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VIA Epia SP 13000 Review
Nehemiah writes "Epiacenter.com just published a review on the brand-new VIA Epia SP 13000 mini-itx mainboard.
It's the first VIA Epia board with the CN400 chipset and, together with the new epiOS Linux distribution that is announced in the review, it seems to have a very good performance during MPEG2/MPEG4 playback."
That is because the chip design hasn't changed much at all between the 533 and the 1300. In order to clock it higher with the same design and manufacturing techniques, the processor needs more power, and therefore leaks more as heat.
The VIA EPIA MS10000 Fanless is the 1 GHz fanless board that is available at mini-box.com. These have acutally been available for quite some time. Guess you haven't looked too hard for it.
Profanity is the language all programmers know best.
Or, more to the point what the hell is it anyway?
If it is what I think it is, which is a distro that is taylored toward EPIA, why make a whole distro and not just a tarball of linux drivers and tools?
>Why aren't we seeing 1 GHz+ fanless systems in the
>Mini-ITX form factor?
That's a very good question. I've been on a quest for some years now, for a system that can be mounted in a shallow 19" rack form factor, that has no fan whatsoever but enough power to run audio applications. I can't even find good compromises, although I make do with my Antec Sonata, Zalman coolers, etc.
Shuttles are *way* too noisy, which was upsetting because they were recommended to me on the basis of them being very quiet, so I bought one, yuck.
Dell desktop machines are surprisingly quiet, I've discovered.
The Antec Sonata case is still not quiet enough to be called "silent" but it's pretty good. The hardest part of putting my system together has been finding a fanless 1.5v AGP video card. ASUS PxPN00 boards have no fan on the bridge chip, which is nice. Seagate SATA drives with the SNXXXX model numbers are pretty quiet, especially in the Antec case.
But as far as Mini-ITX, except for the 533 C3 boards, they all have fans.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Not designed with longevity in mind? What are you talking about? I'm still running the cheapest piece of crap I could find four years ago. An entire system (minus the video card, I reused my Voodoo3 2000) for only 200 bucks and it still works. My mother still has her fully working PC from back in 1997, without problems (although she's upgrading this month because she wants something a bit faster).
And anything newer than that, how do you know it won't last? For that matter, do you not realize that most of the components are identical? Apple doesn't usually make their own hardware, they buy it, and they buy it from the same people the PC manufacturers buy it from.
Stop spreading stupidity.
[grammar Nazi mode=ON]
From Merriam-Webster online:
[/grammar Nazi]
Thanks for the warning, I'll stay away from them.
MPEG2/4 playback is the first benchmark any informed computer buyer should look at.
proscribe, 1: To denounce or condemn.
Here's a quick hint for you, don't use words you can't spell. Maybe you meant to say prescribe, to set down as a rule or guide; enjoin, to order the use of (a medicine or other treatment).
Now that I've gotten that over with: Mac minis are expensive and proprietary. The memory is not even a user-serviceable part, in terms of your warranty. (Look it up!) The ONLY good thing about it is the cool form factor. It has very limited expansion (even down to having only 1 1394 port) and is only $499 with the most limited hardware and no peripherals. If you want a machine for the looks, buy a mini. However, most of the software that most people want to run out there runs either on Linux, in which case there is no benefit to the Mini beyond the aesthetic, or on Windows, in which case the Mini can't help you.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
epia800 is fanless, and some Epia1000s are fanless.
You can also get a fanless 30W PSU for both. 30W is enough to drive the motherboard, the cpu, and a harddrive.
Why oh why on these new small form factor devices do they insist on keeping legacy ports such as serial or the old PS2 style mouse and keyboard? Either make it small and get rid of them or put something useful such as firewire there instead.
How does one tell what voltage an AGP card is? What do you expect of the AGP card in terms of speed? Radeon 9200 cards seem to be available in fanless form. I have an ATI branded 9500 which has a fan that is practically inaudible, to me at least.
I do agree Shuttles are pretty noisy. They went to the trouble to using a heat pipe system and then attach a noisy fan to the exhaust end of the heat pipe and call it "quiet", while I can easily hear it ten feet away.
I think the Mac mini is pretty quiet, maybe not quiet enough for audio use though.
Maybe your next best bet is to assemble a hush box to put a computer into.
You can get 1000 MHz VIA machines that are fanless, and you should be able to replace the heatsink on the 1200 MHz and probably these 1300 MHz CPUs with larger ones to make them passively cooled.
If it has the "Eden" or "E" name in it, it is fanless. Pretty easy browsing once you notice this. It is not explained anywhere visible on the VIA sites though.
