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Galactic Pancake Mystery Solved

mOoZik writes "According to the BBC, Astronomers have figured out why a series of small galaxies surrounding the Milky Way are distributed around it in the shape of a pancake. Theorists believed that the eleven dwarf galaxy companions should have a diffuse, spherical arrangement, but a University of Durham team used a supercomputer to show how the galaxies could take the pancake form without challenging cosmological theory."

40 of 117 comments (clear)

  1. Next on Pancake Galactica by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    The evil Egglons attack, wiping out most of breakfast.

    1. Re:Next on Pancake Galactica by AndroidCat · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why attack? Artifical food has been part of a complete breakfast for decades.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  2. A pancake... by Poromenos1 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Aha, now all that remains is to find a galaxy shaped like a bottle of maple syrup!

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    Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
    1. Re:A pancake... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Aha, now all that remains is to find a galaxy shaped like a bottle of maple syrup!

      Just watch Smucker's find a galaxy shaped like a lawyer.

    2. Re:A pancake... by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

      Aha, now all that remains is to find a galaxy shaped like a bottle of maple syrup!

      Mom always told you not to try science on an empty stomach.

  3. In depth ... by foobsr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... and more credit ... (and to enhance discussion :) ...

    Full article

    The Distribution of Satellite Galaxies: The Great Pancake

    Noam I Libeskind, Carlos S Frenk, Shaun Cole, John C Helly, Adrian Jenkins, Julio F Navarro and Chris Power

    ABSTRACT
    The 11 known satellite galaxies within 250 kpc of the Milky Way lie close to a great circle on the sky. We use high resolution N-body simulations of galactic dark matter halos to test if this remarkable property can be understood within the context of the cold dark matter cosmology. We construct halo merger trees from the simulations and use a semianalytic model to follow the formation of satellite galaxies. We find that in all 6 of our simulations, the 11 brightest satellites are indeed distributed along thin, disk-like structures analogous to that traced by the Milky Way's satellites. This is in sharp contrast to the overall distributions of dark matter in the halo and of subhalos within it which, although triaxial, are not highly aspherical. We find that the spatial distribution of satellites is significantly different from that of the most massive subhalos but is similar to that of the subset of subhalos that had the most massive progenitors at earlier times. The elongated disk-like structure delineated by the satellites has its long axis aligned with the major axis of the dark matter halo. We interpret our results as reflecting the preferential infall of satellites along the spines of a few filaments of the cosmic web.

    CC.

    --
    TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
    1. Re:In depth ... by Martin+Blank · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There still isn't anything about why it happens. OK, so the simulation repeats history. It would be nice if at least some explanation were provided for it. Gravity? Dark energy? Stellar cheese?

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    2. Re:In depth ... by foobsr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Asking why is metaphysical in (at) the end :)

      Anyway, there they have some more readable info

      CC.

      --
      TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
    3. Re:In depth ... by stygianguest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      From what they understand they just showed that the available theories (well, the ones they chose to use) already give an explanation of the current situation.

  4. So therefore... by Z0mb1eman · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's bunnies all the way down?

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    ClutterMe.com - easiest site creation on the Net. Just click and type.
    1. Re:So therefore... by Zorilla · · Score: 4, Informative

      Damn, beaten to the Oolong joke.

      For moderators: Oolong the Pancake Rabbit

      --

      It would be cool if it didn't suck.
  5. Short answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Our local cluster is a franchise of IHOP (intergalactic house of pancakes).

  6. In other news.... by spiderworm · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... researchers are still working on the mystery of the cosmic sausage and eggs, as well as new puzzling information that seems to indicate the presence of a Great White Handkerchief... or maybe it's a napkin?

  7. Without challenging cosmological theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Dark Syrup explains galactic pancake mystery.

  8. Re:Pancake? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Look, I don't want any toast, and he doesn't want any toast. In fact, no one around here wants any toast. Not now, not ever. No toast!"
    "How 'bout a muffin?"
    "Or muffins! Or muffins! We don't like muffins around here! We want no muffins, no toast, noteacakes, no buns, baps, baguettes or bagels, no croissants, no crumpets, no pancakes, no potato cakes and no hot-cross buns and definitely no smegging flapjacks!"
    "Aah, so you're a waffle man!"

  9. Remind you of anything? by Daxx_61 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This sounds a little like planetary formation. What if these 'halos' were really rings, due to some sort of spin in the original setup? Do they have to be a 3-dimensional halo? I am not an astronomer, but it sounds reasonable to me - could someone please explain this?

    --
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  10. Re:Way to go, University of Wherever by Martin+Blank · · Score: 3, Informative

    How much of this kind of research does NASA actually do? It seems that they largely put the satellites in place and maintain them, and universities handle the data analysis.

    --
    You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
  11. Re:Way to go, University of Wherever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    University of Durham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durham/

    Just 'cause it's not in the US...

