Quartz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is an interesting argument, and it's one I hear a lot here, but let me ask you something;

      What was your improvement in productivity, and how was it measured? What was the reduction in your (delivered defects):(effort expended) ratio? What was the reduction in your (lines of code delivered):(effort) ratio? One or both of these ratios have to go down.

      If you don't have these numbers, you can't really say you've improved productivity, especially with a process like Scrum. Scrum makes it very easy to think you're more productive, because it gives you results every 30 days (in fact, to a lesser degree, every single day with your Scrum meeting). But are you actually more productive? There's a fair rework cost incurred by Scrum, due to the constant introduction of new requirements, which Scrum hides very well.

      I don't have these numbers either, and I'm not sure if anyone has done such a study (although I've encouraged the group here that's pushing Scrum to measure them), so I can't say for sure which process is "better" from this perspective.

      I will agree that Scrum does an excellent job of making developers feel good, which is one of their stated aims, but unfortunately, software exists not to please its developers, but to please its users.

  17. Not sure I agree with all of the article by lottameez · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The writer talks about separating QA from the Development group. In our organization, this was a large part of the problem. First, there was a tendency for the development group to "throw it over the fence" and expect QA to find problems that the engineers couldn't be bothered to look for.

    The QA staff, on the other hand, rarely had engineers of a sufficient caliber that had the insights to search for and find the most insidious problems. Not only that, they (QA) occupied the no-man's land between business users and development, understanding neither area with any clarity.

    --
    Yeah? Well I think you're overrated too.
  18. Even more, QuAlity != QA by dallaylaen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If design is flawed, what should QA do?

    If docs are porly written, and incomplete, how does one decide what's bug an what's feature?

    If the docs depict the program's behavior, not define it, what can QA do? ...And more, see F. Brooks' "Mythical Man-Month" for example, or Alen Holub's "Rope Long Enough to Shoot Your Leg".

    And yes, if everythign is done right from the beginning, the QA people would have enough time to do something except testing.

    Of course, only third of the two ways to write bugless programs works...

    --
    WYSIWIG, but what you see might not be what you need
    1. Re:Even more, QuAlity != QA by CaptKilljoy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If design is flawed, what should QA do?

      QA prevents that from happening in the first place

      If docs are porly written, and incomplete, how does one decide what's bug an what's feature?

      QA prevents that from happening in the first place

      If the docs depict the program's behavior, not define it, what can QA do?

      QA prevents that from happening in the first place

      And yes, if everythign is done right from the beginning, the QA people would have enough time to do something except testing.

      Sounds like your company needs to develop a real QA process.

  19. Neither necessary nor sufficient by Presence1 · · Score: 3, Informative

    In fact, I've seen "Knowledgeable_Staff_On_Good_Salary + No_Deadlines" produce the worst kind of quality possible -- no working product at all.

    I will agree that ignorant staff will degrade or kill quality, poor pay doesn't help, but tight deadlines can cut either way.

    The real key to quality products of any type is:

    1) deciding what you want to build, and deciding exactly (i.e., good specs);

    2) deciding how you want to build it, and deciding exactly (i.e., good architecture);

    3) ensuring that these two elements are matched to the capabilities of your team and budget (e.g., don't try to cram all the R3 featuers into R1); and

    4) to create feeedback loops throughout the process to check that you are doing what you think you are doing (e.g., peer code review, pair programming, data acquisition and recording in manufacturing processes). Testing should be merely a "double check".

    With these steps, and especially ensuring that the demands are only a bit beyond the capabilities of the team, even a basically competent team on modest pay can produce great things in short times.

    Without adequate planning, deadlines and QA, the most brilliant, high-paid teams with no deadlines will produce crap, if they produce anything at all. As Sun Tsu said: 'every battle is won before it's fought'.

    1. Re:Neither necessary nor sufficient by KontinMonet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1) deciding what you want to build, and deciding exactly (i.e., good specs);

      Too often, I've stumbled across over-specified systems that, as a result, are delivered incredibly late. And then, because of time constraints, the whole project is de-scoped and bodged work-arounds are built so that functionality can be 'added later'.

