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Microsoft Developers Respond To .NET Criticism
bonch writes "Richard Grimes of Dr. Dobbs Journal wrote an article entitled Mr. Grimes' Farewell, in which he discusses what he feels are inherent flaws in .NET, and how he is abandoning his .NET column. Grimes argues that .NET is merely thin wrappers to Win32 calls (Avalon uses message functions that date back to 16-bit Windows), that Microsoft has abandoned confidence in both .NET and sales of Longhorn, and that the framework itself is too large and poorly implemented, most of it ported from past APIs like WFC and VB. Dan Fernandez, Microsoft's Visual C# Project Manager, has responded in his blog. Richard Grimes appears in the comments to defend his criticism, referencing first-hand disassembly of .NET APIs using ildasm. Scott Swigart has also responded to the criticism of Visual Basic .NET. Apparently, Mr. Grimes struck some nerves."
How ironic would it be if Microsoft eventually abandoned .Net and Mono was the only remaining development environment that supported C#?
I'm a big tall mofo.
There are thousands if not millions of people who have built thier understanding of computer systems around Microsoft's operating systems, software products and programming environments. Let that idea settle in deeply for those who see a much larger picture and take it for granted.
This is not only their identity as programmers, but their foundation for career building and therefore their house and car payments, their breakfast and dinner and their hopes for retirement. It's a huge deal to criticise Microsoft for these people. Is it any wonder why it becomes a holy war for so many people? It's no mystery to me at all -- I even have a brother who has fallen into that trap and in order to keep peace in the family, I pretty much keep my "opinions" to myself much of the time.
So while I am glad to see greater use and corporate acceptance of Linux or other alternative operating systems, I kind worry a little for those who aren't allowing themselves to see things beginning to crumble for Microsoft and that if they aren't careful will fall along with them.
recently migrated to .NET. The server admin seems happy but the user experience sucks big time. I never thought I would say something nice about Cold Fusion but the forum certainly was more user friendly running under that.
realkiwi
This myth, .net is merely thin wrappers to Win32 has been very thoroughly debunked by the inimitable Ian Griffiths in his OnDotNet column on Longhorn.
Being anti-Microsoft doesn't automatically make something true.
--- These are not words: wierd, genious, rediculous
Microsoft has abandoned confidence in both .NET and sales of Longhorn
.NET preview right. In the linked article, he states:
.NET when it was in technical preview at the beginning of 2000; at that time it was called COM+2"
That will come as a big surprise to Microsoft.
Hell, Grimes doesn't even get the original name of the
"I started using
In fact, it was being called COM3, and it was renamed NGWS because Windows NT wouldn't let you work with a directory called COM3 (IIRC, you could create the directory, but trying to use it resuled in some kind of conflict in which NT thought you were referring to a serial port).
Fernandez himself says everything else you need to know about Grimes' DDJ bitchfest.
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
All "one language, any platform" - even Java bytecode, via JRuby and JPython. So in a different way, "any language, any platform". Same story with Mono. Remind me again: why does .NET exist?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
From some AC responding to Dan Fernandez's blog and referring to Richard Grimes:
At the bottom you'll find that he listed his email, but rather then use a contact me form, or listing it directly, he ENCODED HIS EMAIL address in Rot 13 encryption!! Do you really want to take advice on "usability" from someone who thinks it's a good idea to encrypt their email address?
I'm not sure I really need to comment further on this.
When moderating, assume I have not yet had my coffee.
I am old enough to remember the original VB columnist at some high-profile magazine (was it Dr Dobb's itself?) throwing the towel on the column because he couldn't stand the bloating of the language by MS... and the C++ Advisor-or-something-the-like columnist (was it Unix Magazine or what?) quitting the column because C++, being designed by committee, required a language lawyer and was only getting worse.
No news here. If you don't care for elegance, you go awok with evolution. ISO SQL, Perl, there are many many examples.
Now if only people would rethink and take the pain of learning a real, elegant language... a functional (Lisp, Scheme, Haskell, ML) or pure OO (Smalltalk, Squeak) or truly relational (Tutorial D, D4) one.
Instead of just trying to keep extending known languages into unknown fields. C is just structure, platform-independent Assembly; how come people want to create custom applications in it or its Java, C++, C#, ObjectiveC? This comes only as an indictment of the alternatives, or worse still of programmers and their managers.
And BASIC, it was only a stepping stone in learning COBOL. How come it is used to deploy anything more than a prototype? Don't get me started with excuses.
It is high time managers and programmers get real and start using languages designed to do what they want. COBOL, Pascal, Smalltalk, Lisp... each in their niche, they are better than C or BASIC and their overextended derivatives.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
Hmmm.. I feel much more 'comfortable' looking at C and Java vs. C#/VB. And while C# is closer to Java, it still has that MS look that I've come to recognize via torturous years, long ago, with VB.
.com boom and bust. He's had some great partys, but also had his ups and downs with the neighborhood meetings. However, in the end, he's got a pretty good amount of support from the community and you can tell he's in it for the long haul.
No, C# is not, IMO, nicer looking than Java.
That said, C can be quite fugly too, but there's just something about it; maybe it's because it's sorta the serrogate programming mother of languages I have become fond of.
Sorta like that not so pretty, overweight, mother that lives down the street and, while a little abrasive sometimes, can usually get anything done that you want her to.
C# is that sketchy lawyer chick that just moved into the brownstone across the street that Mr. Smith used to live in (Mr. Smith was the nicest old guy you ever knew). On the contrary, Ms. C#, even tho she sometimes gives cookies to the neighbors and plays a nice game, has the look in the corner of her eye that just says someting is wrong or fake. Like there's something there you just can't trust.
Meanwhile, Mr. Java a few doors down from Ms. C#, was one of those younger guys that just moved in prior to the
I trust the JCP much more than ECMA. They're two fundamentally different organizations of which, one has a voting body made up of many organizations - including open source projects - and the other has no voting process at all. Getting the ECMA standard slapped on your product says nothing to the owned ideas, methodologies and implementations behind it. The Mono guys like to use this all the time, but just because it's a standard does not mean it's patent free and free of legal entanglements and/or threats.
I was wondering, apart from his comments themselves on the state and future of .Net, what the real consequence of some of Richard Grimes' stature is when he decides to publicly drop his .Net column.
.Net. And that is why, I think, why Microsoft's bloggers are doing overtime on the defensive damage containment sector.
.Net due to his frustration with the framework is what got the bloggers up in arms. Fear, simple fear, I think.
.Net and move to some other framework or platform, or if it is just one frustrated man who will have no influence on future events.
.Net could very really cripple Microsoft's uptake in the enterprise, and the loss of enterprise development interest would leave Microsoft with an Desktop OS, a Server OS and an Office package.
It occurred to me that this is the first public person who is both a respected author in the Microsoft developer world and, possibly more importantly, a columnist at DrDobb's, who is publicly washing his hands with
Dr Dobbs is possibly the most respected software development journal in the English speaking world. Certainly it has dropped somewhat over the years with the advent of the internet and the ease of accessibility to good quality development articles that the internet brings, but it is still probably the most important journal, especially relating to Microsoft products. The fact that a noted author in this journal has decided to wash his hands of
is it really that important? I don't know. I have no idea if this is the beginning trickle of a torrent of developers who will decide to drop
While I would suspect the latter, I think that Microsoft's bloggers reactions means that Microsoft fears the former. And they right to be. A general dissatisfaction with
Think about that.