Slashdot Mirror
Apple Developing Two-Button Mouse
An anonymous reader writes "Always the innovator, Apple is rumored to be developing a two-button mouse! Personally, I don't think it will catch on. Two buttons will be way too confusing for your average user." A few users noted a related Slashdot story from awhile back that discusses why Apple has historically avoided the two-button mouse. The article also mentions a revision to the AirPort Base Station with built-in optical audio.
With all the people they're hoping to get that are supposed to be converting windows users because of the IPod, I'm sure a lot of people are confused by going from two buttons to one. I know it sounds crazy, but I tend to get frustrated when I use my friend' s Mac, because one mouse button should be simple, however I am used to two buttons, plus a scrollwheel, and a few extra buttons on a mouse, you rely on what you're comfortable with.
I'm sure this will help a lot of people convert over to Macs.
-Gamma
Y'know what's really funny is that OS-X supports poly-button mice with wheel-scrolling ability, yet Apple don't (as yet) sell such a mouse. This has been good for those 3rd party vendors who produce asthetically-pleasing multi-button mice. Please, no flames about Control-Click, I'm a Mac user, yet respect the right-click.
Stuck down a hole! In the middle of the night! With an owl!
PC or no apple has long supported two button mice which is fine for me (as that's all one would ever want to use...) in fact my mac also has 5 buttons, two of which are hooked into the expose features and one I use in a more traditional (X) oriented fashion...
The issue is really with powerbooks which only support one button on the case trackpad- a major pain - will apple release a two button config with the new PB's as well? I hope so.
As as side note, I use (as do many others) a program called sidetrack, ( http://www.ragingmenace.com/software/sidetrack/ ) which allows you to place regions on the track pad to support up to an additional 4 buttons, and v/h scrolling on the edges of the pad. It works well- but takes a lot of getting used to (to avoid accidentally hitting the buttons) IMHO but it's better than nothing- however howabout a mod for the PB itself to have it on the HW, along with the two button mouse.
I wonder how Job's will keynote this. Not a guy who likes to say 'I was wrong'
Can I force-eject a disk without using a damned paperclip to press the button (there's a fucking button there, let us push it from the outside, dammit!)
I'd say that this (lack of a easy-to-use physical eject) is a good design.
Physically ejectable media is a really bad idea. It means that you can't do intelligent caching and I/O scheduling, because you don't know when the media will suddenly vanish.
Now, granted, Linux *does* do caching and scheduling on floppies, but it also assumes that the user knows what they're doing and will manually unmount before ejecting the floppy. Otherwise, any crying over lost data is your own tough luck.
You may have noticed that Windows floppy I/O performance sucks ass. This is because of the physical eject button. The thing is small enough that the OS could cache the entire disk in memory...but it doesn't know when the thing will vanish.
Putting a physical eject button that's easy to access on floppy drives is a really bad idea. There's a reason that all removable-media drives after the floppy use software eject buttons. The only reason the floppy drive lacked a software eject button back in the day is because it was slightly cheaper to build a drive without an extra motor, where *you* had to provide the ejection force.
I *do* think that Apple is about a decade overdue on the second mouse button, but, hey, I just think it's great that folks are going to have it available now (now if we can *just* convince them to make their laptop trackpads removable modules, so that third parties can make three-button scroll-wheel variants...)
You reminded me of an old apple rumor I saw almost 2 years ago. It sounds insanely uncomfortable to me...but you are not that far off from what might have been:
Patent: Mouse having a rotary dial
Mac Observer article with images
Fear trumps hope and ignorance trumps both
Anyone who has used either a touchscreen or laptop trackpad would probably agree that UIs should be designed to work with a single mouse button.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
You gain a lot by adding a second button. You gain contextual menus. By adding a 3rd button, you only gain half-assed alternative click actions in maybe 2/3rds of the applications out there. A scroll wheel would be neat, though to be perfectly honest I'd much rather have a scroll trackball. Of course, my mouse has 6 buttons and I want more, but I use a computer for a living.
Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity. For most users, 2 buttons would be enough, and the design is simple enough to be non-intimidating. For the rest, they can use a regular mouse plugged into their macs.
Though here's hoping Apple ultimately wows us with something truly neat, like pressing down on the entire mouse engaging a grab-'n-pull functionality or something.
The ______ Agenda
It's the mechanical eject button that is the insane design decision.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I told her that the newest wheel mice have tilting wheels. When she understood it makes horizontal scrolling easier, her face lit up and she said "Ooooh...that sounds wonderful! Tell my grandson Mother's day is coming!"
I agree; i use a 2-button mouse on my desktop, but I hate dual button-trackpads. It's easier to use a modifier key than to reach for that other button. The nice thing about Apple's one-button mouse standard is that it inhibits over-reliance on the other buttons.
The one thing I miss on a pad is a scroll wheel. "Sidetrack" type solutions are not satisfactory, because I don't want to have to pay attention to where my thumb is on the pad--pads are designed for relative, not absolute motion. Apple's two-finger gesture scrolling seems like a better solution.
Heh. If I got an email from a prospective beau which said helo how R u im sitin heer thinkin of u lololol xxxxx bob, I would dump his ass, no matter how hot he was. That's kind of like meeting someone online and then discovering that he has halitosis, except in reverse.
Mind you, if someone was that incoherent, I would probably have noticed it before giving him my email address. The drool is a dead give-away.
I've been wondering, though, as I've read this thread, will the second mouse button be used to bring up context menus?
I mean, is Apple simply giving in to the pressure, or are they doing something else? Honestly, as an OSX user, I don't find the context menus in OSX that useful. Giving quick access to context menus... I can to without it. If you give me a three button mouse on OSX, at least one (maybe two) are going to be for Expose functions. If I use a button for anything else, it'll be for opening pages in new tabs while browsing the web.
I fail to see why one can't have a zero button mouse that simply executes the appropriate action after a predefined delay. After all, many of us have happily lived with X windows auto focus to foreground for years with no obvious detriment.
Exactly. No less. But definitely not more.
That is an argument I'm getting tired off... It is a totally unsubstantiated claim supported solely by the mistaken belief that old people are all stupid/slow/whatever. And yes, I know you've all seen your grandmother struggle with a mouse, since that's about the only piece of evidence that is ever brought forward but I suggest that maybe you simply haven't explained stuff properly?
What's that you say? With a one-button mouse, there's no need for explanations? Sure thing mate, Control-Click, Apple-Click, Shift-Apple-Z-F4-DEL-Click and their little cousins all need no explanations whatsoever and are much easier to remember than which button is on the right.
And, without being sarcastic, the number of old people that are just learning to use a computer is declining rapidly. Computers have been around a while, you know...
So regardless of its validity, this argument belongs into the box of used-up-arguments that are about 20 years out of date, together with the "But Apples already had graphical interfaces when people where still TYPING (shock!!) in DOS (black and white nasty thing, don't go near it)" argument.
Yes.
That was 20 years ago. Here's a voucher for a free reality check.
But anyway... by the same argument a scrollwheel should not be standard, because it can confuse people (not only does it click, it also TURNS!! In 2 different directions!!!) and anyway it wouldn't fit into the design philosophy.
Ah well... I'll stick to hardware which is designed with usability in mind rather than looks, but cheers anyway.
As I mentioned in another post, Microsoft ripped off Apple (again) by mapping all the standard Mac Cmd keyboard shortcuts to Ctrl, back before the Windows key existed, and then by pushing the Windows key when the utility of an extra "symbol" key became apparent. So the keyboard shortcuts that Windows users think of as Ctrl options, Mac users think of as Cmd options, and always have; why should Apple change this to conform to Microsoft's paradigm?