  12. Before anyone thinks of putting dark matter syrup by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...on this pancake, Smucker's already has a patent on it.

  13. Well... by rob_squared · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...there *are* certain galaxies that look like oranges. http://www.eso.org/outreach/press-rel/pr-2003/imag es/Phot32/phot-32a-03-normal.jpg

    --
    I don't get it.
  14. Silly scienticians! by Flamekebab · · Score: 2, Interesting

    without challenging cosmological theory
    Isn't it supposed to be about challenging current theories?

    1. Re:Silly scienticians! by bloggins02 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Isn't it supposed to be about challenging current theories?

      No, it's supposed to be about parsimony. If you find an explanation of a phenomena that fits with current theories, that's favorable to throwing out a bunch of current theories just to explain your phenomena.

      It's called "simpler." We like simpler.

  15. A Quick Question by MankyD · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've got a slightly more than average knowledge base on cosmology (though maybe not more than your average slashdotter). I've read a few books, but one thing I've never cleared up: Why do galaxies form in flat spirals and pancaks, and not in gravitationally stable spheres? Is there a simple reason I'm missing?

    --
    -dave
    http://millionnumbers.com/ - own the number of your dreams
    1. Re:A Quick Question by MankyD · · Score: 2, Funny

      Mod me down - I just remembered why. I'm an idiot.

      --
      -dave
      http://millionnumbers.com/ - own the number of your dreams
    2. Re:A Quick Question by imsabbel · · Score: 4, Informative

      Angular Momentum

      If you have a total angular momentum of 0, you get an eliptical galaxy. All stars have totally random orbital orientations around the center, so it gives an elipsoid. it COULD be a sphere (but what do you mean with gravitational stable? all galaxies are dynamic), but the chances are rather slim).
      If there is a angular momentum, it will create a disc simply because thats a lower energy state with the same angular momentum compared to a sphere.

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    3. Re:A Quick Question by Pedrito · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'll grant that I'm no a math whiz, so I don't know the mathematics involved, but the reasons seem so obvious as to make me wonder how this could possibly challenge "cosmological theory." Most galaxies are pancake shaped. Most solar systems are pancake shaped. As you mentioned, nothing is really "gravitationally stable." I mean, if there's any movement at all, things are going to coalesce into a pancake shape eventually, unless all the movement is completely canceled out by opposite forces/movement, which is just statistically incredibly unlikely.

    4. Re:A Quick Question by Bastian · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So what you're saying is that you have to have the matter in the galaxy orbit (more or less) around a common axis, like in our solar system.

      What would cause this to happen, instead of there being a bunch of randomly-oriented orbits?

      (I suppose I am making the critical assumption that the distribution of matter immediately after the big bang was uniform, and I'm sure any cosmologist would be happy to smack me down over that, but I'll ask anyway.)

    5. Re:A Quick Question by khayman80 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      First of all, the galaxy is believed to have condensed from a much larger cloud of primordial hydrogen and helium (it's theorized that supermassive black holes played a large role in this process). Because the proto-galaxy condensed from something MUCH larger, its moment of inertia reduced dramatically (rather like an ice-skater drawing her arms in to spin faster). This caused the angular rotation of the galaxy to increase around whatever axis the angular momentum pointed originally (which I would imagine is completely random for each galaxy).

      So each galaxy should have non-zero angular momentum. This doesn't mean that there shouldn't be ANY spherical-like orbits, just that the majority of objects orbit in the "pancake" that is perpendicular to the axis of rotation. Here's the punchline: over billions of years, the objects that are NOT orbiting in the galaxy's pancake have close encounters with the more numerous objects in the pancake, and are either flung out of the galaxy or put into more normal orbits. The same process accounts for the fact that all planets in the Solar System orbit in a common plane (called the ecliptic plane).

      As for elliptic galaxies, my impression was that they are the result of low-speed collisions between two spiral galaxies of roughly the same size. The two pancakes then combine to form a diffuse cloud of strars. For instance, when the Milky Way impacts Andromeda in 2 billion years (or is it 3? I can't remember), the result should be an elliptic galaxy if I understand the dynamics correctly.

    6. Re:A Quick Question by ph43drus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      IAAP (I am a physicist), and the gravitationally stable spheres is a problem. That's what this study was looking at.

      The bright, visible, normal matter forms into a disk in every galaxy we see. This cannot be explained with Newtonian gravity (or Einsteinian, for that matter). You see, when you just stick the normal matter in a simulation to check the evolution of a galaxy, it doesn't stay in the disk shape. To get the simulations to work (meaning, predict disk galaxies), you have to put a spherical halo of dark matter around the galaxy. With the dark matter there, it works perfectly.

      The other option is that we're completely screwed up in terms of our beliefs about gravity. However, we haven't gotten any clean results using alternate formulations of gravity.