      At the design stage, politics often slows things down. I prefer the continuous approach: When you have enough design, start coding.

      --
      Did he inhale?
    2. Re:Neither necessary nor sufficient by Sique · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I prefer the continuous approach: When you have enough design, start coding.

      There was an article at Slashdot quite recently (yesterday) which actually argued, that coding is the real design process. All the other processes would be just tools to help clarify and support the thinking process of the programmer/designer, and not every tool works the same for every programmer/designer.

      He even argued that all the new design approaches (rapid prototyping, extreme programming etc.pp.) were just here to allow the starting of the actual coding as early as possible (and to convince the Design Is All Coding Is Supplemental people without actually forcing them to admit, that design is coding in the software world).

      All discussion boils down to the question, what part of software production is actually design, and what is manufacturing. His answer was: the border line between design and manufacturing is defined as the point when the descriptions and documentations are in a state to allow all further development without any creativity, just as a mechanistic process. So he came to the conclusion that this state is reached when the final product (the software) is translated from the high level programming language into object code by purely mechanic/logic instruments as compiler and linker.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
  20. This hurts by steve_l · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can see the problems this creates. Dev teams blame QA for being fussy; QA hate the dev team for releasing such junk.

    We have to embrace test-centric development more. JUnit, CppUnit, PyUnit, they make it easy to write tests. But to convince the developers to write good tests, that is another matter. I often find it is harder to write a decent test for something complex than it is to implement the complex thing, but without that test, how do you know it works?

  21. Oh god yes by Michalson · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Can someone please forward this to the good old folks at Mozilla. The written QA requirements (on Mozilla) are so cursory that whole features have dropped off the map simply because nobody bothered to check to see if they still worked (i.e. in 1.4 multiobject drag and drop stopped working). Might also help the parsing engine, which continues to have kruft from the Netscape days (like how is interpretted as instead of as a single broken tag to be ignored [and you can use any tags you want, the second one can even contain parameters, allowing you to really annoy people by adding extra HTML that only works in Firefox/Mozilla, not IE/Opera]). Though really as Slashdot has reported before, Mozilla could really use a more robust and systematically tested parser just to avoid potential buffer overrun exploits.

    Bottom line: OSS could get way ahead of commercial software simply by doing proper QA and unit testing (not just the UNIX "it seems to work" test, the "are out of range inputs properly detected or does the program just choke and die") on par with what the best commercial developers have been doing. Just because you have to do all this paperwork and repetive checking when working for "The Man", doesn't mean it's an evil thing that should be thrown out. Sometimes the man actually has some good ideas, even if he spends most of his time shouting about how you didn't dot your i s on that last flowchart.

  22. Re:"Buisness" as usual by rdc_uk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    " Imagine a complex program containing many code paths"

    Mmmkay.

    "QA spends a day to code a test suite which exercises every code path"

    erm... "QA spends a day"

    Yeah, right.

    You do realise that a FULL code path test suite will, perforce, be LARGER than the source code it tests?

    When doing QA, I used to start writing the test cases for software when the REQUIREMENTS document arrived, so that they were ready for use during the tail end of coding and for the unit testing. Its a BIG job.

    And you design tests from the reqs, not from the code - how will you trap a completely missing boundary case, if you build tests from the source? Or the design?

    Requirements drive source and test design, separately so that the assumptions in the former cannot pollute the latter.

  23. what is interesting by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Interesting

    in some (many, most?) cases QA becomes the definitive answer to what the requirements actually are. In some cases the requirements are not very precise, so it is up to the developer to translate them into the code and it is up to the QA to decide whether the developers' interpretation is good enough for the purposes of the system. In reality if you have a QA department, the QA defined test-cases become the guide to how the program behaves under various conditions. These test-cases define the system better than the requirements in some (many, most?) cases.

  24. Re:Testing - The Anti Quality Process by Digital_Quartz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    He's an expert on process and software quality, not HTML.