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
I've been wishing for years that Apple would design a trackpad button that looks like one button, but can actually be pressed on either side for a left and right click.
The default software configuration would be for both sides to just be the same single button. Users would never have to even know there was a second. But a Power User, not intimidated even by such an arcane thing as this, could enable the second button.
I hate Logitech. Have you noticed how they've removed the Insert (Ins) key from all the layouts lately? Makes it a pain to use in console (the standard shortcut for pasting is alt+ins).
I recently bought an OEM keyboard from them, and noticed a defect on the product: 2 keys are wrongly labeled. Spotting a QA prob, I kindly informed them (thru their support site) and they kindly told me they'll have a look and contact me soon and offer me a replacement. Two months later, seeing nothing happening, I recontacted them and was basically told that they has aknowledged the problem and that I was SOL because it's an OEM product and they don't support them... FFS, they got keys with the wrong label and tell me it's not of their resort? WTF??
Note that their HQs aren't far from me (in Switzerland)... How's that for treating your home customers who, basically, help you make a better product? Fuck'em I say!
Other than that, I quite like my MX500 mouse... But their keyboards are crap!
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
What the /. crowd seems to miss is that the mac is made for simplicity for the average joe who never used a computer.
That doesn't explain why Apple's $3000 multiprocessor workstations come with a 1 button mouse.
A better theory is that Apple has many long-time Mac-Only users, who despite their years of computer experiece, have only experience with single button mice. Apple doesn't want their best and most loyal customers feeling stupid becasue they don't know what button to push.
Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
Apple, usually called "Cmd", short for "command", by longtime users (that's what the four-leaf clover is, I don't know why)
Not for nothing, but "longtime" Apple users actually would know this better as the Apple key. That's what it was officially called in the Apple II days (there were two separate keys back then; one an outline of an apple called "Open-Apple", one a filled-in apple called "Closed-Apple"), and even the early Mac days. Old-school Apple guys still use the term "Apple key", unless they're talking to people they know are relative n00bs.
I switched to PC after the Apple II and for the longest time I had no friggin' idea what modern Mac guys were talking about whenever they'd tell me to press the "command" key on a Mac. I'd try to do something at work and they'd say "oh, just press command-control-comma" and I'd be like "huh? Command Control? Goddamn kids today..." Then I'd put in my dentures and tell those little whippersnappers to get the hell off my lawn.
Just goes to show, though, that Apple's keyboard layouts and one-button mice are no less confusing than what's used in the x86 world. There's nothing any more intuitive about either approach (though I do despise the Windows key - I still use an IBM Model M at home, which helps me avoid it).
The original Apple Macintosh interface had a strict subject-verb grammar. You selected something (the subject), and then went to a menu item to indicate what to do with it. This is limiting, but very easy to learn. Verb-subject interfaces are also possible; those are the ones where you go into a "mode", and the next thing you click on is operated upon in that mode. Today, verb-subject interfaces are usually associated with toolbars.
Most of the "shift-click" stuff is an attempt to express verb-subject grammar. Badly. It's usually better to stick with subject-verb. Select, then indicate what you want done. Indicating what you want done can be a keypress, or a right-click floating menu.
When you click and drag a removable drive or network share's icon anywhere on the screen OS X changes the trash can icon to an eject symbol.
Dammit, you've convinced me.
When this was first explained to me, I thought it meant that the when you dragged a drive/share icon over the trashcan, the trashcan icon would transmogrify into an eject symbol. This would be daft.
But if I understand you correctly, as soon as you click and hold on a drive or a share, the trashcan disappears (because deleting a drive is impossible) and is replaced with an eject symbol.
This suddenly makes sense to me. I suppose it would make even more sense if the trashcan were to quickly swoosh offscreen, and the eject icon were to swoosh on to replace it. In other words, the object is not changing its behaviour and appearance: a different object is positioned where the old one was.
