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Java Fallout: OO.o 2.0 and the FOSS Community
Joe Barr writes "Bruce Byfield has an interesting look at the 'fallout' between OpenOffice.org and the free/open source software communities because of their reliance on Java in the latest release. As he says, "It seems a decision based largely on practical considerations -- and with a disregard for the consequences for both the rest of the free and open source software (FOSS) communities and the future of OpenOffice.org itself." This is an issue that is not going away."
"Java is probably already on most desktop computers." Most computers may have some sort of Java libs, but you have to have the Java Runtime Environment or the SDK for OOo. Most computers do not in fact have this. Microsoft packages its own Java runtimes which, as far as I know are incompatible with OOo, and many linux distros don't package it due to licensing issues. I do agree that OOo is a great office suite and the price is great, but it would be a lot more portable and easier to distribute if it did not rely on Java so much.
From TFA,
"By contrast, Red Hat and Fedora prefer to build OpenOffice.org with the GNU Compiler for Java (GCJ), which is not only a compiler, but also a free JRE. This was Red Hat's strategy with earlier versions of OpenOffice.org, and Red Hat engineers are attempting to continue it. Caolan Macnamara, a programmer at Red Hat, has reported limited success compiling earlier developer builds of version 2.0. However, GCJ is not yet a complete replacement for official releases of Java, and adding patches makes the strategy painstaking and laborious at best."
- vimal
Microsoft no longer has a JRE -- they were forced to stop it, because of the DOJ.
And most desktop computers, windows at least, have sun JRE, because 90% of gaming sites require it.
Jay | http://oldos.org
The .NET SDK (compilers and everything else you need) is free from MSFT.
For everything else, there's Mono and dotGNU, and plently of fledgeling C# compilers.
Blackdown isn't open source:
We each are dedicated to the professional development of the Java platform for Linux based on the community source concept. We see participation in the Blackdown project as a cutting-edge opportunity for intellectual cooperation between the open source community and the commercial software industry. We each are committed to abiding by the agreements we've made with Sun and other technology vendors. We aim to use their good will to further the cause of independence for software developers around the world. A bridge between the open source community and the commercial software development world is to everyone's advantage, and we would like to exemplify that relationship. We believe that the vendors with whom we partner are committed to the same ideals.
It's a free-for-non-commercial-use linux port of Java. It's stillborn in the corporate world.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I'm not going to claim that it's my favourite language, nor am I going to pretend that I prefer it to something that's fully free/open source, but it serves its purpose. I'm a computer science student stuck somewhere between first and second year (I switched faculties, so I'm behind), so I've been learning both C and Java concurrently. Because the learning language is Java, I have more experience in that, but I find C more fun. However, I am not going to hop on the OMG! JAVA IS TEH SUCK!!11! bandwagon because it does have some merits. Some were mentioned by the article, but in my personal experience, the main thing that I like about it is its portability. If I'm looking to download a program that doesn't have to run fast, and I want to use it on both my Linux laptop and Windows desktop, I'll look for something written in Java so I don't have to worry about either Mandrake or Windows flatly refusing to run it. The extra (and basically one-time) step of downloading the latest version of Java onto my computer before I can run a Java app really doesn't compare to desperately Googling around for something that will definitely not screw up due to OS issues when I try to install it.
Ok, now... back to the article before I get too far off-topic. If Open Office works with Java bits in it, that's great. I don't use it much anyway, since emacs, vim, or even vi will normally serve my purpose.
Given that it's perfectly legal to implement a system like Kaffe, given that it exists, that it can be done if you absolutely must, what is the actual issue with using Java in Open Source projects? Lord knows there are _tons_ of FOSS projects written in Java out there...
If the issue is just the Sun license and the "non-official" status of projects like Kaffe, to that I just have to say, guys, get over yourself. If you don't like the Open Office folks writing functionality that depends on Java, write it in C or whatever your self and contribute it. Seriously.
As far as end users? They don't care what something is written in. They want something that works. To that end, placing yet another installation requirement in the chain isn't great, but at the same time, the vast majority of user installations ( including on Linux ) simply aren't complete without a working JVM anyway, so... what's the big deal again?
What bollox. SUN permits redistribution of its JRE with applications. Many vendors already do this with the JRE version they want to run against to save the user having to download a specific version.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
From the article:
By contrast, Red Hat and Fedora prefer to build OpenOffice.org with the GNU Compiler for Java (GCJ), which is not only a compiler, but also a free JRE. This was Red Hat's strategy with earlier versions of OpenOffice.org, and Red Hat engineers are attempting to continue it. Caolan Macnamara, a programmer at Red Hat, has reported limited success compiling earlier developer builds of version 2.0. However, GCJ is not yet a complete replacement for official releases of Java, and adding patches makes the strategy painstaking and laborious at best.
Fellow FreeBSD user here.
You can build OO without Java:
make -DWITHOUT_JAVA
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
A lot of people care.
Many of us dont want to be tied to something non-free, and thus controlled by another party.