    But, you're right, his site is pretty deplorable. :P He said he wrote it in some Microsoft tool and keeps claiming he's planning on rewriting it. Sadly, my father is very much in the clutches of Microsoft.

  25. Software devel. could learn from Blizzard. by MadcatX · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I find that software Q&A for applications/OS's/etc. for use by the general public is not necessarily the priority it should be due in part to the fact that they can always "patch" something if a bug arrises. But, on some occasions, patches are created after the damage is done. Although I will say that even if QA is a priority, there will always be a few bugs that will slip by the testing, due to the sheer amount of various situations that the software experiences (A plethora of different hardware setups, configurations, etc.)

    However, one company that has stood out in this field is the video game developpers Blizzard Entertainment. Sure, they have a reputation of not being able to adhere to shipping dates, but for good reason: They want to make sure that the product they ship is near perfect. I'm sure we're all willing to wait a bit more if that time is being used to test products.

    --
    - "I reject your reality and substitute it with my own", Adam Savage
  26. There are three variables for each project... by ian13550 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Cost, Time and Quality and you can only have 2 out of the 3.

    For instance, you can have a project done fast and cheap but the quality will be lacking. Or you can have a project done correctly and quickly but it will cost you a fortune!

    QA is part of that "having it done correctly" piece that most companies tend to cut out. Most companies can only grasp the Time and Cost factor and fail at the whole "Quality" component when doing pre-project analysis. I do not have enough fingers to count the projects I've witnessed that have been running behind schedule (which is usually a BS timeframe to begin with) that decide to cut time from the QA process to make the deadline.

    The reasons for "falling behind schedule" and all those other fun things that go into bad project management have been discussed before so I won't even mention it.

  27. Re:Quality != Good by rdc_uk · · Score: 2, Informative

    Do you (personally) understand the actual ISO9001 system?

    A specific example; the standard requires that you have a process in place to ensure that the copies of company documentation in use are up to date and valid.

    The fact that someone at your company wrote in their company standard for that requirement that they would do this by only having one copy (and weren't intelligent enough to make that an ELECTRONIC shared copy) is very far from being a problem of the standard.

    The company could just as easily have pointed to a secretary and stated "Documents are to be taken from XYZ, where the up to date version will be available". Combine this with a procedure for document release that includes "archive old copy, replace in XYZ with new version" and you are done. Make XYZ a network drive which is backed up properly, and you've also filled the document protection and retention requirement.

    ISO9001 is only as hard as you make it for yourself. In some cases, you can fulfill the requirement by stating that you have looked at, and are not addressing, that requirement.

  28. Re:Quality != Good by rdc_uk · · Score: 2, Informative

    External ISO9001 audits ONLY check that you are following your own processes, and that you have addressed the requirements (which may or may not be in a sensible way).

    I think there is a requirement that you review your processes regularly; but having a meeting where the PHB says "we have good processes? Right?" and every drone nods dutifully is fine for that requirement.

    ISO9001 is designed to assure outside entities (customers, investors) that you have taken steps to do things in a way that mitigates against cockups, corruption (rogue projects that do not add value but leech resources) and terminally bad output.

    It is NOT the purpose of the standard to give the company efficient processes (it is assumed that you will begin from something that does what you need, and add quality to it, not bork your processes totally because thats the "quality" way to do it)

    Unfortunately, being an exernally visible marker, ISO9001 is largely treated as a marketting tool by the PHBs of the world.

  29. Quality problems by Z00L00K · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I have found out that what really has happened in large organizations talking about Quality is that they actually tends to see Quality as a documentation question. With that I mean that the Quality people are requiring a completely new set of documents that are stating how the work was done, but not really why. On a frequent basis none of the Quality documentation is actually documenting the state of the product itself, but is yet another workspace that actually is there only to produce documents.

    The quality of the product is not in focus. If you try talk about things like Lint and Purify with persons representing Quality you will get an answer that that isn't about quality at all...

