Slashdot Mirror


Professor Finds Fault with MS Grammar Checker

ChuckOp writes " front-page article in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer states: "The University of Washington associate professor has embarked on a one-man mission to persuade the Redmond company to improve the grammar-checking function in its popular word-processing program. Sandeep Krishnamurthy is also trying to raise public awareness of the issue." He includes some twisted prose that the grammar checker fails to find fault with, such as: "Marketing are bad for brand big and small. You Know What I am Saying?" and "Gates do good marketing job in Microsoft". This last comment is disputed by retired Microsoft researcher Karen Jensen, who developed part of the underlying technology; "Only by knowing that 'Gates' probably refers to Bill Gates -- and not to the plural of the movable portion of a fence -- would the program know to suggest using 'does' instead." The professor also has several twisted examples available."

92 of 607 comments (clear)

  1. Oh I See! by fembots · · Score: 5, Insightful

    By visiting his site, I found out that he is the Associate Professor of Marketing and E-Commerce, and I was played right into his hand and visited his site! I bet he's laughing with his colleague from the Department of Statistics right now.

    1. Re:Oh I See! by dr_dank · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes they're laughing, but at the notion of hearing slashdot and grammar in the same sentence.

      --
      Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
    2. Re:Oh I See! by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes they're laughing, but at the notion of hearing slashdot and grammar in the same sentence.

      That's GRAMMER, you twit!

      [...]

      Err... wait a moment....

    3. Re:Oh I See! by dsginter · · Score: 3, Funny

      By visiting his site,

      You must be new here. Welcome.

      --
      More
    4. Re:Oh I See! by khrtt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The reason there is a grammar checker in M$ Word is that M$ stuck it in there to have a leg up on competing wordprocessors (long time ago, when there actually were other WP. Now, any computational linguist will tell you, making a grammar checker actually work right is next to impossible.

      Noone can do it (yet), not microsoft, and not any serious scientific team. There is no such thing as a usable grammar checker. The reason is that in too many cases you need to understand context to be able to check grammar, and computers can't quite understand natural speech, except in scifi movies. You can make a grammar checker that will sort-of work, but all too often it would just fuck up. Just like the M$ one.

      The best you can with the grammar checker is send it the way of Clippy, i.e. turn it the fuck off.

      Now, this guy the article is about, he's a marketeer. Them marketeers invented the darn thing, and now one of them is complaning about it, and he hasn't got a clue in CompSci. He does have a clue in marketing, though. This time he's marketing his website.

    5. Re:Oh I See! by Jakeypants · · Score: 3, Informative

      I submit that "definitely" is the most commonly misspelled word here. Or perhaps "schedule" or "tomorrow."

    6. Re:Oh I See! by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Funny

      I submit that "definitely" is the most commonly misspelled word here.

      Defenetely.

    7. Re:Oh I See! by fitten · · Score: 3, Insightful

      duel/dual
      then/than
      begs the question/raises the question
      Athalon/Athlon

    8. Re:Oh I See! by Fishstick · · Score: 3, Interesting

      forgot their/there and, my fav, lose/loose

      --

      There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
      Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.

    9. Re:Oh I See! by HarvardAce · · Score: 3, Funny
      I submit that "definitely" is the most commonly misspelled word here.

      That's rediculous!

      --
      Note to self: Stop putting jokes in my insightful comments so I can get something other than +1 Funny!
    10. Re:Oh I See! by houghi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      By visiting his site,

      You must be new here. Welcome.


      If nobody reads TFA, how come we /. those sites?

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    11. Re:Oh I See! by Dun+Malg · · Score: 4, Funny
      "for all intensive purposes" supplanting "for all intents and purposes." It's not just that it's a mistake, it's a mistake based on a pretentious attempt to sound sophisticated.

      Sometime people trying to sound smart are too smart for their own good. The best example yet was related to me by a friend who teaches Photoshop at an adult school (pity him):

      Student: "I guess they shouldn't take it for granite that (something or other)"
      Teacher: "Take it for granite?"
      Student: "Yeah, you know, like 'set in stone'."
      Teacher: "...."

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    12. Re:Oh I See! by Moofie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes. Yes, it does matter.

      If you're too lazy to express your thought well, you're probably too lazy to think it through to begin with.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    13. Re:Oh I See! by GQuon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If nobody reads TFA, how come we /. those sites?

      Oh, it's not that slashdot readers don't read the articles, it's just that the posters and readers rarely mix. If you want a comment to be noticed, you can't go wasting time actually reading articles, can you?

      --
      Irene KHAAAAAAN!
    14. Re:Oh I See! by Storlek · · Score: 2, Informative
      Lose vs. loose:

      Now, spelling /luz/ as "loose" is a very likely and natural error to make: "lose" is one of only two English words, and the only verb, with /uz/ spelled "ose" (the spelling of possessive "whose" is equally surprising); the very common verb "choose" has /uz/ spelled "oose"; and anyway there's another very common word "loose" already hanging around.


      - Language Log
      --
      Bears don't normally eat things that talk and move backwards.
    15. Re:Oh I See! by amliebsch · · Score: 4, Interesting
      It is not just the grammar checker that is a problem but when I am at a new machine and I start a sentence with eBay or any other company name that uses a lower case first character, Word insists on changing it for me. These are my main reason for not liking Word. Let me get this straight. Rather than check/uncheck a few simple preference options, you condemn the whole software package and abandon it.

      "OO.org doesn't default to my desired preferences! It is obviously inferior! Back to MS-Word for me!" See how silly that sounds?

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    16. Re:Oh I See! by TFGeditor · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, I do the rejecting, not the sending.

      --
      Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
    17. Re:Oh I See! by japhmi · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, I know that you should never take Basalt for Granite, because it isn't Gneiss...

