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FBI Demands Logs From Radical Website
sunbird writes "The details are as yet unclear due to a gag order, but apparently the FBI is once again demanding IP logs from dissident webservers. The sysadmin for flag.blackened.net, best known for hosting infoshop.org and the Anarchist FAQ has responded to an FBI request for server logs. Although he cannot reveal the details of the request due to the gag order, the sysadmin has issued an informal press release discussing his reasons for turning over the information. Slashdot articles on similar topics: (1) (2) (3)"
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I just can't understand why someone running what is apparently a popular site would ever keep logs for more than a very short amount of time?
2. Comply with the wishes of the FBI, provide the IP addresses, and count on the fact that I will catch a lot of heat and hatred from my comrades in the anarchist movement worldwide.
I'd comply and say that there are no log files as they are immediately dumped to
Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner, I have to choose option #2. The people who have foolishly compromised us all will shoulder the burden for their selfish actions. Frankly folks, they know better - we all know better.
Running a website that is viewed as a "threat" to the government in which the servers reside should have taught the admin (Dave) to know better and not to keep logs of any kind past a short period of time (minutes?) so that a webstats program could be run and the data incorporated and then removed. I don't see why this wasn't followed. I mean my website only averages 1000 hits (not even unique visits) daily over a month and it takes webalizer about three seconds to do what it needs to do.
But, the real point is that I feel like a coward and traitor to my comrades, even in the face of what is essentially a coerced decision. I'm the last one who will criticize or disagree with any of you who want to deride me. I'm also aware that this will probably cause quite a few of you to lose faith in me, flag, and it's subdomains. This can't be avoided and it's something I weighed into my decision.
Oh it could have been avoided if the admin took the time to make sure that no such logs were being kept. They can only subpoena what physically exists.
Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply.
Someone that is so against government control and intrusion should have known that this inevitability would occur at some point. Why didn't they take the time to protect themselves especially when they (and/or their family) could be harmed by the very people they host discussions for who could become enraged by their actions?
FBI investigating incidents on subdomains hosted by flag.blackened.net.
OK folks, here's the real deal as far as I can share it legally at the moment. Consider it as a press release if you wish and feel free to distribute it for whatever reason you deem necessary.
I'm under court order not to speak about specifics and have my attorney trying to find out what the maximum penalty for disclosure really is. I hate to have to keep my mouth shut in areas where the Gestapo is involved, but I also have to weigh things against the overall security of flag and it's subdomains and also the wellbeing of my family.
I have been ordered to submit IP info on two separate incidents having to do with subdomains hosted on flag. Both of these are in regard to claimed or threatened responsibility for acts of propaganda by the deed. Both incidents involve topics which are completely out of line for consideration here at flag and really I can only view them in two ways. Either people are simply ignorant about the murderous history of the FBI, or, as is my belief in one case, they are trying to make flag vulnerable to government intrusion.
At this point let me say, in all honesty and conviction, that if I end up dead by strange means - suicide, overdose, drunk driving accident (I never, ever, ever drink and drive), "accidental" gunshot to the back of the head while sleeping ala Fred Hampton, car jacking, or anything else reasonably suspicious, contact the FBI in Chico, California for more details.
I have called numerous friends nationwide, anarchists and otherwise whose opinions I respect and who I know will be honest and forthwith in their opinions to ask them how I should proceed. The unanimous consensus is that I comply with the wishes of the FBI and provide the IP addresses responsible. The only point of discussion, really, has been whether or not I should reveal the specific information in violation of two court orders.
Really, I am not left with much of a choice. Here are my two choices as I see them:
1. Do not comply with the wishes of the FBI. This will most likely lead to the seizure of flag and a compromise of all the sites and information online. It will probably also lead to me being imprisoned, I would guess. I personally do not fear this, but I am the sole support for my wife and infant daughter. There can be no doubt we would probably lose our home as a result.
2. Comply with the wishes of the FBI, provide the IP addresses, and count on the fact that I will catch a lot of heat and hatred from my comrades in the anarchist movement worldwide.
Though it pains me to comply with the State in any manner, I have to choose option #2. The people who have foolishly compromised us all will shoulder the burden for their selfish actions. Frankly folks, they know better - we all know better.
I was first contacted by the Oakland FBI. Many of you know their history. We are talking COINTELPRO for real - not a perceived or mythical fear. They are proven murderers and automatons for the state who will blindly follow any order to kill or disrupt without question. Read the history of their disinformation campaign against the panthers if you don't believe me. The panther comic book which they completed and distributed, the fake letters between Huey and Eldridge, the fires of hatred and murder they faked and inflamed between the panthers and the US or "united slaves" which led to the murder of Bunchy Carter and John Higgins in L.A., the list goes on and on.