      So the answer is, to the best of my knowledge, galaxies are disks because they either have (a) halos of dark matter or (b) our formulation of gravity is extremely flawed. Both of these answers are the current big embarrassments in physics. Both are bad answers. I haven't seen an alternate to gravity that works, and dark matter is a cop out.

      From looking at the article, it looks like they've done a huge simulation taking the dark matter halo bit to the extreme and finding that it correctly predicts a flat arrangement for the satelite galaxies.

      This is not proof of dark matter, it merely shows that it is the appropriate adjustment to gravity to explain some of the phenomena in the sky. What this actually means is that the correct answer for "why are galaxies disks?" will likely be the same answer for the pancake mystery. So, the authors did not actually solve the problem, they just showed that the current, in vogue kludge works for the pancake mystery too.

      I'm, personally, quite sick of hearing it held up as an explanation as if it is the end all be all of fixing cosmology. It is a stupid cop-out with nothing to back it up. There is no experimental evidence for it. We have yet to find anything that could be dark matter (and there are people looking very hard to find it). Other theories don't have anything in them which could be dark matter (no particle theorist has come up with anything, and certainly not the high energy experimentalists). It is a big ol' strap of duct tape to fix a gaping hole in cosmology. There is nothing backing it up. Quite frankly, it's starting to sound like the Æther to me. And we all remember where that got us.

      Jeff

    7. Re:A Quick Question by Bastian · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I am actually glad to hear that. . . I don't know enough about current physics to really make any sort of valid judgement on the theory. (I frequently get the feeling that I don't even understand the basic ideas behind relativity very well.) But the idea of dark matter always seemed to me to be rather fishy, sort of like the old crystal spheres that held the planets aloft.
      I mean, they're both explanations for physical phenomena that were unexplainable under the model for how the universe worked at the time they were created, and they are both these sort of hand-wavey firmaments that don't seem to be something we can see or touch, but that we know to be there because they happen to magically make everything work. And dark energy feels like another hasty band-aid on top of the whole mess, like epicycles. My intuition is to think that the last few times people found problems with the theory, it turned out that the fundamental model was wrong, not that we needed to fill the universe with more crap (crystal spheres, aether, thunder gods, what have you), and to think that maybe it isn't so silly to try and extrapolate that pattern.

    8. Re:A Quick Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I am a physicist too, and I suggest you review some astrophysics.

      Dark matter is more than a "cop out". If dark matter only explained one thing, it might be a cop-out, but it simultaneously explains observations in cosmology, observations of galactic rotation curves, and large-scale structure formation -- all independent phenomena. This is a nontrivial accomplishment.

      It is also not true that no particle theorists have come up with anything which could be dark matter. Quite the opposite -- they have too many theories. The leading candidates are axions (thought to be needed to solve problems with CP symmetry in QCD) and supersymmetric partners. Experiments are underway to try to detect these.

      As for discs, spheres of matter with some net angular momentum will form into rotating discs without dark matter, once there's a region locally dense enough to collapse. But dark matter is needed to explain our observations of the specific way in which disc galaxies rotate. It is also needed to explain how the universe got clumpy enough for matter to start collapsing into galaxies in the first place.

      Dark matter is the "new aether"? You could have said the same to people who proposed that an unseen body (Neptune) was perturbing the orbit of Uranus. But people looked, and they eventually found that there really was something there. And this was based on only one kind of observation, the orbit of Uranus, not cosmological observations plus galactic rotation observations plus galaxy cluster observations, all of which are explained by dark matter.

    9. Re:A Quick Question by nimblebrain · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hear, hear.

      I've been quite surprised at the influx of "odd" observations over the past few years; I certainly wasn't expecting local pancake structures.

      You raise a pretty good point, though, on the structure of disks, large and small, in the first place.

      Plasma physicists jump up and down that the in-vogue theories treat large-scale magnetic fields and currents as non-existent, as though charge must cancel out on the large scale, therefore it has no effect. Sometimes, they make a good point - some of the disk systems do resemble dynamos.

      Some of the papers I've read in passing on "push" gravity theories estimate that the force of gravity is proportional to 1/d**2 locally, but trends to 1/d on the outsides of the galaxy. Otherwise, there's a lot of unseen matter there (and we haven't seen anything resembling the high-velocity clouds gathering on the edges of the galaxy)... or, alternately, we're ignoring a dynamo effect.

      Or... etc. (Assuming we stop before postulating that angels sit on the edge fanning galaxies with their wings ;)

      It's the bank of poorly-explained pieces that will lead us to our next big theoretical breakthrough (or revolution) - but it takes some special vigilance to keep track of what hasn't actually been explained properly, and what's been merely papered over.