      --
      "Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys" P. J. O'Rourke
  2. It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase! by garcia · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The University of Washington associate professor has embarked on a one-man mission to persuade the Redmond company to improve the grammar-checking function in its popular word-processing program. Krishnamurthy is also trying to raise public awareness of the issue.

    It's a tool that's not meant to take the place of actual proof-reading. The grammar checker included w/Word should only alert you to the possibility of some generic issues. If you are turning in, presenting, or distributing some paper you created I would suggest that you take the time and check over it yourself. After you check over it I suggest you have someone else check it over too.

    Microsoft calls that the fundamental issue. Responding to an inquiry about Krishnamurthy's examples, the Microsoft Office group said in a statement that the grammar checker "was created to be a guide and a tool, not a perfect proofreader." Microsoft also makes that point in Word's product documentation.

    Why should MSFT be held to some high standard for a tool that they include in their software? They should be forced to change it because some college student doesn't understand that "Marketing are good" isn't grammatically correct? Blame the student and their previous education not a tool that MSFT offers.

    "If you're a grad student turning in your term paper, and you think grammar check has completely checked your paper, I have news for you -- it really hasn't," he said.

    Perhaps require your students to hand in a draft first and you can tell them. In my experience very few professors cared about grammar, spelling, or even the basic content of the paper. How are these students supposed to know what they are doing is wrong if no one will take the time to teach it to them? MSFT is supposed to do that now?

    "If you're including a feature in a widely used program like Microsoft Word, it's got to pick up more things than it currently does," he said. "I agree, the English language is very complicated, but I think we should expect more from grammar check."

    Come on. I expect that out of my college education I should have at least earned the right to have a professor take the time out of their busy schedule to check over my paper for me. Most would glance over it and say it's fine. I only had *two* that actually spent the time to tear my papers down and show me what was wrong so that I wouldn't make those mistakes again. Does this professor want to do that or does he just want to berate MSFT for not doing it?

    But how did a marketing and e-commerce professor become a grammar-checking crusader?

    The professor is careful to point out that he's not out to bash Microsoft. But he says the company is spending too much energy on extraneous capabilities, while neglecting core features such as the grammar checker.

    Sounds like bashing to me especially considering he's a Marketing prof with a background in e-commerce. I wonder what his intentions really are for this "one man crusade". The grammar checker is not a core feature IMHO. I use it as a tool to give me some quick direction but I certainly don't consider it to be the end-all and I certainly wouldn't tell my students to use it if I was a professor.

  3. So it appears to me .. by macaulay805 · · Score: 2, Funny

    That his professor found a hole in Microsoft's algorithm and is exploiting it.

    News at 11!

  4. Microsoft do bad softwares? by Neil+Blender · · Score: 5, Funny

    That's unpossible!

  5. Not so by spellraiser · · Score: 4, Funny

    I double-checked this post using Word's grammar checker. I dare you find fault with it!

    --
    I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
    1. Re:Not so by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 5, Funny
      I dare you find fault with it!

      OK. It's stupid.

      There. Do I win?

      --
      That is all.
  6. Well of course! by The+Barking+Dog · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Any automated tool that parses something as complicated and subject to variation as English grammar is going to have issues. A serious writer isn't going to rely on the MS Word grammar checker to be their sole indicator if something is written poorly. I think of it more as a tool to catch the blitheringly obvious, not the subtle details. But then again, his examples do seem pretty blitheringly obvious...

  7. Grammar checking? by badmammajamma · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You mean people don't turn that shit off immediately after installing Office?

    --
    Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. -- H. L. Mencken
  8. This is stupid. by Datamonstar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I mean come on. I'm not even a MS fan and I agree that their product could get better, but if you're going to write like a 4 year old... And it would be different if the product's purpose was souly to check grammar. It's NOT. There's a point at which the user has to step in and use some sense and actually EDIT their work themselves.

    --
    The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
  9. Ugly Web Page checker? by kokoloko · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's worse than goatse.

  10. While you're at it... by Manip · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I wish they would improve the spellchecker too. I myself am dyslexic and often have to use google to correct my spelling when the Office spellchecker lets me down.

  11. Typical M$ Problem by msaulters · · Score: 5, Insightful
    He includes some twisted prose that the grammar checker fails to find fault with, such as: "Marketing are bad for brand big and small. You Know What I am Saying?" and "Gates do good marketing job in Microsoft". This last comment is disputed by retired Microsoft researcher Karen Jensen, who developed part of the underlying technology; "Only by knowing that 'Gates' probably refers to Bill Gates -- and not to the plural of the movable portion of a fence -- would the program know to suggest using 'does' instead."


    Ms Jensen doesn't note that the example is STILL incorrect even if one doesn't assume Gates is a proper noun. Grammatically, it should be, "Gates do good marketing jobs in Microsoft." Plural JOBS.

    Of course, the chances of seeing a Jobs in Microsoft these days are probably nil.
    --
    These people looked deep into my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined.
    1. Re:Typical M$ Problem by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Gates does marketing jobs at microsoft well?

    2. Re:Typical M$ Problem by GodLived · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Should be,

      "Gates do A good marketing job at Microsoft" if you think of the swinging things. Otherwise, "Gates does A good marketing job at Microsoft" if you consider "Gates" to be a proper noun.

      Truthfully, "Poor software does A good marketing job ON Microsoft" when I enable my semantic checker.

  12. When asked directly... by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 2, Funny
    M$ replied, "We fail English? That's unpossible."

    Apologies to the young Mr. Wiggums.

    --
    If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
  13. Easy solution. Learn to write. by tinrobot · · Score: 4, Funny

    If someone has to rely on a grammar checker in order to write a decent sentence, then something is seriously wrong.

