Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Developers Respond To .NET Criticism
bonch writes "Richard Grimes of Dr. Dobbs Journal wrote an article entitled Mr. Grimes' Farewell, in which he discusses what he feels are inherent flaws in .NET, and how he is abandoning his .NET column. Grimes argues that .NET is merely thin wrappers to Win32 calls (Avalon uses message functions that date back to 16-bit Windows), that Microsoft has abandoned confidence in both .NET and sales of Longhorn, and that the framework itself is too large and poorly implemented, most of it ported from past APIs like WFC and VB. Dan Fernandez, Microsoft's Visual C# Project Manager, has responded in his blog. Richard Grimes appears in the comments to defend his criticism, referencing first-hand disassembly of .NET APIs using ildasm. Scott Swigart has also responded to the criticism of Visual Basic .NET. Apparently, Mr. Grimes struck some nerves."
How ironic would it be if Microsoft eventually abandoned .Net and Mono was the only remaining development environment that supported C#?
I'm a big tall mofo.
How would you feel if someone criticized stuff YOU made in a public forum? This blogging stuff has gone TOO FAR and doesn't respect peoples' feelings.
I hear that now they have this spyware that downloads and installs .Net framework on users' PCs. Now we need a worm that does the same and the thing will soon be widely deployed!
".NET is merely thin wrappers to Win32 calls"
.NET developer and in general, I think it's great - it's a very fast platform to devlop for - and your developments run very fast.
.NET development, and I'm sure .NET 2.0 and future versions will fix many issues that exist with the current version.
Of course it is. That's called functional programming! What did he want them to do? Write the whole thing again from scratch in ASM?
Somewhere further down this page someone's going to write "In other news, Win32 is a thin wrapper for Assembly Language".
I'm a
Sure it has some problems with the fact that some parts are just wrappers. For example the SMTP functionality is really bad and always gives you exactly the same error message no matter what actually went wrong. But we're still very early in
Microsoft has abandoned confidence in both .NET and sales of Longhorn
Great! Does this mean they'll be shipping their own Linux+OpenOffice Distro?
First platform independent framework/runtime, implemented for only one OS.
839*929
The VB devs here prefer, and every VB install is actually VB6. We buy .NET but none of the Devs want it for anything but the license to use VB6.
VB6 is much smaller and has a higher compatability across all the company platforms, plus the windows CE devices we have here in he wearhouse and field techs carry run an older CE version that seems to like the CD kit+VB6 better. (no upgrading them is not an option at $2150.00 each)
Or so they say, I rarely touch the stuff. I find that python does the job faster and better, but try and convince a VB jockey that it really is just as easy without an IDE.
Python + wxPython = killer cross platform Rapid development language.... as soon as you get past the quirks.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
There are thousands if not millions of people who have built thier understanding of computer systems around Microsoft's operating systems, software products and programming environments. Let that idea settle in deeply for those who see a much larger picture and take it for granted.
This is not only their identity as programmers, but their foundation for career building and therefore their house and car payments, their breakfast and dinner and their hopes for retirement. It's a huge deal to criticise Microsoft for these people. Is it any wonder why it becomes a holy war for so many people? It's no mystery to me at all -- I even have a brother who has fallen into that trap and in order to keep peace in the family, I pretty much keep my "opinions" to myself much of the time.
So while I am glad to see greater use and corporate acceptance of Linux or other alternative operating systems, I kind worry a little for those who aren't allowing themselves to see things beginning to crumble for Microsoft and that if they aren't careful will fall along with them.
recently migrated to .NET. The server admin seems happy but the user experience sucks big time. I never thought I would say something nice about Cold Fusion but the forum certainly was more user friendly running under that.
realkiwi
If you stick your head in the sand and only hear good things, this leads to *big* problems later. You can look at some history at IBM and see that the cheerleader mentality cost them a lot. It didn't matter what the truth was, it didn't matter what reality was, it didn't matter if the product worked, it was your job to promote it like it was the best thing since sliced bread, and do it with a smile on your face. You could see a lot of that with PS/2s
Everyone that builds something, designs somethings, etc, should be able to have some basic defense of his actions, designs, procedures. If all you can say is "that's hurtfull", you are in big trouble.
eric
Ah boy, I wouldn't want to hire you. Microsoft sits on a treasure chest, namely 10 years of bugfixed, known-to-be-working code. It contains every little obscure bugged that grandma Uxbuklu in outer Mongolia have ever encountered. And you want them to throw that away? That sounds great! If you're a Linux developer that is.
