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Best Degree to Pair w/ a B.Sc. in Computer Science?
VeryCleverHandle asks: "I have held a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science for about two years now, and I want to further my education, and increase my marketability. I am wondering what kind of degree makes a good pair for my existing one. At first, I thought of a Master's, but in my searches for a job, I've rarely (read: never) seen a Masters degree required. I am also researching what kind of degrees others, who have obtained their Bachelor's, received to help complement their education. So I ask you, Slashdot: Which degree(s) do YOU think will go well with a Computer Science Bachelors?"
I would have to say the Biochemistry is your best bet. That whole area of research is becoming dependent of computer technology. Datamining is a large part of genetic research along with molecular modeling (proteins) and distributed computer systems. Also, take a look at SGI (www.sgi.com) and see what they are doing. Their core business is focusing on areas where computers and science converge.
An exploration of mixology, spirits and bartending.
Not stricly a degree, but learn a real language (French/German/Japanese) and you can actually get some quite interesting jobs. Worst case scenario, you'd be translating software or giving foreign language tech support, but employers quite like people with language skills for some unknown reason.
Well if programming is what you love and what you want to do for the rest of your life, why not focus on getting a degree in artwork? Sure we can all write hard-core programs and scripts that run from a command line, but what about our less-enlightened users who require a GUI and colorful buttons to do anything with their computer? To those users, appearance is VERY important, maybe even moreso than performance to some people. I wish I had time to focus on developing my art skills right now for personal reasons/projects, but I'm too busy writing esoteric Perl scripts...>_>
Hero of Allacrost, a FOSS RPG for *NIX/*BSD/OS X/Win
And an MBA is also useful if you want to become an enterpreneur.
It's also a good way to establish a network.
IMHO, being a lifelong employee is not the way to go. Learn the ropes and establish your networks in Corporate America, and then be your own boss.
I've seen too many capable people "synergized" out of a job by all the Mergers & Acquisitions happening out there.
A Business degree
I second that.
Not to mention, when you get a business degree, you will be able to more easily understand why management does as they do, and get along better with your managers. Then you're likely to get promoted in-house, in which case your "underlings" will know you as a programmer and you'll likely get respect. You'll also be able to understand them, and make informed decisions. A bridge between management and IT. Just don't try to micromanage.
Of course, that's in-house. Getting a different job would be easier, too.
Another thing is your health. It may not be a good idea for health reasons to program all day long into your sixties. Just a thought.
My advice is to find something you like. You're still young. Take your time and look around and find an area you really really want to pursue and go for it. Don't listen to what others say. If you're happy doing your job, you will excel in it, no matter what the nature of the job is. Only then can you make a difference.
Going for an MBA just for the sake of getting a higher salary is plain stupid, IMHO. Unless you really really want to manage, then don't do it. Else, you will be one among thousands in your shoes. You can't stand out of a crowd unless you believe in and enjoy what you do.
I'm going to go to law school starting in August. You can work in the field of high-tech law, intellectual property, and patents... I personally am more interested in the software business than I am in writing code, so take that with a grain of salt.
And, you can also diversify into numerous other legal specializations if you get bored or need a change of pace.
The average starting salary varies wildly depending on the type of entity you work for and your geographic location. But, it is my suspicion that you could pretty readily get a decent management job at a software company with 1) technical experience; 2) a BS in CS; and 3) a JD.
There's always the option of going into private practice, or you could work for the FBI/CIA/NSA if you have a penchant for government work (and a clean background).
There's lots more to say on the subject of techno-lawyers, so I'm interested to see what else people have to say Re: law school.
"If you think you have things under control, you're not going fast enough." --Mario Andretti
CPA! I had the same issue about a year ago. I went back to school but wanted to make sure I came out of class with something that will always hold its value. I deceided to load up on accounting courses and sit for the CPA exam. The opportunities for a CPA are limitless. A CPA with CS in an audit position are tremendous. Its worth looking into.
You are right about a Master's.
:-)
In all my experience I have yet to meet anybody who feels their Master's degrees helped them in their job.
This includes MBAs, which I find quite surprising. But I have never met an MBA who thinks her or his MBA helped them get and do the job. I do know one person who thinks her MBA helped her find a husband
I have a Master's degree myself. I had a blast getting it. I'd do it again. But for job advancement it is worth less than nothing.
Life is like a web application. Sometime you need cookies just to get by.