  14. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    > Why should MSFT be held to some high standard
    > for a tool that they include in their software?

    You're kidding, right?

    Maury

  15. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by DarkSarin · · Score: 4, Funny

    I have to disagree--I think that making the grammar checker more intelligent is a very important part of the program.

    I think that it is VERY annoying at this point, and I frequently turn it off because of that. Would I use an intelligent grammar check? Yes, by all means. It should also have an option for "story mode" or "dialogue", and ignore bad grammar within quotes so that I don't have hundreds of errors (alleged) popping up when I quote someone or when I choose to write about a character who uses bad grammar.

    --
    "We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
  16. Complexity of English by TildeMan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I agree that there are many shortcomings in Microsoft's grammar checker. However, to what extent should we bother trying to improve it? English is an extraordinarily complex language and it should be easy to construct "twisted" examples which any grammar checker would miss; any standard intro AI course will warn of the dangers of overfitting data anyway. On the other end of the spectrum, I'm sure it's easy to construct examples which the grammar checker will never allow but which are often perfectly acceptable under certain circumstances. English grammar simply isn't as black and white as, say, C syntax, no matter what we geeks would like. :-)

    1. Re:Complexity of English by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      English is an extraordinarily complex language

      Why is this such a common misconception on Slashdot? I know that the vast majority of slashdotters are from the U.S. but don't you study any foreign languages? I'm not familiar with the U.S. school system but it amazes me if people don't learn any German, French or Spanish in high school - if you do you should quickly notice that English is extremely simple. A few examples:
      Nouns:
      English: Definite article "the" and -s plural (with few exceptions). Choice of indefinite article a/an depends on whether the word begins with a vowel sound.
      French: Masculine/feminine that must be learnt (a few rules exist but in most cases they're useless), more irregular plural forms (and adjective declension).
      German: Der/das/die, irregular plural forms (although a few rules exist), different accusative, dative and genitive forms (and adjective declension accordingly).
      Verbs:
      English: Apart from am/are/is have/has it's trivial; just add -s for third person singular regardless of whether it's a regular or irregular verb.
      French: A nightmare: Five simple tenses and five compound tenses and so many irregular forms (and they're irregular for all persons).
      German: Different endings for all persons (but fortunately they're the same for irregular verbs too). Two alternative auxiliary verbs (but fortunately it's quite easy to know which one).

      And those are just languages that you should know - nouns can easily get even more complicated. In Swedish each noun has four forms since no equivalent of "the" exists - instead you append -t/-n/-et/-en/nothing for singular forms and then have a definite and an indefinitie plural form (and these are not very regular). The real fun starts when we get to extremely synthetic languages such as Finnish when you have a ratio of ~5-6 English words per Finnish word since you modify words instead of using more of the. The Finnish spellchecker for Word is a joke - once the language gets slightly more complicated it starts to suggest word forms, which don't exist since its limited grammar rules don't suffice. Obviously the spellchecker for both Swedish and Finnish has been made with a much smaller budget than the English one since the markets are smaller but they're not only bad - they're buggy as hell (the Swedish one frequently suggests exactly the same spelling that I already have and once I accept the "correction" it suggests the same correction again...).

      And that's what I can say with my (in my opinion) quite limited knowledge of languages (grew up in Sweden, spoke Finnish at home, studied English, French and German in school).

  17. They expect way too much... by hankwang · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It goes a bit far to require a software company to design software that can do a full grammatical analysis of phrases. That is more something for a long-term academic research project. Take for example articles. If you've ever cooperated with someone with a background in Asiatic or Slavic languages, you start to realize how hard that is. The ground rule is: always put "a" or "the" in front of a singular noun. Article placement (note: without article) is hard. The article placement, or the lack thereof, in the previous sentence, was correct. Why only "the" in the second phrase? How would you let a wordprocessor feel the difference? Most of the grammatical errors in the shown examples are about those articles.

    I'd rather have a program that points out the typical mistakes that occur when you cut and paste around, i.e. phrases without a verb, or with too many verbs, than one that is giving false alarms all the time. A grammar checker cannot fix a bad writer. Neither a spell checker, for that matter. (Do you write "advise" or "advice"?)

    Personally, I don't use grammar checkers (not available for Emacs AFAIK anyway), and a spell checker only if I doubt about a particular word. There are way too many words in the kind of things that I write that make the spell checker freak out.

    BTW, I probably made a mistake or two in this posting. My excuse is that I ain't no native speaker. :)

  18. openoffice by rkv · · Score: 2, Interesting

    heh my openoffice.org caught the mistakes and speeling errors :P

  19. Maybe they should improve the English language by PxM · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If the MLA would come up with a formal specification of the English language that was a recursively enumerable language it wouldn't be so fucking hard to parse the language. They could at least formalize things like order-of-operations regarding clauses and enumerated lists and give a better set of punctuation to work with. They should choose whether they want the language to be pure communications medium with a formal syntax or if they want it to be a completely flexible means of artistic expression full of nuances and hints that can only be understood by a sentient being who has studied the language in-depth for many years.


    --
    Want a free iPod?
    Or try a free Nintendo DS, GC, PS2, Xbox. (you only need 4 referrals)
    Wired article as proof

    1. Re:Maybe they should improve the English language by gatrox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That would not be very helpful for finding grammar mistakes because of the halting problem... Now if the specification language was recursive (i.e decidable) or better in the Chomsky hierarchy, then we could have something usable.

    2. Re:Maybe they should improve the English language by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That would make the language sound like crap. It would be the death of literature. It would be the death of poetry. I'd say it would be the death of song lyrics, but Brittany Spears already did that.

