Slashdot Mirror
Jon Johansen Interviewed
wuzfuzzy writes "Depending on your point of view, Jon Lech Johansen is either your hero or adversary. To the copyright industry, Jon Lech Johansen has been a detriment to their policy of control since the advent of DeCSS (Decrypt Content Scrambling System.) To those who cherish freedom, he has been a pillar of hope in an age when DRM (Digital Rights Management) threatens to overtake mainstream media. After two trials, the courts finally ruled in Jon's favor. However, there is much more to Jon Lech Johansen than DeCSS. In this interview, Slyck hopes to bring to light the many facets of Mr. Johansen, and the numerous projects he is involved with."
Seems a reasonable enough feller. I thought the university comment was quite interesting.
...I remember the days when everyone loved this guy, that was, of course, until he applied his skills to slashdot's favorite purveyor of DRM.
When your DVD player tells you "This operation is not allowed" when you try to skip commercials, it becomes pretty clear that DRM really stands for Digital Restrictions Management.
Exactly! When I buy a DVD (not rent) I expect to have complete control over how I view that content. My DVD player has no right to restrict me from fastfowarding through any part of that media.
Any DVD I purchase that does not allow me to fastfoward any part is immediately ripped, stripped, and burned. That's my right. Thank you Jon!
I thought we had a great Ivy League candidate, since he said he want to Yale. Then he told me his name was Yon Yohansen.
Oh, wow. How did I screw that up. Jesus, where's my "Take that post back and never let anyone else see it" button.
I think this would not be a good time to reveal I've a higher degree in Mathematics.
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
5 bytes covers 1,099,511,627,776 possibilities, which is a little harder.
It rather depends on how difficult it is to test each possibility.
I guess today is a passable day to die.
Right On Jon! I already paid for the DVD I don't see why I should be forced to sit though adverts after that.
Just let me navigate the content of my new DVD in the manner I choose thanks very much!
It is just a pity that the studios/player manufacturers are not going to listen to the public on this matter.
Slyck.com Interviews Jon Lech Johansen
April 4, 2005
Thomas Mennecke
Depending on your point of view, Jon Lech Johansen is either your hero or adversary. To the copyright industry, Jon Lech Johansen has been a detriment to their policy of control since the advent of DeCSS (Decrypt Content Scrambling System.) To those who cherish freedom, he has been a pillar of hope in an age when DRM (Digital Rights Management) threatens to overtake mainstream media.
Jon Lech Johansen became well known for his role in the development of DeCSS. Jon spent 3 long years in the Norwegian courts proving his innocence. The American movie industry pressured the Norwegian Economic Crime Unit to press charges against Jon Lech Johansen in 2000 for allegedly bypassing the CSS copy protection on DVDs.
After two trials, the courts finally ruled in Jon's favor. However, there is much more to Jon Lech Johansen than DeCSS. In this interview, Slyck hopes to bring to light the many facets of Mr. Johansen, and the numerous projects he is involved with.
Describe your role in the development of DeCSS. Was is a group effort or were you the mastermind behind it?
DeCSS was written by 3 people: a German developer, a Dutch developer and myself. The reverse engineering was done by the German.
From time to time I see people repeat the claim that DeCSS was only made possible because a DVD player manufacturer forgot to "protect" their DVD player. This is a myth that is perpetuated by people who don't understand how computers work. Code obfuscation only slows down reverse engineering, it doesn't block it.
What was the motivation behind creating DeCSS?
The motivation was being able to play DVDs the way we want to. I don't like being forced to use a specific operating system or a specific player to watch movies (or listen to music.) Nor do I like being forced to watch commercials. When your DVD player tells you "This operation is not allowed" when you try to skip commercials, it becomes pretty clear that DRM really stands for Digital Restrictions Management.
Did you ever expect the level of legal entanglements; and for it to become as popular as it is today?
No and no.
How difficult was it do break the CSS encryption? What did it take to break the encryption?
Technically DeCSS didn't break CSS. Breaking a crypto algorithm requires revealing and/or exploiting a method that's faster than brute force. DeCSS simply implemented CSS the same way as a normal DVD player.
CSS was however broken by Frank Andrew Stevenson: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/FrankStevenson/ index.html. Many DVD decryption tools today exploit the weaknesses in CSS that he revealed.