"does the job" has a wider meaning to us.
It also limits what OO will run on now. If there isnt a java port that is blessed by Sun, then you 'cant run it here'.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
" Sorry, but what competitors to VB6 does the OSS community have?"
Python with wxwindows is excellent. There are lots of gui builders for wxwindows and some IDEs to make it easy for ya. I for one think click and drag programming especially the kind built into VB6 is an abomination. It makes for messy code that is hard to maintain and soon degenerates into a mess of spghetti. I also need not mentions the awful error handling of VB do I. It's better to use something like wxwindows or swing that are true MVC frameworks. Even if it takes you longer to code it up front you will save time later in the debugging and maintenance portions of your lifecycle.
If you really want clicky programming there is also rekall for database work and dabo if you want something that mimics foxpro.
evil is as evil does
And for what it's worth, as a language it is reasonably "safe" WRT appliation development, in that many of problems C/C++ apps have (buffer overruns etc.) do not exist due to code running on managed environment (same holds true for C#, Python, Perl, VB, etc).
As to your Java virus... that sounds like a hoax to me -- Java applets do not have enough access to create viruses of any kind. So the only way for a virus to exist would be to write a full java app that you'd have to execute, just like any other app.
You don't know very far. Jikes RVM is licensed under the CPL, which, according to the FSF, is a Free Software license.
You're getting a FREE Office Suite and you're bitching.
What a bunch of ingrates.
I use both PyGTK and PyQt (professionally), deploying on Windows and GNU/Linux clients. There is no runtime issue. py2exe creates a standalone executable for Windows. Conceptually it's very similar to VBRUN600.DLL, except that your own extension modules can also go into the executable, so there's no need to leave rubbish lying around the system.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
Boy you stepped into it on this one.
Where is parrot today? Where has it been for the past five years?
I gave you the link on the last post. Its on the net like most OSS projects. Today you can (and people do) write Yacc type code in it and it makes for a good virtual assembler.
Why isn't Larry Wall using it for Perl 6?
Parrot is about as official for Perl 6 as it gets. Alison Randel (the project manager for Perl 6) is the author of the reference for Parrot (Perl 6 and Parrot Essentials). The first link on the Perl 6 website is to Parrot development site. The Perl 6 mailing list cover Parrot in every issue.
Larry's official statement of purpose addresses this multiple places, "Perl 6 is the next version of the Perl programming language. The project attempts to address the interpreter, the language, and the culture. The internals of the version 5 interpreter are so tangled that they hinder maintenance, thwart some new feature efforts, and scare off potential internals hackers. The language as of version 5 has some misfeatures that are a hassle to ongoing maintenance of the interpreter and of programs written in Perl. And finally, the entire Perl community is invited to participate in the design and implementation of Perl 6."
I don't know how much more official it can get.
Why isn't van Rossum backporting Python to it?
He is officially supporting it at this point and the python comnmunity is considering a permanent move to the platform. Right now everyone knows the first goal is to get Perl working completely so they are letting the Perl community be the test implementation.
Why don't I hear about it every week?
I have no clue. Probably because you don't follow news on dynamic language development.
While it is not open source itself, Kylix (i.e. cross platform Delphi) is a pretty good option for creating open source code, and kicks the shit out of VB in many areas.
I know it's not necessarily a perfect match (not working on Windows being a major flaw), but you should check out Gambas.
The Visual Studio editor cannot even do rectangular cut & paste, like Vim. Last time I checked it didn't autoindent code or integrate easily with CVS either. While Vim does.
Here's a link. It generates XML files with the UI that can be using by Python via libglade.
Your memory is apparently not as good as you think it is. Java was released as Java in early 1995.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
They're trojans really, not viruses, as they do not spread themselves, usually they act as a vector for installing malware. The most common one takes advantage of a bytecode verifier bug in the MS JVM, which Sun allowed MS to patch in release 3012 (distributed as a critical update to Windows since about 2 years ago), despite being ordered by a court not to continue to release updates to their JVM.
There was a vulnerability with 1.4.2_04 (or maybe _05?) and earlier JVMs recently, but I have yet to see an exploit in the wild. People are probably becoming alarmed because their virus detection is picking up a "virus", since the exploit code was downloaded from a porn or warez site they visited, but if they are running an up to date JVM, then the exploit code was not executed, so its mere presence in the cache is not cause for concern in itself.
because Sun made sure only the sun JRE is allowed to be called Java.
This is common Slashdot FUD, and is nonsense. A JRE can be called Java if it passes the compatibility tests. For example, HPs Java has no sun source code in, yet is called Java. There are other clean-room Java implementations that are also called Java - because they passed the tests.
And "wide Range" is probably something miniscule like four.
Windows 3.1 (IBM's 16-bit version), Win95/98/ME/XP/2000, Linux(RedHat/Debian), Solaris(2.6-2.9), Apple(OS 9/OS X), PalmOS, WinCE, DOS, Mobile phones...