I would recommend you read what Joel has to say, since he say it so much better than I have time to do.
The one thing Microsoft has been consistently bad at is developing nice clean APIs. They often provided very good tools to help you cope with the sheer ugliness of their APIs but MS never managed to create an API that felt natural to use.
I had high hopes with
Your pizza just the way you ought to have it.
I am a .Mac developer and I can assure you that iDisk is more than a thin wrapper for WebDAV calls! Homepage is the best web development platform I've ever had the pleasure of using.
My opinion is that Avalon, or more specifically, XAML, will mark the death of ASP. The reason is that Avalon is a client-side technology, but the browser is an important part of the distribution model. XAML is so rich that a browser-contained XAML application will look no different to a process-based Avalon application, and coupled with Web Services or Indigo (as the mechanism to access remote code), an XAML application will make an ASP.NET application look paltry and antiquated.
Microsoft's track record with browser-based applications is one security disaster after another. Their existing browser-centric security model is fragile that I can't see a way to fix it without changing the API and breaking every application that uses it.
If Microsoft's web applications come to depend on that model, they'll never be able to extricate themselves from that mess.
This myth, .net is merely thin wrappers to Win32 has been very thoroughly debunked by the inimitable Ian Griffiths in his OnDotNet column on Longhorn.
Being anti-Microsoft doesn't automatically make something true.
--- These are not words: wierd, genious, rediculous
Are you sure? Why most DOS apps still runs in Windows XP? You can use your Word 6.0 in your Windows XP with no problems. I think it makes sense to rewrite parts of your application to take advantage of new features. How can you develop software using an API that doesn't exists? Try to develop a Linux app
From RG's article I take the decision to make Avalon available to other versions of Windows as a lack of confidence in the sales of Longhorn.
So if MS made Avalon not available for other versions of windows we'd moan about requiring to upgade to longhorn and MS wanting to make more sales on the expense of the consumer. When they announce it will be available for older versions of Windows we moan about their lack of confidence in longhorn sales... sheesh......
The following statement is true
The preceding statement is false
Apparently, you also forget the pain of pre-.NET development. I haven't forgotten the insane amount of work it was to build a Web site with tables that let you sort and page data. I haven't forgotten how much work it was to write client-side and server side code to validate form fields.
Wtf? Apparently he has forgoten to use PHP for web development.
"Free software as in beer, copy protection as in racket" - Telsa Gwynne
everyone will read it and post it on Slashdot. This guy is using kernels of truth to act as if those kernels of truth are indisputable evidence of his incorrect conclusions. e.g. "The sky is blue. Blue is the color of water. Therefor if I fly I will drown."
And in proper slashdot tradition, I demonstrate both sayings are wrong.
Microsoft has abandoned confidence in both .NET and sales of Longhorn
.NET preview right. In the linked article, he states:
.NET when it was in technical preview at the beginning of 2000; at that time it was called COM+2"
That will come as a big surprise to Microsoft.
Hell, Grimes doesn't even get the original name of the
"I started using
In fact, it was being called COM3, and it was renamed NGWS because Windows NT wouldn't let you work with a directory called COM3 (IIRC, you could create the directory, but trying to use it resuled in some kind of conflict in which NT thought you were referring to a serial port).
Fernandez himself says everything else you need to know about Grimes' DDJ bitchfest.
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
I feel dirty reading so many MS Developer comments... bleh
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
I buried one of your turd sandwiches in my garden and all of the plants died. So did the pests living on them. And my neighbours' plants. Can I install a Turd Sandwich Service Pack or something?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
All "one language, any platform" - even Java bytecode, via JRuby and JPython. So in a different way, "any language, any platform". Same story with Mono. Remind me again: why does .NET exist?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I think it's valid in the C99 specs, which is the current standard for the C language.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
From some AC responding to Dan Fernandez's blog and referring to Richard Grimes:
At the bottom you'll find that he listed his email, but rather then use a contact me form, or listing it directly, he ENCODED HIS EMAIL address in Rot 13 encryption!! Do you really want to take advice on "usability" from someone who thinks it's a good idea to encrypt their email address?