Another myth is that DeCSS is illegal because it uses a "stolen" key. A CSS key is 5 bytes. How anyone can think that it's possible to "steal" 5 bytes is beyond me. 5 bytes do not have any protection under copyright law because it's not an original work. It's probably possible for 5 bytes to be protected under trade secret law, but CSS hasn't been a trade secret since DeCSS was released and mirrored all over the net. Is someone who names their child "Frank" (5 bytes) stealing Frank's name? It's absurd.
Was there at any point during the DeCSS trials when you felt you were in serious trouble, or were you confident throughout that you would emerge victorious?
I was confident throughout.
What was the expression(s) on the face of the movie industry when you were finally acquitted?
The MPAA's (or rather, the MPA, which is the international arm of the MPAA) Norwegian lawyer was present for most of the first trial. I don't remember if he was present when the judgment was handed down, but if he was, he was probably wearing his standard grumpy look.
For the acquitt
OK. You can stop replying to this now.
I'm a cretin.
OP
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Of course, being Finnish, I'd have a greater chance of getting to first base with the latter.
From the interview:
People who claim that the iTMS DRM is a "good compromise" have naively bought into the impending doom propaganda.
He has a point - the DRM that comes with iTunes is already creeping up in restrictions from the point at which you first agreed to it. Perhaps you should take another look and think again if it is really worth it to you?
I remember all the comments here about how no one would buy anything with DRM attached... but then it turns out that yes, most of Slashdot indeed would buy it willingly. How very dissapointing.
Beep beep.
the most interesting thing he's done recently in my opinion was hacking the VC-1 codec from SMPTE into VLC. Something that provides real hope for linux and mac users trying to view WMV9 encoded video content
not to belittle the rest of his accomplishments, but I feel this one has the greatest possible advantage in legitimate terms
Business Voyeur
#1 Lets nominated him for sainthood in the house of GNU. #2 Lets string him up high. Or both? Saints are usually dead, after all.
You're looking for quotes? See my journal.
In my personal opinion, he isn't a freedom fighter. He's a guy whose making it harder to get the record labels to embrace online downloading as their business model.
Why should tracks I buy from an online music store be more restrictive in what I can do with them than ones that come on red book Audio CDs?
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
This paragraph struck me as odd:
"Another myth is that DeCSS is illegal because it uses a "stolen" key. A CSS key is 5 bytes. How anyone can think that it's possible to "steal" 5 bytes is beyond me. 5 bytes do not have any protection under copyright law because it's not an original work. It's probably possible for 5 bytes to be protected under trade secret law, but CSS hasn't been a trade secret since DeCSS was released and mirrored all over the net. Is someone who names their child "Frank" (5 bytes) stealing Frank's name? It's absurd."
If those 5 bytes are a key to unlock something.. ehm.. I think comparing that to someones first name is a bit weird. If someone has my credit-card code, I would say they stole my code.
For the record, as I do not want this thing to be flooded with "Great , go ahead and support DRM", I'm 100% against DRM. They have been spending a thousand times more on DRM-development than what they claim they have lost by illegal copies. DRM is only good if you want to finance the legal department and throw money out of the window, because no DRM will be 100% safe, and all DRM-schemes that I've seen passing by were broken, sometimes even before their official release. Not to mention they cause enormous headaches with their paying customers, and I don't think paying customers are the kind of people they want to piss off.
Which was covered by the first sentance of the summary....... "Depending on your point of view, Jon Lech Johansen is either your hero or adversary."
I traded all my mod points for these magic beans.
Why do things have to be so black and white? I don't care one way or the other. DeCSS Jon is marginally better than Mitnick, because Jon actually produces something and is Fighting the Power (TM) and Sticking it to the Man (TM)... and that's a good thing. I don't agree with all that he does, but at least he's out there in the proverbial trenches doing what he thinks is right rather than just stealing music (or credit card numbers, like Mitnick) just because he can. He's also not a famewhore like Mitnick, trying to turn a moment of dubious fame into 3) profit!!! Mitnick proves that Scott Adams is right: people get promoted because management knows their name, and one only gets one's name known when it's attached to some disaster. Thus, companies hire criminals like Mitnick as "security experts" because they've heard the man's name.
I put Jon into the same category as Linus... someone pushing the boundaries of the electronic world, and our rights therein. Someone has to be the pioneer, if mainstream society is to struggle with the issues brought up by the envelope-pusher.
Or you might think he's just some guy, you know?
In Soviet Rush, today's Tom Sawyer gets high on you.
To those who cherish freedom, he has been a pillar of hope
Since when did George Bush's writers start submitting slashdot articles?
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
The best example of this is the DVD of "Master and Commander". It forces you sit through 10 minutes of advertising of other films before you get to the main menu!