      The flexibility and weirdness of the language is what makes it so popular. It can convey complex ideas in ways that are both odd and profound. If it were rigourously rulebound, a lot fo that flexibility would be gone.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  20. The rise of Microsoft English(TM) by G4from128k · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I see this all the time in errors in newspapers and magazines. Its obvious that someone ran a checker and just clicked "OK" at whatever was suggested. Spelling and grammar checkers have taken the place of actual knowledge of the language.

    I suspect that, in the long run, this will change usage so that Microsoft English becomes considered acceptable. But the trend does frighten me, given the recent issue with open standards in Massachusetts. In a dystopian future, open source eye-balls will only be allowed to read, not write, the language.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
  21. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by garcia · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > Why should MSFT be held to some high standard
    > for a tool that they include in their software?

    You're kidding, right?


    This isn't a mission critical piece of software included with Windows OS. It's an extraneous tool included with Word to help and guide people to realize that there might be an issue with their writing.

  22. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by cot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "I certainly wouldn't tell my students to use it if I was a professor."

    Why the hell not? It's far from perfect, but it still will catch bad grammar 9 times out of 10, so I fail to see how this makes it useless.

    Yes, you still have to proofread. However, proofreading is imperfect, especially when it's your own work and you don't have time to set it down and come back to it with a fresh perspective. At least the grammar checker will highlight most of your mistakes, and the false positives can be quickly evaluated and ignored.

    Yes, it could be significantly better, but that doesn't mean it's useless. You just have to know its limitations.

    --

  23. Obviously Misinterpretted the Use of Grammar-Check by dayid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This isn't something new. People have known for years that the grammar checker is less than perfect. Now, if this were a developer saying, "Well, it would be better if you did..." I would have a lot more respect for the article. I can point out problems with lots of things left and right, and without giving a good, reasonable solution, simply pointing them out is what we generally call complaining.

    I'm far from a fan of Microsoft, but since I work for a literacy program funded by the U.S. Government, I am adequately shocked that people use grammar check for anything more than catching where they mistyped "th estory" instead of "the story" and similar such mistakes. Also being a college student, I find myself re-reading my papers quite often, and generally fixing a few mistakes in my original text. Few, if any, of these would have been found by the grammar checker.

    Then again, I guess you could also say I have an agenda to UN-automate the process of checking spelling and grammar, as it seems to me it's growing to be one of those automated features that doesn't just serve in time-saving, but also extends to the dumbing of America. Not just the, "I don't care" kind of dumb, but also the "I don't have any need to care" kind.

    Please, get over it.

  24. Two words: Proof read by AnonymousJackass · · Score: 4, Insightful
    If you're a grad student turning in your term paper, and you think grammar check has completely checked your paper, I have news for you -- it really hasn't,
    If you're a grad student relying on Word's grammar check for your term paper, you get everything you deserve! The grammar/spell check on Word, or any other word processing tool for that matter, is there to be used as assistance but should not be used as the definitive answer for anything remotely important!

    By all means use a spell checker but if you've spend days/weeks/months writing a paper, the least you can do is spend a few hours reading it for grammatical errors!
  25. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by cot · · Score: 5, Funny

    "I don't know much about US high school education, but I would expect that students coming into college would know how to write grammatical English"

    The latter part of this statement makes me really believe the former.

    --

  26. I May Be In the Minority on This by Skye16 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But I say "good". I'm glad the grammar checker in Word is so fubar. It shouldn't be the catch-all for any paper you write. If it points something out that is incorrect and you fix it - okay! If it points out something correct and you tell it to ignore it because you do have a decent grasp on the English language, then okay. And if you just tell it to "Fix All", then you deserve to get the "wtF?!" at the top of your paper. Sure, English can be a bit of a pain, but you should never completely rely on someone else's grammar checker to take the place of learning the language in the first place.

  27. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by ThosLives · · Score: 5, Funny
    ...ignore bad grammar within quotes so that I don't have hundreds of errors (alleged) popping up...
    You should see what Word does to engineering specifications if you forget to turn off spelling and grammar checking...
    --
    "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
  28. A professor, eh? by Jerf · · Score: 5, Insightful
    A professor, eh? Let's check that website:
    SANDEEP KRISHNAMURTHY, Associate Professor of Marketing and E-Commerce, University of Washington, Bothell
    Oh.

    So, what we have here is somebody just saying, in essense, "Gee, Microsoft, why isn't your software at human-level AI? I mean, how hard can that be?" and is so utterly incompetent at assessing how hard grammar checking is that they are utterly unaware of how incompetent they are. (Hmmm, that sounds familiar, though this isn't quite the same.)

    I invite Associate Professor of Marketing and E-Commerce Sandeep Krishnamurthy to try his hand at the AI problems he is upset that Microsoft hasn't waved a magic wand and fixed, though I feel obligated to warn him that as an associate professor of marketing, he's likely to be in for a world of intellectual hurt unless he's got some other source of knowledge and skill squirreled away somewhere, like a PhD in Computer Science he is for some reason forgetting to mention.... Perhaps then he would have some understanding of why even the mighty Microsoft has not yet produced the Perfect Grammar Checker....

    On that note, check in with actual Linguists on the feasibility of the idea of a Perfect Grammar, too. You probably have a lot to learn there, too.
  29. Don't I know it by jointm1k · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Dutch version of the Microsoft spelling checker changes my name, "Mikael", to "Eikel". This means acorn, in Dutch. "Eikel" also refers to the sensitive part of the male sex. A third meaning is that of "jerk". Needless to say I have never used the Microsoft spelling checker ever since. >:(

    --
    You know it makes sense, a little reminder from jointm1k.
  30. Another TM in the works? by Kainaw · · Score: 2, Funny

    Only by knowing that 'Gates' probably refers to Bill Gates -- and not to the plural of the movable portion of a fence --

    Is Microsoft going to trademark 'Gates' now as they did with 'Windows' so you'll have to pay him a license fee every time you talk about your 'moveable portion of a fence'?