But, the real point is that I feel like a coward and traitor to my comrades, even in the face of what is essentially a coerced decision. I'm the last one who will criticize or disagree with any of you who want to deride me. I'm also aware that this will probably cause quite a few of you to lose faith in me, flag, and it's subdomains. This can't be avoided and it's something I weighed into my decision. I post this mainly to inform you all and give you opportunity to make your own decisions as to whether I've handl
Either it's the start of the fourth reich, tracking down all the remaining Jedi^Wfreethinkers and killing them, or it's a normal subpoena request for a normal investigation.
I'll go ask Occam and get back to you.
The best way to make the FBI happy is to slashdot the site. Great job! Now I have time to hide my cyanide in the subway rails!
So all those sites dedicated to the mullet rocking, Oakley blade wearing (with the pink arms) lifted Toyota minitruck driving, Coors light drinking Americans from the 80's are in big trouble!
Rad.
Totally.
Dude.
That's my armchair proposal for a better America.
--Mike--
chop down a tree you've lubricated with liquid waste products while standing next to it, and cut it into short two foot segments (or half-meter for the rest of the world).
Get a poker, bend it so it spells IP, then start a fire with the sawdust and stick the poker in.
Heat up the poker till it glows, using tree branches and some short tree segments and scrap. Then brand each tree segment with the symbol IP from the poker. Reheat as needed if the poker cools.
Deliver tree segments, aka "Logs", that you can truthfully say are "IP Logs", to Secret Service.
Mission Accomplished! You are now a terrorrorrorrist.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I mean I don't doubt he got the request, but his giving in and what follows is just so much drama:
"Freedom of speech does not exist, don't try to test it. They will come bust down your door - for real - point a gun to your head and pull the trigger if you refuse to comply."
No, actually, they won't. In a case like this they'll send you a subpoena asking for the infromation they want. If you fail to respond, the court will issue an order for your arrest, and a warrant allowing them to sieze the comptuers that should have the logs. When they come to arrest you, you won't get shot unless you do something stupid, like threaten them with a weapon. They'll just cuff you, read you your rights, and then gather what they came to get.
However, as you stated, he could have avoided the whole thing by just not keeping logs. I've run more than one server that doesn't keep logs, not for secrecy, but because it lacked a lot of storage and it just wasn't imporant to log what kind of access happened.
I am absolutely shocked that the FBI doesn't already own and control the site to troll for anarchists. Everytime I see a site that preaches radicalism, my first reaction is "Fed".
I have a friend who worked undercover investigating racist groups and he said he would look around the room and try to figure out who was connected to which agency. For all they knew, they ALL were cops.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
Notice they aren't after him, they just wants logs about others that have come there.
The problem is, with extremist sites like that, you'll get some who are a little more extremist than most. Maybe you are a group of anarchists that really do believe in no government. You believe in real, total anarchy. However, you don't believe in using violence to being that about, you aren't THAT extreme. Government will leave you be, you aren't breaking any laws.
Well guess what? Sooner or later someone who IS extreme to the point that they want to use violence will show up. That will draw the intrest of the government. It is illegal to try to violently overthrow the government, make no mistake.
Well if noe or more of these people hangs around your site, you shouldn't be supprised if the government wants information on them.
Now maybe this is just harassment by the FBI, but I'd actually bet not. There are plenty of sites out there that are anti-government. I'm betting this is a real request to try and find some people for an investigation. Maybe it's just fishing, but still. The operators drama aside, it sounds like all they did was ask for the IPs that are behind some posts. I don't really see the problem.
You know, what actually worries me more than the FBI's asking for server logs is the fact that (seemingly) every time something like this happens, a "gag order" is placed on the affected parties. It's a serious breach of the constitutional rights people enjoy; not only the right to free speech is affected, but also things like due process. A state which gathers evidence in secret is well on its way to a state that holds trials in secret, and THAT certainly is something none of us (here on Slashdot, anyway) want, no matter how we may disagree on other matters.
And of course, there is the fact that (like always) there does not even seem to be a good reason to place a gag order, short of "people aren't gonna like this and we want to avoid bad press"; I can see why the FBI wants to err on the (for them) "safe" side, but I think it's a dangerous path to take, for the reasons described above.
Oh well. I guess it just shows again that as a webmaster, you should not keep logs for longer than is absolutely necessary, and that as a user, you should use Tor or a similar tool to anonymise your browsing if you're visiting political websites (I wonder if Slashdot counts as one).
quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
This guy doesn't seem very smart.
1. He stupidly keeps logs
2. He caves under a subpeana
3. And then to cover his ass he plays "the spooks are going to kill me if I don't co-operate card."
What good are you to your cause if you aren't willing to risk incarceration or bodily harm for it? Anyone who tries to change the way of the world ends up dead, he should have kept his mouth shut if he wasn't willing to risk that.