    So the whole Quality business is something that is invented to support itself and not the end customer of the product. In the long run the customer is actually more interested in the quality of the product than any provided documentation that states that this product was created with our Superior Methods and Ultimate Skill. That documentation doesn't help at all if the product crashes twice a day...

    --
    If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  30. Re:"Buisness" as usual by rdc_uk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "From what I've seen of QA, it is testing, just not in the "Testing" phase. It is having well-defined objects, interfaces, input ranges, output ranges, unit tests and so on to make sure that when you assemble everything together, it has few bugs left. Basicly, weeding them out at an earlier point in the process."

    No offense, but you missed out:

    Ensuring that the requirements the SW is built to match are complete / correct in the first place.

    Ensuring that the SW is built in a way that is suitably efficient for the project.

    Ensuring that the SW has at least been thought about in terms of being built for re-use.

    Ensuring that there was at least some thought about "is there something already here that we could re-use or modify?"

    Ensuring that the SW is built in a method that lends itself to maintenance and modification without tearing out of hair.

    Ensuring that some form of profiling or metrication has been performed, in case the project as a whole needs optimisation (being able to look at the metrics for each unit speeds that first "where to optimise" pass SOOOO much)

    Ensuring that throughout all those processes the correct feedback was fedback to the people who actually DID all those things you just ensured...

    ALL of that is part of the QA for software development, very little of it actually involves testing the software does its job right...

  31. Prototype != Specification by radtea · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In that case you have a specification! In the form of your static prototype.

    A prototype and a specification do not contain the same information. A prototype consists of a single concrete instance of the thing a specification describes. It contains more information than the specification in some respects (the concrete design choices the implementor has made to fill in the gaps the specification is silent on) but more importantly it is also missing information that is absolutely required in a specification.

    For example: What are the tolerances on particular processes? What are the scaling and responsiveness requirements? And so on.

    Nothing that does not capture this kind of information is a specification, and so far as I know only a document can capture this kind of information.

    Don't get me wrong: prototypes are useful. But they are not specifications, because they do not contain the all of the information that a specification must contain.

    --Tom

    --
    Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  32. OK... I'm tired of hearing this. by Xiver · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Cost, Time and Quality and you can only have 2 out of the 3.

    Every time I hear this I cringe, because it is complete crap. On a small level or to someone who has no quality assurance practices in place, it appears to be true, but for large projects/products quality assurance is inversely proportional to cost and time precisely because it cuts down on the amount of time required to develop and test a product to its specifications. Quality assurance procedures will help ensure that errors are caught early on in the project lifecycle and develop standard procedures for project development which may have an initial hit on timelines, but in the end save time. The really nice thing about good quality assurance procedures is that they generally get easier as people get familiar with them and time goes on.

    For instance, you can have a project done fast and cheap but the quality will be lacking. Or you can have a project done correctly and quickly but it will cost you a fortune!

    I'm assuming that when you say quickly here you are thinking of thowing more manpower at the solution because, as the time to complete a project increases the cost increases and vice versa. Quality does not mean features and flawless software. It means that your client gets what they ask for on budget and it works like specified.

    Cost is directly proportional to time, quality assurace might add some time to the project, but it has been my experience that the time it adds is usually offset during testing and not having to add features that a client expects during / after internal testing.

    --
    10: PRINT "Everything old is new again."
    20: GOTO 10
  33. Sometimes formal QA is needed, sometimes not. by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When I worked in a mainframe group at a major airline writing code for internal use in flight ops, we had a small team of a dozen or so experienced programmer/analysts (perhaps 15 years of experience on average) who each knew their business/application area rather well in addition to being quite competent technically.

    We also tended to work directly with a dedicated set of business analysts who were also quite experienced, being dedicated "end users" from various operational areas, and it was a collaborative effort to design and implement projects large and small.

    After years of working with the same experienced people, the system worked *very* well. We had processes in place to help ensure that proper testing and documentation was done and that no unauthorized production loads were made -- otherwise, we basically trusted people to use their best judgement.

    Since the folks who were writing the code were also supporting the application 24x7 on a rotating basis, they had a vested interest in keeping the system stable.