      Too many tweaks. They should have realized something was wrong sometime between inflation theory, and dark-energy-requiring ever-increasing-acceleration theory. Plenty of duct tape on things already :)

      By the way, speaking of aether... ;)

      I can understand the establishment position somewhat... it's either duct tape or anarchy. There's got to be a standard to measure against, but if the explanations start stretching thin, they need an exit strategy.

      If that day comes, they will need to exit to something, though. What's out there that can explain the pancakes at multiple scales of the universe and other phenomena as well?

      Perhaps they need to take a page out of other research and development, and apportion some funds to "blue sky" research.

      The biggest dividends will come from research that's reviewed for logic, self-consistency and explanation of phenomena without regard to how well it fits into prior patterns. Pro-Ams and people in fields with more easily measureable results (applied sciences, for one) realize these benefits, but being in a field where so many assumptions have to be made to interpret the results in the first place make this next to impossible for the theoreticians to condone dissent.

      Everybody's MMV :)

      -- Ritchie

      --
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  16. Re:Way to go, University of Wherever by kfg · · Score: 5, Informative

    NASA is about rockets. This isn't the sort of stuff they do really do. They help supply data to astronomers/cosmologists/physicists who apply to them, and who, largely, are affiliated with universities and are not "kids."

    Dr. Feynman at CalTech and Dr. Sagan at Cornell, for instance, who were both rather famously at odds with NASA more often than not.

    "Citizens" have always handled the bulk of astronomical research.

    Because more often than not NASA is the necessary enemy of astronomers. It is a government agency, run for the government's purposes, complete with a government beauracracy, and only provisionally interested in theoretical science at all.

    But they own Hubble.

    I might also point out that these "kids" weren't even in America. England has a university or two worth a damn that might object to being catagorized as "random", and four or five smart people in them. Germany, China, Australia, and hell (as it were), even the Vatican have quite capable cosmologists of their own.

    NASA isn't the center of the universe.

    KFG

  17. Re:Way to go, University of Wherever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    NASA doesn't really specialize in science. It specializes in complex engineering feats where outside scientists run the experiments. When the Mars Exploration Rovers landed on Mars, the project was run by JPL engineers, but the science data was evaluated by scientists at various institutions (initially the ones who helped design the science payloads).

    NASA gets credit for many scientific discoveries due to the fact that they wouldn't be made without the NASA hardware. But NASA does not employ the scientists who make the discoveries (except in a few odd projects like asteroid impact research).

  18. So... by unsinged+int · · Score: 4, Funny

    when's the galaxy due to flip over?

  19. Re:Way to go, University of Wherever by Tim+C · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well, maybe *you've* never heard of the University of Durham, but it's one of the foremost universities in the UK, and the Physics group there is extremely well-respected.

    This isn't "some kids doing a group project", this is proper academic research; you may have heard of that...

  20. Had to be done by taylortbb · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yes, but is it perpendicular?

    (ducks)

  21. This may very well be redundant... by thegnu · · Score: 2, Funny

    Theorists believed that the eleven dwarf galaxy companions should have a diffuse, spherical arrangement

    Sounds like someone's been watching the Lord of the Rings box set a wee bit much.

    --
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  22. The most irritating part of being an astronomer by Simonetta · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The most irritating part of being an astronomer must be constantly defending the allocation of millions of dollars of public funds on whatever it is that they do.

    A major new theory in regards to the shape and spacing of galaxies; what difference does it make to anyone?

    Any bible-thumping corrupt two-bit schmuck of a politician can come up with a reason why the millions of dollars spent on astronomical research would better be directed towards one of his campaign contributers. And there are lots of those politicians nowdays.

    So how actually do the astronomers keep all this money flowing their way? I would suspect that astronomy is 80% math and computer programming now instead of primarily star-gazing.

    In the past, it wasn't this hard to justify the astronomers. Gods ruled the stars; kings ruled the people by the grace of the gods; astronomers interpreted the movement of the stars to convince the people that the gods still favored the king, and the king saw to it that the astronomers got plenty of money.

    Astronomical research was important in navigation and agriculture. When to plant and which direction to steer when out-of-sight of land was critically important. But real extraterrestial knowledge came slowly. It was only four hundred years ago that Westerners realized that the Earth moved around the sun.

    Today the most interesting about astronomy isn't theories about objects billions of miles away, it's how astronomers justify spending millions of dollars looking at objects billions of miles away.

  23. Re:Way to go, University of Wherever by avsed · · Score: 2, Informative

    You are absolutely kidding right? I've studied at Durham, UK (Carlos Frenk was my Astro lecturer), QM, London, and Stanford, US, and they all have their fair share of smart people. Calling Frenk, or indeed any of these guys "kids" is way out of line. Than again, I could just chalk it up as yet another example of American insularity. (Go ahead, mod me flamebait, I just don't take kindly to the "kids" vs. "pro" and "university of whatever" thing - it's rude and naive).

    Dan