I'm not sure I really need to comment further on this.
When moderating, assume I have not yet had my coffee.
I am old enough to remember the original VB columnist at some high-profile magazine (was it Dr Dobb's itself?) throwing the towel on the column because he couldn't stand the bloating of the language by MS... and the C++ Advisor-or-something-the-like columnist (was it Unix Magazine or what?) quitting the column because C++, being designed by committee, required a language lawyer and was only getting worse.
No news here. If you don't care for elegance, you go awok with evolution. ISO SQL, Perl, there are many many examples.
Now if only people would rethink and take the pain of learning a real, elegant language... a functional (Lisp, Scheme, Haskell, ML) or pure OO (Smalltalk, Squeak) or truly relational (Tutorial D, D4) one.
Instead of just trying to keep extending known languages into unknown fields. C is just structure, platform-independent Assembly; how come people want to create custom applications in it or its Java, C++, C#, ObjectiveC? This comes only as an indictment of the alternatives, or worse still of programmers and their managers.
And BASIC, it was only a stepping stone in learning COBOL. How come it is used to deploy anything more than a prototype? Don't get me started with excuses.
It is high time managers and programmers get real and start using languages designed to do what they want. COBOL, Pascal, Smalltalk, Lisp... each in their niche, they are better than C or BASIC and their overextended derivatives.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
This notion that platform independence is a value we should all aspire to is an idea pushed by Sun. The idea was kind of attractive 10 years ago when there was no usable X11 toolkit other than Motif (and that was barely usable), Macintosh was in shambles, and it looked like the only way to get any GUI software for UNIX/Linux was to piggy-back onto Windows.
That's not the situation today anymore. Whether you like them or not, UNIX and Linux have two powerful and complete desktop environments and half a dozen excellent toolkits. There is no need anymore to piggy-back on Windows. When people develop for Linux, they should do the best job they can for the Linux environment, not worry about whether it can be ported to other, proprietary platforms. Windows has enough software as it is, and if we ham-string Linux software development with worrying about cross-platform issues, we will always be behind
From DF Blog:
.NET framework from Windows Update and the Microsoft Download center to date. For a simple guy like me, that translates to about 5.5 million downloads a month. Another interesting datapoint is that in 2004, we expect to have about 54 million new PCs shipping with the .NET framework installed/preloaded. We also have over 2.5M developers targeting managed code.
.Net installed because they did a windows update and it was one of the available options? My mom has .Net installed, but I guarantee she is not using it for anything other than keeping her hard drive full.
Soma: We have seen over 70 million downloads of the
It's a small point, but how many users have
Dave
Researched the name? Hah! Have you ever seen how products get named in big companies?
/dev/null
It generally goes something like this:
1) developers work on product, calling it by one (informal) name
2) product gets close to release
3) marketing department sends out email to developers telling them they've come up with a name for the product, implying they'd like feedback
4) developers scream because the "formal" name is meaningless drivel that tells the user nothing
5) marketing department changes the name in a manner that has nothing to do with developer feedback, as all of that email went to
6) repeat 3-4 until marketing department has a name they like
7) release product
Interesting how Microsoft gets all heated up about developing technologies, like .NET, only when threatened by others, like Java, that they can't control. When the threat is no longer hot, because it's beaten like Netscape, or can't be beaten, like Java, Microsoft's intensity in delivering the new tech also subsides. The actual needs of users, trumpeted in the vaporware announcements as imperative, never actually enter into the considerations.
--
make install -not war
Better than another?
C# Ecma, and Java is JCP. One is a community based process and the other a standard effectivley controlled by a single company who manages to get ECMA to rubberstamp the whole thing - so if I were you I'd probably keep the whole "ECMA standard" thing at a low profile so people don't look too close at what is going on there.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
While I can sympathise with Richard Grimes and certaqinly agree with him that .Net is more of a marketing exercise than technological breakthrough (even C# is Microsoft's response to Sun's lawsuit over MS' mangling of Java), I don't think Microsoft can now afford to give it up.