But as far as Mini-ITX, except for the 533 C3 boards, they all have fans.
This is simply not true. Besides, you can make them fanless by applying a Zalman northbridge cooler (as seen on the net). I haven't done any burn in testing with mine though. One hint: putting them in a wooden enclosure like a wine-box does not do any good. If you need to do stupid things like that you *need* a fan. And a fire-alarm (though you can get the motherboard/cpu to shut down, it has temperature sensors). Yes, I tried.
I've got a new 1Ghz VIA in place right now, only fan is a teeny one that makes less noise than the drives, etc.
Sure, dust is a consideration over time, but even without the fan too much dust tends to impair the heatsinks' dissipation rate as well...
I have installed Linux on a dozen Mini-ITX boards during the past two years. I love the low power consumption, and the low price.
But, by just about any standard (MPEG playback, video performance, processor speed, form factor size), the Mac Mini beats the Mini-ITX hands down. Okay, I put nicer hard drives in the Mini-ITX boxes than I get in the Mac Mini.
After using both systems as desktop PCs, I can say that the Mac Mini feels like a Ferrari, while the Mini-ITX boxes feel like a Ford Focus. Apart from the fact I actually *like* the Gnome desktop better than OS X, I can still use the Mini to run all of my favorite Unix apps. And, unlike the VIA Mini-ITX boards, where there's a ton of hardware that I can't get to work right (CLE-266 chipset with MPEG decoding), everything on the Mac Mini JUST WORKS.
I don't know. I'm thinking my days running Mini-ITX boxes is over. The Mac Mini has really won my heart, and I can't see why anyone wouldn't consider it for their small form-factor computing needs.
I'm a bit tempted by the promise of a Linux distro tailor-made for the EPIAs, but I kind of have a distro (OS X) tailor made for my current-favorite SFF box.
Thank you.
:).
The mirror concept is similar to (but different from) mirrordot. Hosted servers cost bucks (this isn't sitting on the end of a dsl line to my mom's basement
However, unlike merely copying somebody else's work and presenting as my own, I'm providing a service to reach sites that are responding slowly when slashdotted.
It's all still very experimental.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
I used to have a fanless Radeon 9600. Sapphire makes it, try Newegg.
"The advanced societies of the future will be driven by competing systems of psychopathology." -JG Ballard
Quick correction Re: Mac Mini and memory upgrade. Opening the case does not void the warranty. Also, installing memory does not void the warranty if you use an Apple approved memory part.
I'm in agreement overall with your assesment, if you are comparing the mini with a general purpose computer. On the other hand, I think the mini should be viewed primarily as no more than a particularly powerful console box.
I honestly wonder what would happen if
"Don't worry about the problems you have in mathematics, I assure you mine are much greater." - Einstein c.1919
I've built four fanless VIA boxes - not Mini-ITX, though.
I got VIA 866 MHz cpus, topped 'em with a respectable sized heatsink (with fans) on a full size 370 motherboard, mounted each in mid-size tower case with a seagate barracuda 80 gig drive and a 150 Watt power supply. Now assuming that the CPU might get enough cooling from convective air flow in the case, and that the power supply would never be taxed (at full speed, the system draws maybe 30 Watts), I wired in a switch to cut off the cpu and power-supply fans if so desired.
Once built, I ran some screensavers that pushed the cpu to 100% usage for eight hours (using slackware bootable cd) with no fans whatsoever. All the boxes survived without problems.
Since building them (2-3 years ago now), I eventually used one as a firewall/router - running openBSD. That one suffered a cpu/motherboard burnout after ~4 months of running 24/7 fanless. I dropped the hard-drive in a sibling, and left the fans running - up for ~6 months now without incident.
Another is currently being used to do audio recording with a Demudi install. Having burned out one of the boxes, I am more cautious, running the fans except when recording with microphones. With the fans off and ~6 feet between the box and the microphones, thermal noise from the pre-amps and electromagnetic noise from the radar station on the mountain is louder than the noise from the spinning barracuda.
The 866 MHz VIA is fast enough to handle about 12-14 raw tracks in ardour before running out of cycles (without extra effects). I plan to do final mixing and mastering on a faster dual-pentium box once all the raw tracking has been done.
This may not be adequate for a living-room media center, but it works for me as an audio workstation. I thought others might want to know about it.