    I think that demonstrated (at least to me) that sometimes a full-blown separate QA process isn't required. By doing things in a somewhat abbreviated way, however, the group was a lot more agile, and quality fixes could literally be coded and loaded in a matter of hours (in some cases).

    When I worked for Unisys on application development for paying customers, however, we had a much more formalized process. We had dedicated business analysts writing the func specs, programmer/analysts to write code to those specs, and dedicated QA people who designed and helped implement formal test scripts (both manual and automated) before the product was rolled out.

    The size of the group and the nature of the product made that level of QA more important, I think, but it was also implemented knowing that the software development cycle in place was a slow and deliberate process.

    Moral of the story: Maintaining a local system for internal corporate use is sometimes a VERY different process from developing commercial software for external customer use, and the two situations can sometimes differ greatly in approach while still maintaining a very high level of quality.

    I also think it depends quite a bit on the quality of the people you have in place, and also on the level of experience those people have with the product, the technology, and in working with each other. Experienced people can work wonders if you let them.

    --
    Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
    The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
  34. Re:QA by timmi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In reality, Windows rose to dominance because it was an inferior product brought to market at the right time.

    businesses chose to use windows because they wouldn't have to rewrite all their legacy/mainframe/in-house apps, because underneath it all, you still had DOS. and if your app didn't play nice with windows task-switching of DOS apps, you could exit wondows entirely, and have essentially a clean slate for the custom app to use.

  35. OT but Related: Test First Methodology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My contention is that the requirements and design process is more broken than the rest of the software development process. I believe that this is the actual cause of the rise of "Test driven" or Test First" development process currently being peddled as the silver bullet, here what I believe is a more forthright characterization of the methodology:

    Due to the fact that the requirements creation process for software is irreparably broken, we have devised a way to sidestep it.
    By having programmers/developers/software engineers write tests first, we actually are having them create software encoded and automatically testable requirements documents
    - it has less to do with testing and more to do with recording design, requirements and assumptions.

    Without a functioning requirements process, the development process is hindered, but Testing (commonly known as QA) process is really screwed.

  36. Ever considered that by patrixx · · Score: 2, Insightful

    the reason that "testing must take up the slack" could be because of lack of reasonable deadlines/gates in the earlier development stages?

  37. Re:Quality is coordination. by thagrol · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I've been on various QA/Testing (no, they are not the same, but my team performs them both) teams for the better part of three years now.

    Try 15. (In software and in manufacturing)

    The most severe downfalls I've seen are when the marketing teams and development teams do not adequately communicate with the QA team.

    I have to disagree, the most severe downfalls I've seen are when the ship to customer date isn't allowed to slip but the date for development submitting to test is. Test end up having to do a month's work in a week and there is no time to fix bugs. So it shouldn't be a surprise when the product ships with known, unfixed crtitcal bugs and the customer ends up cancelling the entire contract.

    In my experience what you need to produce some sort of "quality" product is a sales team that doesn't over promise, senior management that are aware that you can't just tack on some testing at the end and it'll be alright, clear specs, and enough time to actually do the job.

    Oh, and a test team that are commited to the role, not a bunch of wannabe programmers who see it as something to do for 3 months just to get a foot in the door.

    Good communication helps, as does a good working relationship between teams but neither is entirely essential.

    Having said the above, it's also my belief that the strongest impediment to producing high quality software is the end user license. As long as software producers can disclaim any and all responsibilities, fitness for purpose etc there is no incentive for them to do it right.

  38. You mean: QA = (!Testing); by kokoloko · · Score: 2, Funny

    Right?

  39. My experience with QA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Normally I hate AC, but I have to in this case.

    One of my main Day Jobs up to a few years ago was working in QA for Major Computer and Software Manufacturers.

    The idea of:
    Testing = finding bugs
    QA = determining which features are required, and whether or not they work as intended for the end-user.

    Is fine in theory, but rarely happens in practice. It usually ends up that QA is ignored and conflated into bug testing. And even then, it often doesn't matter.