If I were one of his comrades I'd be very pissed at him.
My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...
If you're an extremist (left or right), you should expect that eventually you will receive an extreme response.
Why?
Latewire
In addition, the trains would run on time, there would be no homeless (these would be in labor camps), and we would be standing in line to buy toilet paper.
I suppose anarchists are like canarys in coal mines: as long as you hear them twittering and flapping around in their self-imposed cages, freedom of speech is safe.
So, you should be able to speak your mind, as long as your ideas aren't "extreme"?
I couldn't disagree with you more.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Google "COINTELPRO" for a little dose of reality.
If you don't want to.... It can be summed up by saying the United Staes Government was proven to have used eviction, job loss, break ins, vandalism, grand jury subpoenas, false arrests, frame- ups, and physical violence.
The above and more (according to thier own documents leaked to the press, and later further dug up under freedom of information) were threatened, instigated or directly employed, in an effort to frighten activists and disrupt their movements. Government agents either concealed their involvement or fabricated a legal pretext. In the case of the Black and Native American movements, these assaults, including outright political assassinations, were so extensive and vicious that they amounted to terrorism on the part of the government.
Congress admitted as much and shut down the COINTELPRO (Counter-Intelligence Program)after the leaked documents went public.
I'm sure it's cozy in that utopia though.....
The objections?:
-requirement for internal travel documents "your papers please"
-"blacklisting" dissidents (no-fly list?)
-secret searches (Brandon Mayfield in Portland?)
-forced medical procedures (or lack of care)
-voting irregularities
-lack of "due process" (Guantanamo Bay, sending suspects to egypt for "questioning")
-"watchers" at libraries, places of public assembly
But these days, it seems the US government is a bigger violator of human rights than the soviets ever were. A noble experiment in democracy destroyed by an arrogant few who have constructed a system to protect themselves and their petty fiefdoms from the citizenry who demand accountability.
Where I used to be a flag-waving patriot when I was a USMC Fighter Pilot, I no longer feel that way. I look at our own government as more dangerous than Saddam Hussein, Osama BinLaden, North Korea, Iran and the rest.
I look at virtually every government project in the same way I look at Saddam's statues of himself...an exercise in self-aggrandisment for those behind the project, that if it benefits even a single citizen, it's by accident, not by intent.
I almost believe the "conspiracy theorists" who claim that the government knew about Oklahoma City and 9-11 ahead of time....because if the terrorists had instead hit Congress, the FBI, the IRS and the Supreme Court, it would be hard to rally people against them. They could have killed 2 birds with one stone.
It really is sad to think this nation has deteriorated so far and that citizens have allowed their rights to be eroded to such an extent that they have all but been rendered incapable of making any meaningful change in government short of violence.
Russia today is stunning proof that the crooks and gangsters are more honest and reliable than the politicians. Maybe we need a dose of their sort of revolution in this country?
If something doesn't happen here, instead of being like 1970s Soviet Union, US citizens will end up being treated by this government like jews in 1940's Germany. Other than the ovens, little separates us from that today.
Because of the gag order, it seems he can't say what the people whose IP addresses the FBI is demanding did.
I've said it before in a previous post and I'll say it again. "freedom of Speech" is not absolute. Just check your local noise ordinances or "disturbing the peace laws". Let's not forget the following forms of illegal speech...
It's sad that this guy is the one who has to pony up info to the FBI, in violation of his principles, but the safe harbor laws only extend so far. Just because he is granted certain protections from legal liability over what happens in his public forum, that does not mean he is exempt from subpoena to turn over information about them if they should do something illegal in his public forum.
Now, if the gag order comes off, and the matter seems totally spurious, then it seems more like harrassment by the FBI. But if what these users did was pretty f'ed up, then such is life. Responsibility goes hand in hand with rights and privileges.
- Greg
Start a happiness pandemic
We do not live on a playground. Freedom of speech is not something that exists only in the sandbox. When we say something really mean, the state is not a watchful parent who should step in and pull us aside for a stern talking to.
That's the attitude a lot of people seem to take. "Oh, they were playing for real, so the FBI had to make them stop."
Liberty is either respected or it is not. The realpolitik guys will say "only when it's expedient". The libertarians will say, "all the time regardless". The Democrats and Republicans will say, "as long as you play nice", and that's the government we've got.
The government has to follow the rules all the time. They can't break them just because we're playing "for keeps"*.
*though of course actually they can, and do, and people expect them to. so they'll keep doing it.
In a free and democratic society, if the government violates your rights, you can go to the press to draw attention to the issue. You are also allowed to give enough information so that people can come to their own conclusions.