    --
    The previous comment is purposely vague and generalized, but all of the facts are completely true.
  31. GRAAAH!!! by flyingsquid · · Score: 5, Funny

    Hulk work hard on Grammar Checker for Microsoft! Program many long hours. Very hard to type with huge green hands and puny little keys! Many times get angry and smash keyboard. Many keyboards broken. Hulk also get help with grammar from Yoda. Yoda very wise. Maybe not best work in world, but Hulk take pride in work. Why puny University of Washington professor criticize hard work of Hulk? Criticism hurt Hulk's feelings. Hulk angry! HULK SMASH!

  32. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by rpdillon · · Score: 5, Funny
    I certainly wouldn't tell my students to use it if I was a professor.

    That should be "if I were a professor". It's the subjunctive mood. Betcha you wish you had a better grammar checker now!

  33. Rules of Grammar by jamesl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Instead of moaning, Mr. Krishnamurthy should write a brief and complete Rules of English Grammar for his friends across town. For reference, he can use Elements of English Grammar: Rules Explained Simply (310 pages) or Rules, Patterns and Words : Grammar and Lexis in English Language Teaching (Cambridge Language Teaching Library) (246 pages).

    English grammar is complex and often twisted in its logic. Its amazing that the MS Word grammar checker works so well.

  34. Interesting link on his website shows by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 3, Funny

    that he is speaking not to harm Ceasar, but to make Ceasar a better person:

    From his Most common mistakes by students:

    "10. Not running Microsoft Word's spelling and grammar check."

    From this we gather that he does want people to use the spelinng and gramer czechs ...

    and

    "11. Assuming that Microsoft Word's spelling and grammar check will solve all writing problems."

    Which leads us to believe that he has a purpose to this critique of MSFT Word grammar checking.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  35. It's a grammar CHECKER! by Anita+Coney · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It should only be used by people who understand grammar. It's the same with spell checkers. You have to know the difference between there, they're, and their before you can use one.

    --
    If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
  36. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by mspohr · · Score: 2, Interesting
    When you have a monopoly, there is no need to innovate. Read this http://papyr.com/hypertextbooks/engl_126/gramchek. htm evaluation of grammer checkers which shows that the latest versions MS Word are WORSE than Word 97 and Word Perfect.

    As the author of Grammatik put it:

    "I've been in a discussion with John about how the grammar checking available today, 2002, is essentially no different than it was in 1992 when I sold my company to WordPerfect and quit working on the code. Essentially, what has happened is that Microsoft has decided that its version of a grammar checker is 'good enough' and has stopped significant work on improvement. No one else in the world has the resources to build a better grammar checker. "Who wants to try to compete with Microsoft Word's 95% market share?

    --
    I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
  37. Grammar Nazis of the Word Unite! by shanen · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Or should that be "of the World"?

    Trying to think of something profound to say, but the grammar checker is pretty short of profound. I use Word for hours most days, and I certainly feel like the grammar checker is of limited utility. The simple spelling checking part of it delivers far and away the most bang for the buck. The grammar checker only contributes slightly, and that's usually by recognizing ambiguities. It doesn't help fix them, but if I can simplify the grammar to the point where the grammar checker stops complaining, then the passage is often rendered more clearly.

    I think doing more would require a level of semantic understanding which is still far, far above the capabilities of our PCs, even given their gigahertz frequencies. Trying to substitute for real intelligence is difficult. The only thing I can imagine might be a very large database of examples of good and bad grammar examples, accessed via the Internet. The problem of deciding good and bad would still remain. Perhaps a Wikipedia-style approach with volunteer evaluators?

    --
    Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
  38. Not only that by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Thus far, it's the best grammar checker I've seen. Far from perfect, certianly, but I've never had anyone show me one that was any better.

    You have to remember that grammar checking is much harder than spell checking. Basically, all a spell checker needs is a dictonary of words. If a given word isn't found in the dictonary, it is marked as incorrect. You may get a high rate of false positives if your dictonary sucks, but you'll basically never miss anything.

    Grammar is harder since now we are dealing with types of words and how they go together. You can't have a database of sentences and check against that, there just isn't the space to hold all that, never mind the ability to generate it. So you have to use hurestics of some kind to analyze the words and see if the match up based on your rules.

    Also what the rules are is somewhat hard to decide. Natural languages grow and change. What was fine 50 years ago in English isn't necessiarly fine today. Plus there are different standards to which one might be held. There are things that are allowable in normal conversational speech that aren't in a scholarly paper.

    Basically, if he thinks he can make or can point out a better grammar checker, be my guest, but at this point it just sounds like so much whining. He wants perfection in an imperfect field.

  39. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by morcheeba · · Score: 3, Informative

    Yeah, but it has pretty much killed the market for this type of software. There was a time when you bought a grammar checker as an add-on package from a different vendor.

  40. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by ajs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Would I use an intelligent grammar check? Yes, by all means. [... goes on to make suggestions ...]"

    What you're missing is the fact that this is one of the hardest problems ever tackled by computer science. Not only that, but even a moderate improvement over what MS does now would likely require an order of magnitude more code and run-time computation, making it inappropriate for most usage!

    MS Word does an OK job of spotting the most common errors, but if you're better at it than MS Word is, just shut the thing off. There, no problems.

    As far as writing something that you KNOW is incorrect... ok, so you get a green line under text that you already know is a problem, but you don't intend to change. No big deal. Why is this an imposition?

  41. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by shawn(at)fsu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I always found that a good 'grammer checker' was to use a text to speach program if you don't have anyone else to read your own paper. This caught more erros for me than MS's grammer check. I can't blame MS for this. The English and I'm sure many languages are really hard to break down in to a set of rules a computer can understand given so much is based on the context.