    Example: I was working on a team that developed an Important Piece of Software That Is Very Popular These Days. We Had No Specification.

    None. After some terrifying meetings with the CEO, we somehow brought it to a 1.0 release. I didn't want to have to go through that little nightmare again, so at the 1.0 post mortem meeting, I asked "So, we built 1.0 without a spec - what exactly are we going to do next? What is the Specification for 2.0?"

    The lead programmer looked right at me and said "The Spec for 2.0 is 1.0."

    We had shipped 1.0 with over 850 bugs, with half a dozen known (if somewhat obscure) crashing bugs, and with several features "turned off" because we couldn't get them to work.

    At that point I knew I had to get the fuck out of there. I wasn't going to spend over 2 hours a day driving just to help this rolling train wreck. I left as we shipped 2.0.

    From there I went to a company That Was Also Extremely Famous (but now defunct) where QA was more of an expensive after thought. they hired a great team, but the engineers were so disjointed that the product kept changing every other month.

    The stress level was so high at that company, of the 120 employees, half a dozen attempted suicide in the 9 months I worked there. At one point, there was such a row in basic engineering philosophy, two of the main programmers got into a fist fight. When the money dried up, we all got laid off.

    We can go on and on about how important QA is, but the fact is, we're in a business that makes products, and when the business is more than a dozen people jammed in a garage or airless office space, the products tend to be driven by marketing droids. Left to their own devices, Engineers will produce complex objects that don't necessarily work or fulfil a worthwhile function, or do it in a way that is elegant and useful. Left to QA, the product never gets out the door, because Software Engineering *ISN'T*. SE is more like knitting or quilt making than an Engineered Science. Bridge Builders use Engineers - they have books full of equations that have been proven over the years and they use these solid tested things in a creative way to solve a problem : how to get from here to there.

    When a bridge fails, or a building collapses, they just look at the evidence and compare it to the known working materials sciences, engineering principles, etc. and figure out how it failed.

    With Software everything is written in a series of codes - at the machine level, we know what they do. But once you get into the meat and potatoes of software development, it all gets very wiggly very quickly. That's why TESTING is needed. And QA should be brought in even before the coding begins - when the UI is being developed, when the notion of the application's purpose and methods are being developed.

    But, as noted above: if QA runs the show: it never ships, as there are always improvements to be made. Always.

    So, you have the maketing droids who have the ear of the business managers who then set arbitrary and insane deadlines. The result? QA can't touch everything, or they conspire with Engineering that some sections are "good enough" and they let it go, so they can focus resources on testing problem areas, in order to meet the absurd deadline.

    The end result is always the same: The public gets buggy software.

    The only question is : How Buggy Is It?

    They flip the crank, they do the late nights, they get the product out. QA and Eng do their littl

  40. Re:As an ASP/SQL developer, how can I QA better? by javaxman · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I'm currently working on a monstrous behemoth of an application and the need exists for some way to automatically test my app out. Can anybody suggest free or trial-based tools/software packages that can help me unit-test my code before I submit it to end users from second-stage testing?

    The tools you are looking for exist, but they're not cheap and they need someone to create test cases for them and run them. I assume it's a web app you're talking about? Really, you need to hire a professional and give them professional tools. There's no good way to test your app cheaply. What you really need is a copy of Mercury Interactive's Astra or Segue Silk and someone to run it for you.

    If you have to do it cheaply and by yourself, good luck and have fun writing those tests. Do a web search and have fun evaluating tools and writing tests. Here is the first hit I got on google. I've never used it but maybe you could look into ieUnit.

    Oh, and my advice is to find a job closer to home. That commute will literally kill you. No, really, I mean it, you'll die.

  41. Re:Proof it's a good thing for a company by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Japanese have been all about quality for many years. Their cars are less expensive yet more reliable. They do things in general at a lower cost, that are more reliable and faster.

    And when they started out after WWII their industries were noted for exactly the opposite: mostly cheap stamped metal toys - the first. "Made in Japan" was a synonym for shoddy. (Not their fault particularly - it was the first profitable thing they could do with what was left of their infrastructure after the war.)