Ive been considering persuing a law degree after I finish CS for some time now. I'll probably choose to work assuming I'm able to find a job but I was wondering how other people with CS degrees enjoyed law school and what opportunities it has opened up.
bit trollent
...think about a business degree, but make sure you actually LIKE business and not just the idea of earning more (talk to friends that work in investment banks and the like).
If you haven't had any experience in business you may find that the people who gravitate towards "big business" are *not* like your engineering school buddies, usually. Often people in business have very different outlooks on the world and work than engineers.
Most fields need people who have an advanced understanding of the field and the computer technology to go with it.
I agree. In my experience, though, the role of IT-savvy physicians is to participate at high levels; you don't get to code much.
And it can be kind of frustrating to have an MD and an understanding of the field. For example, it's a pain to do research using most hospital infomation systems. The current paradigm is to manually look up patients and cut and paste results into Excel by hand. In my experience, asking for a SQL or ODBC connection to the database marks you as a bad guy.
That said, those hospitals that do get it really do seem to get it and you get to have a lot of fun.
Tait
I'd say that your second degree should really reflect your interests. If you're looking to do something that you have a passion for, and you don't care about the marketability, just study something that you love. If you're looking for marketability alone, get a business degree. If you're trying to break into a certain field, study the area most closely related to it.
I'm studying for a dual bachelor's in MechE / CS at RPI. Combining these majors was one of the best things I did at RPI. I love working with computers and I love learning about the mechanical world; I didn't choose my majors solely because that's what I wanted to do for a job.
I didn't think a dual degree would be very marketable, but now that I'm looking for a job, I'm finding that not only are the employers from both fields contacting me, but when I talk to them, they love the fact that I'm able to talk as comfortably about program stacks as grar trains.
Just one poor student's opinion.
- "Nobody came out that night, not one was ever seen. But Old Man Stauf is waiting there, crazy sick and mean!"
1) Get a degree in a field that interests you.
2) Don't Get a degree to increase your "marketability", unless it increases your "marketability" in a field that you would want a job in. In which case, see (1).
I mostly agree. I'm a junior at the University of Michigan. I started with pure physics, then added CS because I've always liked programming. Since then, my interest in physics has waned -- I've considered dropping my major several times -- but professors have encouraged me to stick with it, so I have. I've found physics to be more difficult intellectually than CS.
Physics and CS go well together. You can't really be a physicist anymore without having some programming skills. And if you want to do any kind of physical simulation, whether with fluids or rigid bodies or traffic or galaxies, then you'll need expertise in both areas.
About half those with a BS in physics go into industry (as opposed to continuing their education), many to jobs unrelated to physics. If you have a degree in physics, employers see that you know how to solve problems well.
It's paying off for me, as I currently have one internship offer and am following two more tracks for other internships. They're at good companies (though at least one has been called evil here). Everyone I talked to at the career fair a while back remarked about my physics major.
If you can't find another major you like, then just dig in and kick butt with CS. Take a course on object-oriented programming that covers design patterns, and do lots of work on cool projects in your free time.
I'm doing fine writing code with my Mathematics PhD (>$200,000 salary last few years (dropped a bit this year - working on fixing it)). So did Sergey Brin. Most people I know who studied mathematics just forgot it all when they finished their course. Some people (like Brin) have the sense to actually use it to solve difficult problems that non-mathematicians can't solve. Mathematics isn't just for entertainment value, some of it can actually be applied in the real world.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
There's a huge demand for computational/quantitative folks in the biological sciences. Plus, the work you do there is freakin' cool (speaking as a theoretical neurobiologist).
You may find the following article in PLoS Biology interesting:
Mathematics Is Biology's Next Microscope, Only Better; Biology Is Mathematics' Next Physics, Only Better
You sir, have never experienced the joy of using not one, but two international tax treaties, to make income from a foreign assignment by a non-U.S. citizen that would otherwise not be taxable in the U.S. intentionally so taxable (and, *poof*, completely offset by foreign tax credits, ta da!), so the eligible moving expenses associated with the assignment, but paid in the following year, when a U.S. tax resident, are deductable against U.S. income in that following year.
Accounting has the potential for some interesting hacks. When was the last time you got to (figuratively), go "Nyeah, nyeah, nyeah, nyeah, nyeah!" to the IRS, and the CRA (Canada Revenue Agency)?
You could've hired me.
As one who has been an academic and businessman, I think the MBA is overrated, it is essentially a cram course, better tought in a vocational school than a University, though it provides comfortable tenure for many. Also the very best schools have staff that manage to transcend the rather drab syllabus which could be described as the 'Idiots guide to Business'.