Well, well, well, another nerd on Slashdot complains about its editors but reads anyway. How is this "interesting" anymore? There should be a mod category called "expected". ;p
> How does one tell what voltage an AGP card is? You go by the gaps in the end of the AGP card that slides into the AGP slot. See http://www.ertyu.org/~steven_nikkel/agpcompatibili ty.html
I created a mythtv box from an EPIA MII12000 (1.2GHz). I put it into a georgeous Silverstone LC06 case. I switched the fans with silent ones, chose silent optical/HD drives. The end result is just awesome. In fact the 12000 is way overpowered for what I am doing - thanks to onboard encoding in the Hauppauge PVR card I use, and decoding in the EPIA motherboard - and the CPU sits at 10% most of the time. The 800MHz CPU would have been a better pick, and then I would have had less heat = 1 less and slower fans.
Thats the good side...
Behind the scenes there were months of trying to debug random crashes. There is a known issue in the DMA on the MII12000 and others. VIA have refused (scroll to bottom) to respond, even on bulletin boards where they often frequent. They know about the problem because they have fixed in windows driver updates released late last year.
There was a happy ending, for me anyway. If I rebuilt the kernel with CPUFREQ off and only i386 code (a real pain with Fedora Core 3 because it defaults to i686) then everything seems stable.
But I have serious reservations about their support for linux, and would have reservations about dealing with them again.
http://www.hushtechnologies.net/ has lots to choose from with no fans. I would have paid the price premium a couple years ago if I'd known how noisy my Shuttle would be.
here's a quick hint for you: don't offer 'facts' if you can't check out your facts first before blathering on.
about Apple's warranty:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=30
and http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25
of course, that doesn't mean they _want_ you to do it; the case is difficult to open but it can be done if you're patient and careful: http://www.russellbeattie.com/notebook/1008276.ht
[rant] it's NOT just about looks: the mini target audience is for "adders" and "switchers" who want a computer that just works, i.e. they want their software to work - iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie, iDVD, GarageBand, Safari/Mozilla, as opposed to learning how to be a systems admin to care for their Windows computer. sure you can get a PC for less, but then you still have to buy XP and all the other software. and it's still XP. They're buying the whole ball of wax for the "computing experience", a consistent, friendly, useful experience, so your statement, "...most of the software that most people want to run out there runs either on Linux..." is crap, since there's no decent equivalent to the iLife suite in Linux(or Windows, provide links if you can.) and due to the nature of Open Source, there will be differences(some significant) in UI for linux apps.
don't forget, all macs COME WITH iLife - you don't have to buy it, install it and learn five different ways to do the same thing(i'm thinking of the OS file browser provided to all apps and navigating directories in Explorer)...
you do non-technical readers/users a disservice by not providing proof of your statements - and your lack of experience with the Mac shows. the mac "experience" is something you realize when the computer and the software don't get in the way of what you're doing. i've got a dual-boot windowsXP/gentoo machine i built myself and several Macs. I've been using, programming, designing and destroying software professionally since 1985; i've used punch cards, TTYs, mainframes, supercomputers, PCs, i've designed my own user interfaces when there wasn't even X/OpenGL(remember the Sun1? the DEC Gigi? character graphics on a vt100? i do.) - so i have a lot of choices, my opinion? the user experience in windows is abysmal(sp?) when compared to the mac, so i'll take the mac every time. when you can get a complete, consistent set of programs that do what is included in iLife for Linux/FOSS, it _will_ be a great day indeed. until then you're saddled with inconsistent applications user-interfaces for both linux and windows. ( p.s. i like MythTV, Gimp(especially with the recent UI hacks...), blender, firefox/thunderbird and use fluxbox, but they're just short of the integration achieved on the mac.)[/rant]
here's a review of the mini that i feel is fair and balanced:
http://www.sfftech.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=659
to sum up the mini-memory issue: there are _many_ reviews elsewhere and it has been discussed at length in many forums that you can install your own memory, it's just if you break the lid doing it they won't replace it.
back on-topic: the EPIA series are able performers if you're not a demanding user(the dual cpu board displayed at Cebit looks promising); OK, yet another flavor of linux, why?.
a great place for EPIA info is: URL:http://mini-itx.com//
"...that's as white as it gets; all the bits are on..."
The Epia SP is okay, but it isn't exactly a big step up from its precedessors. The Epia DP is a far more interesting beast - dual processors extends the potential uses of these boards much further than a clock speed or chipset upgrade.
I'll also believe them when I see them: despite much fanfare, the Nano-ITX boards are still largely vapourware.
I'm using FreeBSD 5.X on an old EPIA 5000 board with VIA VT6102 Rhine II chipset and the vr driver. Yes, I get sometimes vr0: rx packet lost messages on the console. This was only a problem for me while using NFS in UDP mode (I'm running diskless, so NFS reliability is pretty important!). Switching to TCP NFS solved all problems for me. The problem is not so bad as it sounds.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.