    They embarked on a long-term process of upgrading, with great attention to the things where they were behind. Quality was their first lack, achieving it became one of their very first targets, and the means to achieve and maintain it became core to their industries.

    In the car example they eve[n] build the cars on US soil with these methods, so, it is something we can do and doesn't break ou[r] backs.

    They did it with union workers, too. A friend of mine who was a labor union officer put it this way: "The workers give you what you ask for. If you ask for quantity you get quantity. If you ask for quality you get quality. And if you ask for trouble you get trouble." (Implication being that the Japanese had asked for quality while the US companies had been asking for quantity and trouble. B-) )

    Key to the rise of Japanese industry were two US figures: Demming and McCarthy.

    Demming wrote a book that laid out management techniques for achieving quality, quantity, and labor peace. Most of it worked by having management empower the front-line workers and pay attention to their input: These workers have the direct experience with the company's processes and problems, customers and suppliers, so they're your nerve endings. They are NOT dumb, and there are far more of them than management, so they're more potential sources of good ideas. Management's job is not to come up with all the ideas and push them top-down on the workers, but to enable the workers to get the work done, aid them in implementing those good ideas they generate, and reward and encourage behavior that promotes the company's goals.

    This book was introducted to Japan during the reconstruction, and its message was easily grasped. The people in Japanese industry, from management through line workers, became almost cult followers of Demming. His book circulated widely. They implemented his ideas as their core business practices, with excelent results.

    But the US was in the height of the Red Scare (also known as the McCarthy era.) The black-listers and witch-hunters could destroy vitrually anyone they turned their eye to. And listening to workers sounded too much like the ideology of the communists, socialists, and "sieze the means of production" radical labor unionists.

    Though many of the particular claims McCarthy himself made turned out to be true (though it took the opening of the KGB archives after the fall of the Soviet Union to show it), his hearings and the activities of his followers and wanna-bes created a terrorist-style pressure on executives. Anything that even hinted at Communism or Socialism became taboo. Both Demming's work and any communication from labor toward management (outside formal collective barganing sessions) fell into disfavor among US industry. Quality suffered as a result.

    The turnaround for US industry began when Japan's auto industry achieved, first a price, then also a quality advantage over that of the US, displacing its products in the US market.

    This served as a wakeup call to management, which began an expensive, painful, and lengthly process of examining and repairing its own house. (It was triply painful because it occurred simultaneously with an energy crisis resulting from a mideast oil embargo and civil unrest as the boomers were drafted into the Vietnam engagement.)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  42. Stress-testing tool throws java exceptions by MichaelCrawford · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I'm sorry I don't have a link, but once I saw an ad for a stress testing tool that would cause exceptions to be randomly thrown from within a java program. The objective was to test whether you handled them all, most importantly whether you handled them all gracefully, or if your app would just fall over.

    Basically, anywhere within a java program where an exception could legally be thrown, the tool would cause your program to throw one of the allowed exceptions.

    Sure, java has checked exceptions, and you have to either catch and handle them, or propagate them, but requiring this doesn't guarantee you do it correctly. Also there are some exceptions, like running out of memory, that aren't checked or declared in a throws clause, that could happen just about any time.

    Java being an interpreted language makes it possible to do this to a binary, which I don't think would be possible for a C++ executable, but I think some kind of source code preprocessor would allow such testing for C++ programs. Maybe a good open source project for someone with more time on their hands than I.

    --
    Request your free CD of my piano music.
  43. Then you're doing QA wrong. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Insightful

    if QA runs the show: it never ships, as there are always improvements to be made. Always.

    Then you're doing QA wrong.

    One of the big parts of having a spec and a QA process is to know WHEN TO STOP.

    When you get the function of a part right, and the tests have been run and show it's right, you MOVE ON. You only come back to it if the debugging of a later part reveals a hidden bug that the earlier tests missed (or couldn't test without the availability of the later part).

    When you've moved on from the last part you're DONE.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way