You really need to asses and research what you need to know and do not know; so as a CS major I would expect you to be numerate, but you might not know statistics and you do certainly need a basic understanding of statistics, law accounting and pschycology (aka marketing) to work in business.
To do that, you need to figure out what you want to do, then you can define what you need to know.
A last point, you first degree lasts 3-5 tears, a PG degree 4-7; after that it is professional reputation.
On the flip side it may also say, "This guy has no business and people skills". Get a Communications or Business degree. Raw brains are a cheap commodity on the global market.
You can demonstrate communication and people skills when you show up for the interview. A piece of paper saying you have them hardly helps. On the other hand proving that you are adept at abstract and logical thought and a sound grounding in advanced mathematics: Not quite so easy to demonstrate at an interview; you might want a piece of paper for that one.
Really folks, people and communication skills are something you mostly either have or don't. If you aren't much of a people person taking a course in Business isn't going to turn you into one. If you are incapable of actually forming your thoughts into something you can communicate to others - well, maybe you should be taking some remedial English courses.
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
I plan to go on to East Asian Studies after I finish my CS degree. If the jobs are going to China, US companies will need professionals who understand the technology and the region.
-DB-
E-mail is like a prison: a prison with no walls... and no toilet. -Strong Bad
Studies now say that Master of Fine Arts (MFA) is the new MBA since the current opinion is that creativity can't be taught. SO to be hip and trendy get an MFA!
Stop intellectual property from infringing on me
Where i work our dream softie is someone with a ComSci and an ElecEng degree, though we do more embeded software. I recon ComSci and pure maths would be a good one for high brow software ;) or an ComSci and MBA for business systems.
No, the USPTO allows CS people to sit for the Patent Bar now. It is a Category A degree now. Of course, previously you could petition your way in under Category B.
I certainly wouldn't waste my time in law school unless I could sit for the USPTO exam (or your land's equivalent).
This is the F'ing toughest exam I have ever taken. Makes the state bar look like a cake walk. Also no law school classes help you with this. Not even the Patent Law class. I suggest (and YMMV) you take the exam after you clerk and have some experience with the procedures of the PTO.
Typical question:
Using the non-searchable PDF of the Manual of Patent Examination Procedure (a Yellow Pages telephone book sized document). Below are 5 sentences from the MPEP. We have added the word "not" to four of these sentences. Which sentence did we not alter?
Also, while it doesn't matter for CS & EEs, if you are going into the BioMed area, many inventors don't want to talk to you unless you have a PhD or Med degree.
You can generally teach people to become acceptable coders. You generally can't teach people communication skills.
A project team with a dozen acceptable coders who can communicate well will outperform a project with a dozen brilliant coders who can't communicate and can't work in teams.
Your sarcastic comment doesn't really make sense. Of course managers don't do stuff. They want YOU to do it. If you go in and prove you can do stuff, that's less stuff for them to do and more money for them to make. If you go in and tell them how great you are at bean counting and holding meetings, that's more of their time wasted and less money for them. Not to mention you'll be competition for their job.
Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
HCI.
MBA. You've learned how. Now learn why.
Those three letters are probably a very good idea. However, I would like to suggest that you might want to take it even further.
There is a bad academic proverb that a generalist is somebody who knows nothing about lots of things. Well, I would instead say that a generalist is somebody who is really good at two things or more. There aren't that many of "my" generalists around, but those who are make loads of money and get really fun jobs.
I worked as a software developer for something like 4½-5 years without any education. Taking my own advice, I figured that I should get some kind of degree for something completely different. So I applied for a program for a masters degree in Industrial Engineering and Management (the universities in Sweden have a different approach to the education than you do in the U.S.; in short you study directly towards a masters in engineering).
But then I thought, "now I know the technology, the management and the engineering, but something is missing". So I also started going for a paralell bachelors in Political Science which will hopefully give me the two last pieces of the jigzaw puzzle: society and information.
This kind of education will also cover most of the power bases in our society: Economics, Technology, Politics. Or atleast I hope so.
Actually, while experience is very valuable, I'd rather not hire a programmer that has no college education. Although it is possible to learn everything CS degrees teach without attending actual school, very few people do that. It's just more efficient to learn that as part of a degree -- although you have to learn quite a bit more than what you will eventually need, you never know which parts are things you do NOT need. Without knowing at least something about compiler theory, relational model, discrete maths, data structure basics, algorithms etc., you aren't much of a software developer; no matter how much experience you have doing more trivial programming.