    --
    500 dollar reward for tip(s) leading to the arrest of the person(s) who stole my sig.
  42. Does this mean that in Longhorn, Clippy will say: by saskboy · · Score: 2, Funny

    I see you is trying to write a letter, would you like some helps?

    --
    Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
  43. Offensive to Lesbians by jolyonr · · Score: 2, Funny

    As the article on The Register pointed out, the MS Grammar Checker is offensive to lesbians, espeically those studying Geology:

    The innocent phrase "The dykes which cut the granite are 2m wide" was converted, by MS Word, to "The dykes who cut the granite are 2m wide".

    Jolyon

    --


    Please read my Canon EOS tech blog at http://www.everyothershot.com
  44. Re:Grammar Check is worse than inadequate by Hannah+E.+Davis · · Score: 3, Insightful
    This is why I have never ever had a prof that recommends it. If they mention it at all, it's to say that it can't be trusted and that we should always proofread. Using a Word grammar checker on its own to check and correct your terrible grammar is like using the Altavista babelfish for a French assignment -- there's always a chance that it might work as planned, but it's not likely, so you had better check the result over very carefully.

    It does have one important use that I have found, though. I have this bad habit (as you may have already noticed) of rambling on and on and on and writing extremely long sentences. These aren't technically grammatical mistakes, of course, but the Word grammar check will still warn me about them so I know what needs to be tweaked/rewritten.

    For my assignments these days, however, I prefer to use emacs/vim/vi, and I've been teaching myself how to format in Latex as well. I frequently take advantage of the spellcheck in emacs, of course, but for the most part I just don't worry about it and fix any minor errors that I might find when I proofread.

    (Disclaimer: When writing a /. post, I am not in uber-careful essay mode, so my spelling and grammar may be erratic.)

  45. Re:Marketing are good. by CyberLife · · Score: 2, Informative

    This highlights a noticeable difference between the British and American dialects of English. Britons tend to refer to groups of people in the plural sense (e.g. marketing are good). Americans, however, tend to refer to groups of people in the singular sense (e.g. marketing is good). Neither way is more or less correct than the other -- just different.

  46. ESL - ARG by backlonthethird · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The biggest problem with the grammar check in my experience is that people just plain trust it too much. I used to work in a writing center in a large private college. We served a lot of English as a Second Langauge students. Smart people, for the most part. They would come in with papers with the most convoluted and aggravating grammar I'd ever seen. When I ask about why they chose to write in that way, about half said that they had originally wrote it like X (where X is actually human-readable), but the grammar checker told them it was wrong so they just accepted it since it obviously knew English better than they did.

    It did make for some nice teaching opportunities when I got to tell them they were smarter than they thought, but it's frustrating to think that people accept that "The computer must be right" even with something as complex and human as grammar.

  47. Who actually uses it? by DaoudaW · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Seriously, who uses the grammar checker? I've usually been more annoyed by the false-positives. I'm kind of surprised that there are problems with false negatives as well. The first thing I do when I have to use a M$ product is turn off Clippy, spelling and grammar. Those things interrupt my train of thought quicker than anything else.

    But I'm seriously curious, do most people try to use the grammar checker?

  48. Open source grammar checking tools by derek_farn · · Score: 5, Informative

    There are two open source grammar checkers available (Language tool and Queequeg ). Both have strengths and weaknesses and could do with a lot more work to improve on the number strengths they have. Unfortunately people with the necessary expertise rarely have the time needed to get involved on these kinds of projects. If anybody is interested and has some expertise then send me some email. Perhaps we produce something better.

  49. Linux Grammar Checker? by IdJit · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You know why no one's complained about the apparent lack of a grammar checker for Linux?

    No one uses it! Even when using MS Word, I look at the suggested grammar corrections and say, "Oh, that's nice. Whatever." Then, I go on writing and fix errors myself.

    In other words, in order to operate a mule, you must first be smarter than the mule.

  50. MS grammar checker deserves praise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is close to the most gratuitous attack on Microsoft that I've seen in a long while, which is a huge distinction in Slashdot. :-)

    Show me other "grammar checkers" in the market that do better than the one in Word! The guy is a professor of Marketing yet he feels qualified to complain about the grammar checker. The Word grammar checker was the first migration of Microsoft Research know-how to a product. They had a group of 10+ linguists who developed the model and carefully tuned it. After 7-8 years since the first release, it is still state-of-the-art from an AI standpoint. I would blame MS for many things, but the grammar checker is not one. I'd love to see the Marketing professor try to improve it.

  51. Deja Vue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    I like it best when the Word spelling/grammar checker gets in a loop.

    Me: Type a word.
    MS Word: Should be hyphenated.
    Me: Change word.
    MS Word: Shouldn't be hyphenated.
    Me: Change word back.
    MS Word: Should be hyphenated.
    Me: *Arrrgh!!!*

  52. Re:Grammar Check is worse than inadequate by cloak42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It does have one important use that I have found, though. I have this bad habit (as you may have already noticed) of rambling on and on and on and writing extremely long sentences. These aren't technically grammatical mistakes, of course, but the Word grammar check will still warn me about them so I know what needs to be tweaked/rewritten.

    Perhaps. But while I'm also a rather Nathaniel Hawthorne-esque writer in terms of my sentence lengths, that does NOT make it incorrect, nor does it necessarily make it more difficult to read. (My previous sentence would have been flagged in Word, yet if you read it, you notice that it has decent flow and is easy to understand.)

    What bothers me the most is that Word's grammar checker assumes you're an idiot. Every single time that I have it enabled and use a semicolon, it flags it, saying "Semicolon use". Based on the way I see that "correction" used, it assumes that the person writing is stupid and MUST have used it mistakenly. Even in the best of light, this method is rude, merely because it second-guesses you every time. I KNOW how to use a semicolon, dammit, and I'll do it when I damn well please.