I found this requirement to be shockingly obnoxious.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
But DRM like iTunes' is the most liberal there is
And that's the problem. People don't balk at iTunes DRM. They simply say that it's the best out there, so they're happy. Kind of like saying having a brick dropped on your foot is better than having a bowling ball dropped on your head. People keep forgetting the fact that both options suck.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
For me the paper was largely useless to start with. The point is people really are asshats and will simply stroke you off for not being comformant with "the list".
... well it proves how immature he is. School is as useful as you make it. If you just treat it as a 9-5 it can be very ineffective. But if you treat is as playground of knowledge and use the time to learn as much as possible you leave school with the ability to pick up new things, etc, etc, etc..
I have companies like IBM, Sony, BitMover, etc... using my software and yet I'm unfit to work for them... That basically tells you that the people who "do work" and the people who "do hiring" are not the same and don't talk.
Not trying to ride on JJ but if he's trying to be hip by saying "school is useless"
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
You paint a picture of an evil corporate-controlled society with black helicopters and spotlights swarming in the night to take away your cherished freedoms.
Have you even been paying attention to the crap congress is up to?
Sure, no black helicopters and spotlights, but only because it's not as effective as passing laws in congress.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Why should tracks I buy from an online music store be more restrictive in what I can do with them than ones that come on red book Audio CDs?
That's a good question. Perhaps you would like to start an online business offering just that. Tell us how that negotiation with the RIAA goes.
MORTAR COMBAT!
You might have said that sarcastically, but a lot of people think this way. This kind of worldview emerges if you follow the current trend of relentless corporate-goverment culture restrictions policies to their logical conclusion.
Separately, I offer two analogies based on the last sentence in your comment:
1) The fact that record labels will not consider selling music online without onerous restrictions underscores Jons point.
2) Saying that iTMS has the least restrictive DRM scheme is a lot like the difference between the Minimum Security wing of a prison (iTMS), and the Maximum Security wing of a prison (the goal of the labels); in the end, you're still in prison.
Governments are not necessary.
Ok, this guy may have some valid ideas about DRM, but I feel that a artist/musician/owner/company... whoever, has the right to protect/use/distribute thier product however they see fit and if someone doesn't like it then they have every right not to purchase it. Wresting control of a item away from it's owner is not a nobal pursuit.
BTW normal consumer actions often police the worst sorts of DRM and Meida lock. Example... Disney once released a DVD were you couldn't skip the previews, they did this once, got slammed by the consumers and stopped doing it. If you want to change something you can do it with dollars.
If this guy is so smart about DRM and the finances of Media Companies, then I suggest he start his own media company and see how long it takes for himto go out of business.
--- Nothing To See Here ---
He's definitely a very talented kid, I mean he wrote DeCSS when he was around 16. Did any of his teachers notice his talents? Of course not. So he takes his skills underground where he meets people like himself. These people are tossed aside by an uncaring system, of course he thinks the way he does. He hates the system because it created him.
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
To those who cherish freedom, he has been a pillar of hope in an age when DRM (Digital Rights Management) threatens to overtake mainstream media.
Okay, this is bad.
Have we degenerated to the level of the government that we must use overblown rhetoric, that we don't question such rhetoric?
This is classic Loyalty Oath type stuff--"You Love Freedom, Yes?" "Um.. yeah..." "Then You Love Senator McCarthy."
I have the highest respect for those whom I can view as "pillars of hope", but I also have the highest respect for our language, and shit like this is, at best, abuse, at worst, propoganda.
Drives me nuts. I especially can't stand the Apple DRM fanboys. Oh how I disklike them. Thank God for people like Jon.
The music industry survived for years and years with NO copy restrictions at all. Tapes and CD's could be copied at will. And best of all at the height of "Copyright infringement" and P2P, the record companies are making record profits.
Any yet now we are supposed to accept these lockdowns and be grateful at all for their services? Because as the parent pointed out that's already happening. Let's look at what Apple has done with the power of DRM to brainwash users. Restrict from Internet streaming to local streaming. Restrict from unlimited Lan to 5 users a day. Restrict from 10 burns of a playlist to 7(IIRC), and finally as someone else had pointed out disabled features on Itunes and the Ipod to lock out competitors.
And still Apple DRM fanboys and people ignorant of how damaging DRM can be talk about how great it is . Well from here it sure as heck looks like real world DRM implementation suck and are only getting worse. Itunes 5.0 is going to be locked down so tight you can only listen to your songs in a locked room in the presense of an authorized Apple Rep.
btw I should mention I have no problem with Itunes and besides the Ipod being expensive have no problem with it either. This prasing of DRM and accepting your software being locked down has to stop.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
Beyond a certain point, key length doesn't really matter. It's the alrogithm that produces those keys that will get cracked.