At least in CS it's simple: like they say, simple problems were all solved in 60s (if not 50s). If you do not learn what the great minds learnt/invented/solved (but rather go and solve them by trial and error... or worse, never learn them!), you are just colossaly wasting your time. Either you are ignorant of useful techniques, or you have used awfully lots of time reinventing the wheel.
However, after learning enough (B.Sc, or maybe M.Sc... depends on kinds of things you are working on), I certainly agree one has to go out and use the knowledge. Going for higher degrees without intervening real-world experience is as silly as ignoring 'formal' CS theory altogether.
See, that all sounds good.
But the fact is, once you get into the market, your stupid piece of paper isn't worth shit. It puts you one up on the guy who has neither experience nor education, and that's not enough.
I've got a rinky-dink piece of paper from a school that no longer exists. Took me 8 months to get, wasn't worth shit, wasted a lot of money, haven't used anything that I learned in there since I got out. But not knowing any better, I got it. When I went and got my first job in IT, they didn't even give a shit about my school; nothing I had learned there was relevant. I showed them I was confident, ambitious and willing to learn, and off I went.
Fast forward 5 years. I'm not yet 30, a consultant, make more than my father, do lead development work for fortune 500 companies, and have regularly had to teach ignoramuses with CS degrees how to do their jobs. I have no degree, but I've got a very large bookshelf full of worn texts I've read back to front a dozen times and numerous large, successful projects under my belt. Know where the majority of the people I know with CS degrees work? They're telemarketers for HP.
So you can talk about how "silly" ignoring "formal" CS theory is. Doesn't phase me. Why? Because I've made my career proving you wrong, and I'm not even near my peak.
I'll take my page out of the books of Job and Woz, thanks.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
I'd say I really disagree with this.
As someone who does a lot of hiring (my department went from 35 to 70 people in the last year), and who has a very good view of what allows people to succeed, I think grad school is a very good indicator of job performance.
But it's not the tech degree I'm looking to see. I want to see a grad degree in a field that demands people to think in a variety of ways. BSc. in Comp Sci is a dime a dozen in any major city.
Pair that with a MA in philosophy, theology, history, linguistics, sociology . . . anything that is vastly different from the comp. sci. degree.
Why?
Because those people are going to have a broad range of problem solving skills and are going to be able to understand when technical issues should be subordinated to other considerations. They'll also, after a few years, be the guys that I'll really listen too when they knock on my door to say that the suits are going to really screw the pooch if we don't push the techniical issue on this one.
That doesn't mean that you should just pick an advanced degree and go for it if you have no passion for the field. But if you have something that interests you, go for it.
Why not just get a law degree, and if you don't get completely corrupted by the whole lawyer indoctrination thing, join the EFF and make a difference.
Want more money?
Work for a law firm helping them understand the implications of the new and interesting laws that are being developed and implimented daily with regard to technology, IT, and net-rights, and then use them to exploit the people for profit of the companies that paid through the nose for said legislation.
OR, if you have a convincing smile and a good speaking voice you could become a politician and help dismantle some of the totally fucked up laws we have that are constraining business and technological progress in our wonderful country.
OR, if you want even more money:
And you have a soul as black as the void between stars I am sure that the business interests that are helped, nay DEPENDENT, on fucked up legislation would be happy to offer you seven or eight figures to help pass their next big monopoly inducing law. (insert step 3 here)
When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
Maybe you can do what someone with a CS degree is supposed to be able to do, but education isn't just about learning marketable skills. I'm just about done with a Masters in Computer Science, and I can certainly tell you that getting the degree was well worth my time. I really feel like I have a much broader understanding of Computer Science now, and that is worth something to me. Maybe it won't make me more marketable (I think it will), but money isn't everything. I love the subject, and I love learning about it.
The point is, surely, that a piece of paper is no substitute for skill, talent and passion for the subject matter.
I've got a degree in Physics, and I can hold my own against anyone with a CS degree except when it comes to calculating Big O notation for algorithms. I can do it informally, and back-of-the-envelope it, but I can't formally calculate the speed of an algorithm. I do, however, know what makes a fast algorithm, what makes a slow one, and know to pick the appropriate one for the task at hand.
Coming soon - pyrogyra
To the original question: don't get a MBA...in another year, MBAs will be a dime a dozen, like MCSEs.
See, I'm starting to wonder about that statement.