    I can understand why they have it do this; since semicolons are meant to tie two related clauses together, it makes it more difficult to guage whether the two sentences on either side of the semicolon are correctly tied together. Instead, they merely flag it every time it's used. But man, do I ever get the feeling that it's insulting my intelligence.

    I tend to shut off the grammar checker and instead I only use the spellcheck function. Even then, I tend to add strange things to the custom dictionary, so that when I use certain phrases or intentional misspellings (such as "dammit", above) it doesn't fuss at me.

    I agree with what other people here are saying though: There is NO substitute for proper proofing.

  53. Re:Linux Grammar checker by sewagemaster · · Score: 3, Informative
    Does anybody know of any grammar checkers for Linux ???


    There's Queequeg, which is based on wordnet.

    You would need to feed in text files for these to work. I haven't found any text editors that have automatic grammar checking on the fly like MSWord though. Would be interesting if someone writes a plugin for gedit, for grammar checking, just like the way they already have automatic spell checking which uses ispell/aspell as the backend.

    (heck, they don't even have automatic spell checking [on-the-fly] for kate (or kile) after seeing the feature request in bugs.kde.org for years. It can be quite troublesome when editing large latex documents.)
  54. The /. crowd should shut up by mi · · Score: 2, Insightful
    until an open-source word-processor offers a better grammar checker than Microsoft's...

    Heck, until any other word-processor does it.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  55. ALL YOUR BASE by gkwok · · Score: 5, Funny
    I typed in the following text to Microsoft Word 2003:
    In A.D. 2101 war was beginning.
    What happen?
    Somebody set up us the bomb.
    We get signal.
    What!
    Main screen turn on.
    It's you!!
    How are you gentlemen!!
    All your base are belong to us.
    You are on the way to destruction.
    What you say!!
    You have no chance to survive make your time.
    Ha Ha Ha
    Captain!!
    Take off every 'Zig'!!
    You know what you doing.
    Move 'Zig'.
    For great justice.

    The only things it flagged were "all your base are" (suggested "base is" or "bases are") and "for great justice" (sentence fragment).

    Grammatical and sociological implications are left as an exercise to the reader.

  56. It's about time by Pingsmoth · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When I was doing my student teaching, every time we were in the computer lab I had to go around showing my students how to turn off the grammar checker. Most of my students simply got frustrated with that squiggly green line and stopped writing altogether when it showed up. Sometimes it found actual grammatical errors, but most of the time it just found ways to piss off my students for no good reason.

    I think the concept is a good one, but it sorely needs to be updated.

    --
    http://www.walkingtaco.com
  57. It takes grammar to check the grammar checkers by mooncaine · · Score: 2, Funny

    Grammar checkers aren't needed by anyone who knows grammar [for them, it's an annoying waste of time]. Thus, people who'd recognize the checkers' poor performance aren't looking. People who don't know grammar well wouldn't know that the grammar checker performs too poorly to be reliable. Thus, the people who "need" this service cannot be sure whether it served them well, or poorly. The only solution: pay attention in grammar classes. Ignorance is only an excuse if it's not willful. If you *want* to be dumb, expect no sympathy from the smart. Of course, if you're dumb, there's no point in telling you this -- you won't take smart advice.

  58. correct me if i'm wrong.... by drew · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Gates do good marketing job in Microsoft". This last comment is disputed by retired Microsoft researcher Karen Jensen, who developed part of the underlying technology; "Only by knowing that 'Gates' probably refers to Bill Gates -- and not to the plural of the movable portion of a fence -- would the program know to suggest using 'does' instead."

    Even if the program assumes that "gates" is a plural common noun, and not a singular proper noun, shouldn't a remotely decent grammar checker still find fault with this sentence (beyond it's nonsensical nature)? Along with accidentally repeated double words, mixing singular and plural nouns/verbs is one lf the only things that the grammar check seems to actually be good for.

    It seems like a halfway decent grammar checker in this case would at least recommend "Gates do good marketing jobs in Microsoft"

    --
    If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
  59. Didn't You Read The FAQ? by Greyfox · · Score: 2, Informative
    WE don't /. those sites. When a story is posted on /., gigantic machines in the /. basement go to work consuming every bit of bandwith to the site, thus preventing anyone from accidentally being tempted to read TFA before posting. This process stops (for the most part) once the next story's posted, as everyone will have posted in the previous story by then.

    Glad to have cleared that up.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  60. Idiot professor... by jonadab · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This guy needs to look up "AI Complete". Natural language parsing is not just a common example, it is *the* canonical example, the one that is NEVER left out of ANY serious discussion of the issue. Of *course* their grammar checker is worthless; *every* computer grammar checker is worthless (unless it's checking the grammar for a computer language, as opposed to a human language).

    --
    Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
  61. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by H_Fisher · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Come on. I expect that out of my college education I should have at least earned the right to have a professor take the time out of their busy schedule to check over my paper for me. Most would glance over it and say it's fine. I only had *two* that actually spent the time to tear my papers down and show me what was wrong so that I wouldn't make those mistakes again. Does this professor want to do that or does he just want to berate MSFT for not doing it?

    A large number of English instructors at American colleges and universities today are either grad. students or part-timers, most of them earning $14,000 - $20,000 per year. Many of these people have 60 to 100 students per semester. Example: I started out as a grad. student teaching assistant. In addition to a full-time teaching load, I had 50 students to teach. I had to balance my own assignments with planning assignments, leading classes, and grading ~200 essays per semester. Later on, as an adjunct (part-time instructor) at a community college in North Carolina, I got paid $24 per credit hour per week. In other words, for teaching a standard 3-credit course, I was paid $72 per week - and I was only paid for the time I spent in class. No compensation for time spent in my office, grading and working with students outside of class, formulating assignments, etc. When my colleagues and I did the math for all the time we spent on these activities, we found we were making about $7.75 an hour. The majority of American students are being taught English by instructors like these.