Are there other areas where Aqua rearranges the desktop depending on context? I can imagine, for example, if you start to drag a file, some area could empty itself of icons that wouldn't accept that drop, and populate itself with icons appropriate to the format of the file being dragged.
I need to try out OSX, just so I can be more informed, but the cost! the cost!
Methinks Apple needs to make their Pro mouse with a Synaptics touchpad covering the entire top for scrolling. Just drag your finger down anywhere on the mouse and you scroll. It would be better than a scroll wheel because it could be multidirectional and Apple could keep their smooth the-whole-mouse-is-the-button design without an ugly wheel sticking out of it.
As a partner in a computer training company I taught more than 10,000 (probably closer to 12,000) people how to use Windows and Macs.
As for the quote from the tech support person who claimed that having someone use the right mouse button caused the person to evermore ask "right or left" when asked to click: That's ridiculous. You just say, "If I, or someone else, or a book or manual instructs you to 'click' on something without telling you which button, you use the left button." You explain that the left button is the "default" button and then go into a brief explanation of what "default" means.
Here's how to explain "default."
The "default" is what's expected in the absence of any other instructions. The default hamburger in diners and other traditional restaurants is usually just meat between two buns (with perhaps some garnishes on the side). At McDonald's and other fast food chains the default includes ketchup, pickles, onions and sometimes more.
Once you understand the default configuration of burgers at the place you eat, you know what to expect.
Insert witty sig here.
After switching to OS X a few months ago, I've discovered that I no longer miss the right mouse button!
One excellent reason is the terminal
Another is the fact that control click, command click and option click all do the same things in pretty much every program (I can't say what exactly, it's that intuitive)
All I know is that when I want a new tab in firefox instead of a new window, I always make the right kind of click
nevertheless, I like multibutton mice, and now that I see this discussion on slashdot, I'm going to go get me a USB wireless mouse with a scroll wheel. I've forgotten how nice those were...
shooting is not too good for my enemies
THANK YOU !
This is my experience as well. My home iMac mouse died ( crimped a cable ) and I ran with a spare three-button mouse for a while- not a MS mouse, but a very vanilla, small, fairly standard one. It totally pissed off my then-two-year-old son. And yes, he at completely mastered use of the mouse before he turned two- he could hit the exact square he wanted on a color chooser panel with squares smaller than 1/8". By age two. But it turns out he would have found learning to use the computer much more difficult with the three-button scroll wheel mouse so popular among power users.
I suspect most folks who don't like 'no'-button mouse are just used to what they're used to- it's actually a great design, fits well in a wide range of hand sizes, tracks movement very precisely, has and adjustable click response, and is blindingly easy to use.
The three-button scrollwheel mouse is great for power users, but have you ever watched a novice to average computer user work? They never use those extra features. A small percentage of normal users eventually figure out when they can use the scroll wheel, which, be honest, is not always obvious, but even then they frequently won't use it when they could. The right-click? Unless your application ( or OS ) absolutely requires that you use it, it's not used. I'm not saying you don't use it, and maybe you find it productivity-enhancing, but you know what's more productivity-enhancing? Learning ( and having ) keyboard shortcuts so you don't have to take your hands off the keyboard.
I can not believe the attitude people have about mice- a multi-button mouse is not the ideal choice for everyone, probably not even for the majority of computer users. Apple for a long time has targeted the more casual user, and for them I think the single-button mouse makes a lot of sense.
Of course, with all things, I prefer companies to offer their customers options, and I hope you'll be able to order whichever type of mouse you want from Apple in the future. Of course, there's always the possiblity that they'll do what they've done with the Mac mini, and stop shipping you all these standard parts with every machine anyway, under the assumption that you either already have them or will want to order exactly the ones you want ( based on what some companies are selling I'm still unconvinced that's a good assumption ). I personally use a trackpad with extra buttons and a scrolling area ( on a contour keyboard ) at work... but at home, I've yet to find the one-button mouse a burden. It's far from the big deal people seem to want to make it.