I've worked at a computer build / network design / installation / repair shop now for 8 months. We're a midsized "small company" (~25 employees). We do enterprise level work, we're a microsoft certified partner, intel channel partner, GSA-scheduled, yada yada yada. All of our instore techs have to be A+, and onsite techs have to be MCP. And yet, no one in our store has an MCSE. My boss is only one test away, and we have another tech who is two tests away.
I know a lot of people in the area that do the things that an MCSE is supposed to signify knowledge of, and none of them have an MCSE. I also see lots of jobs with Defense contractors and the Gub'ment where an MSCE is the difference between $45,000/yr and $70,000/yr.
The only person I personally know with an MCSE is my father in law, who works for Unisys.
MCSE requires knowledge of the operating systems and prep to pass the tests, of which there are 7 required (at $125 a pop, not counting study materials). You have to take 4 networking design/implementation tests, a client OS test, a specific test dealing with designing active directory or security, and an elective test.
Just pointing out that, while bashing microsoft is as cool as ever, the MCSE cert is 1.) not easy, and 2.) still valuable.
Do you have an MCSE? I'd imagine that a good number of people on slashdot do have one. If not, could you pass 70-294 ("Planning, Implementing, and Maintaining a Microsoft Windows Server 2003 Active Directory Infrastructure")?
~Will
sig?
If you want to be a game developer, then perhaps a short-course in graphic design or a degree in cinematography or physics.
If you want to write buisness software, perhaps a degree in buisness or finance.
Do you want to write embedded software? A degree in Computer or Electrical engineering.
Do you want to write aircraft avionics software? Then a degree in aeronautical engineering.
I work with programmers every day... and they are excellent programmers... the problem is that they have no idea *how* the software they are writing will be used by the end user. Thus they spend many development interations creating what they *think* the user wants, only to have to go back and re-write significant sections of code. Since most of the bugs are introduced at the requirements analysis level (early), you can save your company a mint by really understanding how the software will be used... and that will make you a rare comodity. Good luck!
"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
I agree that there are some important things learned in school. However, when It comes to hireing a programmer I rather get someone with 5 years work experience and no education then some kid fresh out of university. There is more things a person learns from experience then from going to university. Although, univeristy can be a fun party, it is nothing compared to a real world few projects under your belt.
I just recently hired a compsci PHD, don't get me wrong he's a really smart man, but it sure does take him long to solve threading issues. not to mention he's the lowest paid programmer on the team.
Respectivly, there is a programmer on my team that is self taught and has 4 years experience in the industry. He has build hundred's of multi threaded applications and can spot a race condition in seconds.
If you do not learn what the great minds learnt/invented/solved
You don't to go to school to learn what has been solved in the past you just need to order a book.
oh yeah, Knowing how to read helps too.
In Finland, B.Sc is nothing, you have to be atleast M.Sc. to be anything. Bachlelor is not even considered a degree here. My chinese wife is M.Sc in computer science and also masters degree in business with excellent grades.
Still it war very hard to get a job in finland, and have to worry about layoffs every single day. Her first jobs in finland were to be a waitress in bar and dishwasher. It doesn't matter if you're Ph.D here, if employer finds out you're foreigner most of them don't want you even to interview. And IT jobs are really under the rock now. So at that education level your income here is about $3000 where you pay about 30% income tax (plus everything has %22 VAT label on it). I guess you US ppl laugh at this?
So go for it. B.Sc is nothing, you're nobody with millions of other bachelor nobodys in global market.
Remember, in China there comes nearly 5 million post-graduate students every year. They are competing from your job also in global market. And they ask salary of 2000 rmb($200) in month. Be ready to compete with that.
Big amount of computer jobs will get out of US in frothcoming years. Silicon valley is running on H1B guys from India and China - cause US universities are high level, put their throughput is poor (not enough ppl to meet industry demand and often with too high pricetag). Now when Gov now is cutting the amount of visa's, outsourcing to asia comes even more attractive option.
If you want to be doing IT job in by next 20 years, be also ready to relocate in China or India.
As others have noted: Another degree isn't going to help you if you don't know what you want to do. Get some experience in industry, in retail, in anything but academia. Learn about your people skills; this will lead you to or away from business analysis. Are you a coder with mad skillz, a designer with a user-friendly touch, a communications hacker with mystic diagnostic ability? So, you try a few things and they don't work; just keep trying. A couple of years doing that is better than spending them in class. My 2 cents.
Back, demented Ogrons.