.Net applications on the client side of things reminds me very much of Java's client side predicament, they are in the now unenviable position of having spent so many years (6+) in development and (5+) in marketing and obviously having spent astronomical sums on both that they can not afford to switch to something else.
.Net will be ubiquitous on the various Windows platforms and will be the end user development plaform of choice, much as VB is today, but that it will be the same total sludge of low level hacks that give MFC and VB their well deserved reputation for irritation.
.Net, will ever really kill off server side Java, not unless Sun makes some really stupid moves, although that, I suppose, is well within the realm of possibility.
While they may very well be desperate since almost none of the initial investments have paid out, i.e. the lack of notable
They seem more likely, as is shown by their decisions to port Avalon and Indigo to XP, to try and hack it to work on all platforms so that at least the development effort will not have been wasted. The end effect will probably be that
I also serioiusly doubt that
I aslo agree totally, that MS is very quick to jump and get all defensive whenever somebody of note crticises them or their products. Admitting failure or misdeeds is not one of MS' strengths.
Hmmm.. I feel much more 'comfortable' looking at C and Java vs. C#/VB. And while C# is closer to Java, it still has that MS look that I've come to recognize via torturous years, long ago, with VB.
.com boom and bust. He's had some great partys, but also had his ups and downs with the neighborhood meetings. However, in the end, he's got a pretty good amount of support from the community and you can tell he's in it for the long haul.
No, C# is not, IMO, nicer looking than Java.
That said, C can be quite fugly too, but there's just something about it; maybe it's because it's sorta the serrogate programming mother of languages I have become fond of.
Sorta like that not so pretty, overweight, mother that lives down the street and, while a little abrasive sometimes, can usually get anything done that you want her to.
C# is that sketchy lawyer chick that just moved into the brownstone across the street that Mr. Smith used to live in (Mr. Smith was the nicest old guy you ever knew). On the contrary, Ms. C#, even tho she sometimes gives cookies to the neighbors and plays a nice game, has the look in the corner of her eye that just says someting is wrong or fake. Like there's something there you just can't trust.
Meanwhile, Mr. Java a few doors down from Ms. C#, was one of those younger guys that just moved in prior to the
I trust the JCP much more than ECMA. They're two fundamentally different organizations of which, one has a voting body made up of many organizations - including open source projects - and the other has no voting process at all. Getting the ECMA standard slapped on your product says nothing to the owned ideas, methodologies and implementations behind it. The Mono guys like to use this all the time, but just because it's a standard does not mean it's patent free and free of legal entanglements and/or threats.
I was wondering, apart from his comments themselves on the state and future of .Net, what the real consequence of some of Richard Grimes' stature is when he decides to publicly drop his .Net column.
.Net. And that is why, I think, why Microsoft's bloggers are doing overtime on the defensive damage containment sector.
.Net due to his frustration with the framework is what got the bloggers up in arms. Fear, simple fear, I think.
.Net and move to some other framework or platform, or if it is just one frustrated man who will have no influence on future events.
.Net could very really cripple Microsoft's uptake in the enterprise, and the loss of enterprise development interest would leave Microsoft with an Desktop OS, a Server OS and an Office package.
It occurred to me that this is the first public person who is both a respected author in the Microsoft developer world and, possibly more importantly, a columnist at DrDobb's, who is publicly washing his hands with
Dr Dobbs is possibly the most respected software development journal in the English speaking world. Certainly it has dropped somewhat over the years with the advent of the internet and the ease of accessibility to good quality development articles that the internet brings, but it is still probably the most important journal, especially relating to Microsoft products. The fact that a noted author in this journal has decided to wash his hands of
is it really that important? I don't know. I have no idea if this is the beginning trickle of a torrent of developers who will decide to drop
While I would suspect the latter, I think that Microsoft's bloggers reactions means that Microsoft fears the former. And they right to be. A general dissatisfaction with
Think about that.