And she hasn't quite got the point.
She is not a stupid woman either. Techno-babble just doesn't interest her.
There are power users (for whom three buttons and a scroll wheel aren't enough) and there are the others who, like my wife, are a bit mystified by the whole thing.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
The actual delay should be tunable (for me a holding the mouse down and still a fraction of a second longer would suffice). The idea of a context menu is that you're doing something non-standard with the object that requires extra attention, otherwise you would have clicked or double-clicked for the default behaviour. If you are constantly using contextual menus, perhaps the UI needs reworking? The bottom line is not how many buttons are on the mouse (the apple mouse is one, big button now), but effective UI design. I would *love* to see a mouse with a twiddler on it.
Using a control modifier would require using two hands, which I would think be more awkward (Apple does use a control/command key modifier, but for less-used options like opening a new window while closing the parent).
As for the wheel -- I love my mouse wheel, but that's not necessarily the best thing for all users. The wheel is especially handy when the UI is set for focus-follows-mouse, but that is not the default behavior in MacOS (as far as I recall).
Even though I (and most geeks) would not use it, the one-button mouse shipping standard on every Mac is a VERY good thing. Reason: It *forces* application developers to design a decent UI that isn't reliant on endless right-click menu commands. I think this is very important. I hope Apple keeps the one-button mouse forever. Anything that forces good UI decisions is a win to me.
You could probably narrow down the list of people who know about these sorts of things. Oh, and fire their asses.
Yes, I'm a fanboy. (Why buy Tiger separately, when you can get it and a computer for $500.)
>>What the /. crowd seems to miss is that the mac is made for simplicity for the average joe who never used a computer.
>That doesn't explain why Apple's $3000 multiprocessor workstations come with a 1 button mouse.
It absolutely does. Look at some of their promotional stuff about who's using their computers: it's people who are good at what they do, but not experienced computer geeks. Doctors, lawyers, photographers, musicians, small business owners. People who don't care about computers -- people who care about getting their stuff done.
Apple is all about making difficult things simple. Look at video editing before Final Cut, for example. Just because you want to do something that requires lots of gigahertz, doesn't mean you need to be a l33t computer geek -- they've gone to great lengths to make even formerly-complex things as simple as possible (like video editing, which is arguably one of the most potentially complex things you can do on a computer today).
Note that they don't even call the PowerMac G5 a "workstation" -- they call it a "personal computer". It's built for people who want to use an Apple, but need a faster system, or a bigger screen (or two). Just because you have 2 CPUs so you can work faster shouldn't (and doesn't) mean you should be presented with an interface that's any more complex.
In fact, if their faster systems came with different mice, they'd be sending the implicit message that "if you want more power, you need a more complex interface". And Apple's goal seems to be to smash that myth to smithereens.
That doesn't explain why Apple's $3000 multiprocessor workstations come with a 1 button mouse.
I want Apple to ship a one button mouse by default on every system I buy. I will not use that mouse. The reason I want a one button mouse is not because I am an idiot, and can't use more buttons. Developers are idiots. If Apple ships a multi-button mouse, developers will immediately begin coding applications to require multiple buttons. This is something that sucks badly on Windows right now. As I mentioned earlier, Notepad on Windows has the second mouse button mapped to a contextual menu that is completely unnecessary. Other programs put controls only in this contextual menu. That means disabled people, voice interfaces, and scripts that use the menu controls usually can't get to those features. That sucks. Right now on the mac, while running a text editor, the second mouse button can actually do useful things, like spell checking, or a thesaurus, or translation, or online dictionary lookup, or any number of other services I assign.
I use MacOS X, Windows, and Linux every day. I wish all of them and the applications on them were built for a single button mouse, and left everything else to the user to configure. But, as I said, developers are stupid. Luckily Apple isn't.