    Different people react to this shameful situation in academia different ways. For me, when I had 400 pages of writing to grade in a week, the only solution was to go over a paper one time, carefully, and to refer the student to a writing tutor at other times. It's not a question of wanting to help, or being too lazy to help. It's a question of the ability to do so. In a perfect world, tuition and fees paid to a university would "earn you the right" to have individual assistance with each writing assignment. Blame the academic world's focus on profit and part-time labor for the fact that isn't so.

  62. Confessions of a UW English major. by creative_Righter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm a senior in the English Department at the University of Washington. I can tell you for a fact grammar has gone by the wayside. Last quarter, in my advanced expository writing class my teacher gave a room full of English majors a grammar quiz. Five out of twenty people understood when to use "whom". Two people could use "to lay" and "to lie" and their respective participles correctly. One person (me) found all the errors in the paragraph at the end of the test. This is not a class filled with freshman--this is an upper-level English class at a major University.

    Part of the blame rests on the complexity involved with parsing language. That particular class relied heavily on peer review simply because editing is hard, time consuming work, even if you know all the rules. An instructor reading twenty rough drafts of a ten page paper cannot reply meaningfully to every one in a couple of hours. Content and structure always outweigh grammar and spelling when a teacher had limited time to really look at a student's work.

    The other part of the blame arises from hubris associated with grammar. If you tell someone that they need to work on their grammar, they will probably think that you're insinuation that they return to grade school. I think studying grammar should not be relegated the ESL students and middle-schoolers. If you can tell me what the subjunctive mood is without looking it up or use a dash, colon and semicolon without fear then more power to you. If you cannot, perhaps MS Word's grammar checker isn't the only thing that needs a rehaul.

    Insightful, lucid, and grammatically-correct writing is a by-product of hard, relentless work that cannot (yet) be replicated.

  63. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by iabervon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Google finds 4,770,000 hits for "if I were", as opposed to 2,970,000 for "if I was" (which obviously includes indicative conditionals, which are uncommon but still account for some of the cases). That's a 61% market share for the subjunctive, in this construction at least. The subjunctive may be widely recognized as being virtually extinct, but I'm not going to give up on it until Netcraft... er, Google confirms it.

    (This contrasts significantly with "whom", which seems to appear most commonly in usage examples, old writing, and references to old writing, like the common title pattern "For Whom the * *")

  64. There are alternatives: by Sebastian+Jansson · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I tried with WordPerfect 12:s Gramatik and it caomplained on
    all double !:es and the following in []s:
    In A.D. 2101 war was beginning.
    What [happen]?
    Somebody set [up us] the bomb.
    We get [signal].
    What!
    Main screen [turn] On.
    It's you!!
    How are [you] [gentlemen]!!
    All your base are [belong] to us.
    You are on the way to destruction.
    What you say!!
    You have no chance to survive [make] your time.
    [Ha Ha] Ha
    Captain!!
    Take off every 'Zig'!!
    You know what you doing.
    Move 'Zig'.
    For great justice.
    It also explained what the errors were in all cases, in some of them it was able to provide a correct replacement.

    I'm not a WordPerfect user, I downloaded the trial just for this because I've heard that it would be good for this kind of things.
  65. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by Faterson · · Score: 2, Informative

    I occasionally send documents to others who are not as wise to the many problems associated with MS Grammar check. They open it up and see that there are a bunch of green lines and think that I don't know anything about grammar.

    I circumvent that by having recorded a macro that, after you highlight a portion of the text and press the assigned keyboard shortcut, instructs Word to ignore that passage in its spelling/grammar check. I run those macros when I do my final rereading of the texts just before I submit them.

  66. Re:It's only a simple tool! Use your knowledgebase by 26199 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It saddens me that a lot of people don't have "whom" in their vocabulary. I use it correctly... and I don't exactly have a privileged upbringing or anything. Nor do I know English in any technical sense, so I couldn't explain where you are supposed to use "whom" using the correct linguistic terms.

    Ah well. One of the major strengths of English is that it can change, so I suppose there's no point making a fuss about it. But I'll defend my little patch of English :-)

    Oh, and, on topic... this is dumb. There isn't a single system in existence for which you cannot construct examples that'll make it look bad. Indeed, I believe attention has moved away from hand-coding rules with the goal of achieving perfection, and towards statistical techniques. 100% correctness might be impossible but they get the job done with a lot less hassle.

  67. Obligatory Futurama quote!!!!!! by Silentnite · · Score: 2, Funny

    Fry: Now he's trapped in a book I wrote, a crummy world of spelling errors and plot holes.

    Giant brain: The big brain am winning again! I am the GREETEST! Now I am leaving Earth for NO RAISIN!

  68. Don't rely on programs to fix your grammar by Krimszon · · Score: 2

    What's wrong with learning grammar yourself? If I write on a piece of paper, there's no grammar check either, yet somehow I manage to write correct grammar.

  69. Re:My peeve by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Insightful
    This is probably very old, as it exists in other languages, but in a slightly different form (e.g. the exception confirms the rule).
    Way to miss the point completely. Go and read the post you're replying to. If it exists in other languagues (which I doubt), it's as a bad translation of modern English. Why a bad translation? Because that isn't what the English saying means! The saying is based on an obsolete sense of the word, similar to German pruefen or Italian provare.

    If you think about it, it's impossible for an exception to confirm a rule. However an exception may well test or challenge how the rule is formulated. Try it out with this one: even numbers are never prime. Does the existence of 2 confirm it?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."