With the first link, the chain is forged.
Ok, I've kept pretty silent about the whole DRM issue for a long time, because it doesn't really affect me. Since when was the "right to be entertained" a fundimental human right? I'm tired of hearing people whine, "I should be able to do whatever I want with my DVD." You bought a liscense, because that is what was sold to you. Just because I buy a book does not mean I can "do whatever I want with it." I can't copy it 50,000 times and sell it. I can't distribute it all over the internet. If you don't like what you're buying, stop buying it. Stop it with the childish ranting which is really rooted in your inability to break the entertainment-addiction.
most of you sound something like this, "my entertainment dealer won't let me steal entertainment(drugs) from him for myself or to give to my friends. So, I'm really mad at him and I'm gonna find all sorts of creative ways to steal from him anyway."
Whew, that said, I'm all for the freedom to develop and test new technologies. I just think there are better ways to stop DRM. Don't buy their liscenses. Don't buy anything from them until they sell exactly what you want. Otherwise, don't whine.
Is this. Now what do you think about him? An asshole? That's what I thought.
Joe Connard
So I was sitting here thinking about how I like to fast forward through commercials, and use adblock, and such, when I had a strange thought. So, I thought I would play a little Devil's Advocate, and toss it out here for comment.
:)
Think about how it is when you buy a magazine. The publication is chock full of advertisements. You can cut them out, but probably not without ruining at least one part of text. Fast forwarding a DVD is kind of like flipping past an ad page without reading it, but being as the technologies are different, I'm not quite sure how to compare them. So, what makes the magazine scenario different from the DVD one?
In addition to the comment above, I offer another idea that makes some bit of sense: What would it cost to buy the same magazine without advertisements? I'm thinking quite a bit more, and I doubt I would pay for a magazine that cost $20-$50 (depending on content, of course). There are conflicting ideas about what a DVD "actually" costs to make, but if you think about how it would probably cost more if there were no advertisements, I think you can kind of see why they make you watch those advertisements.
To me, it all boils down to the fact that a business is a business, and the only purpose of a business is to make money. If, in order to make money, a business has to agree that it will make a consumer watch someone else's add, then the business will do it in a heartbeat. It may suck for the user, but as long as they buy it anyway, it doesn't matter.
Anyway, just thoughts. Respond if you wish, but I'd rather hear interesting arguments than rehashed, tired quotes and flames.
1. Put in movie, wait until it queues up 2. Press Stop 3. Wait 3 seconds 4. Press Stop again 5. Press Play 6. Movie will begin at 00:00:00 Problem solved. Seriously, try it.
I didn't see that jj said "school is useless" in this interview.
It plainly states in the interview --> "Actually...I haven't attended university. I quit high school to work in the computer industry. "
I can see how you read into that, but you're possibly incorrect.
Karnal
This just shows how the MPAA has brought this on themselves. When DVDs first came out, what was the point of CSS? Average people couldn't make copies of DVDs until pretty recently. Was it forethought regarding the copying capability of the public? Hardly. It was about control. They wanted to be able to control the format. They wanted to be able to sell licenses of their product to DVD player manufacturers. They are still doing this today, but their grip is slipping.
Look at WHY DeCSS was created:
The MPAA and their cronies pushed the boundaries of good business, and got called on it. They thought nobody could do anything about it, so they didn't even consider backing down. I don't know of ANYONE who likes to sit through the crap they are forced to sit through on DVDs. The problem is, people are willing to put up with the inconvenience because there are no other options. Now there are, so MPAA - reap what you sow motherfuckers.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I mean, sure, we knew that to be true... but to put it right out there like that kinda hurts when you realize it's probably the main activity going on around here...
It's not the notes that are copyrighted...it's her performance of those notes contained on whatever medium, which is going to be a hell of a lot more than 5 bytes.
Besides, it's not the CSS source code that's copyrighted, Jon was talking about the actual numerical code used by the CSS algorithm to decrypt a DVD. The algorithm might be patentable, and the code for the algorithm may be copyrightable, but the code used to unlock a DVD is not.
It is this last code that I think he was referring to, and no one could deem that copyrightable. I've probably got a sequence of bytes in this post that has been used to decrypt a DVD...no one in their right mind would try to call me out on copyright infringement.