FBI Demands Logs From Radical Website

sunbird writes "The details are as yet unclear due to a gag order, but apparently the FBI is once again demanding IP logs from dissident webservers. The sysadmin for flag.blackened.net, best known for hosting infoshop.org and the Anarchist FAQ has responded to an FBI request for server logs. Although he cannot reveal the details of the request due to the gag order, the sysadmin has issued an informal press release discussing his reasons for turning over the information. Slashdot articles on similar topics: (1) (2) (3)"

Comments

To me it looks like he's playing for publicity

[Sycraft-fu]

I mean I don't doubt he got the request, but his giving in and what follows is just so much drama:

"Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply."

No, actually, they won't. In a case like this they'll send you a subpoena asking for the infromation they want. If you fail to respond, the court will issue an order for your arrest, and a warrant allowing them to sieze the comptuers that should have the logs. When they come to arrest you, you won't get shot unless you do something stupid, like threaten them with a weapon. They'll just cuff you, read you your rights, and then gather what they came to get.

However, as you stated, he could have avoided the whole thing by just not keeping logs. I've run more than one server that doesn't keep logs, not for secrecy, but because it lacked a lot of storage and it just wasn't imporant to log what kind of access happened.

Re:To me it looks like he's playing for publicity

[georgewilliamherbert]

It seems inevitable that the computers would be seized. I don't think the investigators would take it at face value that the logs didn't exist without checking for themselves.

At least two ISP/free site admins I know have at some point or another been subpoenaed for logs, and in one case had no problem when they told the FBI that the logs they wanted the most had cycled off into deleted land because it had been more than 90 days. No systems or data were siezed. For data that was still available, printouts which were signed and dated by the sysadmin were all that was required, along with showing up to swear that those were accurate records.

The FBI are aware that computer records aren't kept forever in many cases, and the reality of retention. Just don't lie to them about how long you keep logs or delete them after they ask for them, because then you get the Martha Steward "guilty of lying during investigation" conviction.

I think that anyone doing anything in public, and internet sites are in public, should expect that law enforcement can and eventually will pay attention if they're doing stuff which might be illegal. So either don't do it in the first place or don't talk about it online AT ALL. If you do, don't be suprised if someone snitches and the logs are collected and you get busted. Duh. Don't talk about it in bars or with strangers on the bus either.

Black Flag

[AppyPappy]

I am absolutely shocked that the FBI doesn't already own and control the site to troll for anarchists. Everytime I see a site that preaches radicalism, my first reaction is "Fed".

I have a friend who worked undercover investigating racist groups and he said he would look around the room and try to figure out who was connected to which agency. For all they knew, they ALL were cops.

Re:Black Flag

[garcia]

I am absolutely shocked that the FBI doesn't already own and control the site to troll for anarchists. Everytime I see a site that preaches radicalism, my first reaction is "Fed".

He also doesn't sound much like an anarchist when he speaks like he does. If I were part of the community he supported I would be terribly disappointed in his actions:

I'm under court order not to speak about specifics and have my attorney trying to find out what the maximum penalty for disclosure really is. I hate to have to keep my mouth shut in areas where the Gestapo is involved, but I also have to weigh things against the overall security of flag and it's subdomains and also the wellbeing of my family.

So he believes in working within a system he doesn't believe should exist? While I understand that anarchists can have moral beliefs I just can't imagine that he would be so tolerant of the way the system is built to just put up with it.

I have called numerous friends nationwide, anarchists and otherwise whose opinions I respect and who I know will be honest and forthwith in their opinions to ask them how I should proceed. The unanimous consensus is that I comply with the wishes of the FBI and provide the IP addresses responsible. The only point of discussion, really, has been whether or not I should reveal the specific information in violation of two court orders.

Oh come on, maybe Dave is a wimpy anarchist but the rest of them too? Perhaps even the extreme leftists are swinging away from their roots and becoming more moderate.

They are proven murderers and automatons for the state who will blindly follow any order to kill or disrupt without question.

And yet he runs a site that harbors anarchists and he is doing everything the FBI says? Who's the automaton that is blindly following orders from a government agency which he believes should not exist?

It is by far the most agonizing decision I've been faced with in relation to my anarchist opinions.

"opinions", quite an interesting word choice. I would expect an individual running a site that harbors some subdomains that are being investigated by the FBI would hold more than just "opinions".

Re:Choice bits from the "press release"

[sTalking_Goat]

I've known some smart leftists, I've also known one or two smart right-wingers.

This guy doesn't seem very smart.

1. He stupidly keeps logs

2. He caves under a subpeana

3. And then to cover his ass he plays "the spooks are going to kill me if I don't co-operate card."

What good are you to your cause if you aren't willing to risk incarceration or bodily harm for it? Anyone who tries to change the way of the world ends up dead, he should have kept his mouth shut if he wasn't willing to risk that.

If I were one of his comrades I'd be very pissed at him.

Re:Press Release

[whoda]

Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner, I have to choose option #2

So, what you really mean is that while you preach a damn good sermon, you're really sleeping with the devil, and the choir can go to hell for all you care.

Re:Aww geez

[deacon]

The amusing irony, of course, is that if US police did behave like the NKVD(Gestapo? Amateurs.) for example, we would be saved from having to listen to this wingnuts paranoid ranting.

In addition, the trains would run on time, there would be no homeless (these would be in labor camps), and we would be standing in line to buy toilet paper.

I suppose anarchists are like canarys in coal mines: as long as you hear them twittering and flapping around in their self-imposed cages, freedom of speech is safe.

Re:Press Release

[Mr. Slippery]

So, what you really mean is that while you preach a damn good sermon, you're really sleeping with the devil, and the choir can go to hell for all you care.

If someone were to rob me at gunpoint, and I choose to comply and give them my money rather than have my brains scrambled by a bullet, does that mean I'm "sleeping with the devil"? Should I instead make some sort of principled stand about my right to not be robbed?

Hell no. Any competent and sane self-defense instructor will tell you to give the nice man with the gun your wallet. Same principle applies whether the thug with the gun has a badge or not.

We all have to make choices about what's worth risking life and freedom fighting for and what's not. Like your pocket cash, server logs fall into the later category.

Re:Press Release

[SatanicPuppy]

It's always the way of it.

There was a big protest at my university during my time there, and during the course of the protest, they blocked a major throughfare to all traffic for an extended period.

It goes without saying this wasn't a liscensed protest.

Turns out there was an ambulance tied up in the traffic jam, and all the ringleaders of the protest got charged with felony obstruction of emergency vehicles.

They went from revolutionaries to crying children in the blink of an eye. The charges were upheld, and they were all convicted. Sentences were light, but a felony on your record isn't pretty.

If you play the game, you have to accept the consequences. And they can be nasty.