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Minneapolis To Go Wireless

an_mo writes " According to a Minneapolis Star Tribune article, Wednesday will see the announcement of a request for bids on a citywide wireless access service The city will unveil a request for a proposal for a privately owned, $15 million to $20 million citywide wireless and fiber-optic network to improve government communications by linking every city building, police car and housing inspector. The network would also would be available to every individual in the city for $18 to $24 a month."

20 of 212 comments (clear)

  1. Shouldn't be all that expensive... by aicrules · · Score: 3, Funny

    That area is so flat one high gain antenna on top of a flag pole should be able to service everyone.

    1. Re:Shouldn't be all that expensive... by CharlieHedlin · · Score: 3, Informative

      Uh, a powerfull omni is high gain, it just has a very flat coverage pattern. Since you need to recieve signals, a powerfull transmitter won't do, you need a high gain antenna.

      All antenna gain comes from restricting the pattern. In your typical high gain directional antenna you have a conical pattern of anywhere from 3-45 degrees. There are 18dbi gain omni antennas, typically co-linear arrays. They will have a very flat pattern (typically 3 degrees vertically), but cover 360 degrees horizontally. The problem is that if it is on top of a flag pole you won't have any coverage below it, but that could be solved by using a standard antenna on a different channel closer to ground level.

  2. Pros and Cons of Municipal Broadband... by byteCoder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a resident of a suburb just outside of Minneapolis (Eden Prairie), I'm somewhat torn about this:

    On the positive side, this influx of competition in the broadband arena is good for me as a consumer, currently tithing about $45/month to Time-Warner Cable (which serves Minneapolis and the SW 'burbs). More competition in the broadband arena is a very good thing--especially when it shakes up entrenched local monopolies (Qwest DSL and Time-Warner Cable). Also, as a Hennepin County (which contains Minneapolis and my suburb) taxpayer, technologies that can streamline government operations (and either provide better services and/or lower taxes) is another good thing.

    However, on the negative side, I'm nervous about governments getting into the broadband business--the potential for intrusion and abuse of the citizen's rights to privacy is certainly increased. The fact that this deployment is run by a private company helps a little--but it still concerns me, since the government is providing the funding for it.

    Technology itself is neutral and can be used for both good and evil purposes. Perhaps, what I'd like to see would be a citizen's oversight group that can provide the checks on government abuse of the network.

    Another smaller suburb to my southwest (Chaska) has their own municipal deployment, which apparently is working out pretty well.

    As long as municipal broadband doesn't block other entities from providing broadband service to a community and foster competition, municipal broadband could be a very good thing. But, I'm still concerned about potential abuse of the network by the local governments.

    1. Re:Pros and Cons of Municipal Broadband... by Ingolfke · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm nervous about governments getting into the broadband business--the potential for intrusion and abuse of the citizen's rights to privacy is certainly increased. The fact that this deployment is run by a private company helps a little--but it still concerns me, since the government is providing the funding for it.

      Quit your whining. $24 and a set of 12 always-on govenrment monitored webcams in your house is small price to pay for broadband.

    2. Re:Pros and Cons of Municipal Broadband... by CharlieHedlin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Many of my posts have been opposed to municipal wireless, but this Mineapolis project seems a little different.

      The city is proposing a private city wide network. Sure they will be using City provided facilities, but so does every phone and cable carrier (the right of way for the cables).

      The private carrier will also be allowed to sell their services to end users. It basically sounds like the government has invited the private industry to bid on the opertunity to setup the network, with the city as their largest customer.

      There is far less chance for the government to censor the network in this arangement. Sure, as the carriers largest customer the city will carry weight, but they already carry weight with the franchises offered to cable and phone carriers.

    3. Re:Pros and Cons of Municipal Broadband... by ImaLamer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm nervous about governments getting into the broadband business--the potential for intrusion and abuse of the citizen's rights to privacy is certainly increased. The fact that this deployment is run by a private company helps a little--but it still concerns me, since the government is providing the funding for it.

      Just wait a few years when the religious zealots in town decide that "their" tax money isn't going to go to pr0n and that there should be filters in place. Hasn't this been the argument when it comes to filtering any other publicly funded access?

    4. Re:Pros and Cons of Municipal Broadband... by SuperQ · · Score: 3, Informative

      I attended a meeting with the people in charge of this project.

      The proposed RFP will be for "shared governance" where the city will have a say in how the network is run, but the service provider (qwest/comcast/timewarner _could_ in theory bid for this) will do all the build out.

      They will also provide city backed loans to help with the finantial burden. basicaly better financing terms, because the city is behind them.

      The city will pay a certin ammount to have priority access to the network for use with police/fire/municipal departments.

      It's a well thought out system, but is potentialy handing another monopoly over a big company. It is un-certin how badly they will step on local hotspots, educational institution wireless, and projects like the Twin Cities Wireless User Group.

      (we have a hotspot network covering a large park near downtown)

  3. Re:why? by Loco3KGT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because, surprise, it takes time and money to do things.

    Kudos to the government for charging monthly for access. Charge the people that use it instead of taxing everyone for a handful of geeks to use it.

    --
    Blessed be he who reads this post, Cursed be he who tells my boss.
  4. Wireless seems to be the "in" thing. by Dzimas · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I'm impressed that so many cities seem to get the idea of blanketing the metro area with wireless, but it also concerns me because the technology changes so quickly. Telephone and cable took decades to pervade the nation, and the technology progressed at a relatively slow rate compare to the proliferation of wireless 801.xxx standards that flood the market year after year.

    Spending $20 Million to install wireless is great, but it'll reflect poorly if the system isn't completely overhauled every few years.

    1. Re:Wireless seems to be the "in" thing. by Timesprout · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But this is the attraction of wireless, it requires far less infrastructure than previous networking technology so its cheaper and easier to implement and will be easier to replace.

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
    2. Re:Wireless seems to be the "in" thing. by Golias · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't know is Cringely is ever to be "trusted", but I happen to think he's 100% correct in this case.

      Out in Bloomington (a Minneapolis suburb), I've already got 2.4 GHz noise fouling things up to the point that my 802.11g hub has to be located almost dead-center in the middle of my house to reach every room. I would hate to think what would happen if the city started spraying competing signals all over town.

      Fortunately, it doesn't look (yet) like Bloomington is jumping on the bandwagon with Minneapolis. As part of the same county, we often get sucked into their bad ideas (such as building a new ball park for the Twins), but hopefully we will stay out of this fiasco.

      As I said in another part of this thread, I don't think I would buy this service even if it was available to me, as the DSL connection I have now is well worth the higher price.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

  5. Every cop car? by imbroken3a · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So if every cop car is linked, couldn't you find a way to track the location of each car and then use that to plan a crime? Or see that there are no cars on the road, so you can speed as fast as you want.

    1. Re:Every cop car? by giantsfan89 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Lots of cop cars are already linked via wireless. They just don't use 802.x. The one's I've seen use wireless modems, which connect at a LOT lower frequency, and also have a greater range. I used to repair laptops used in this capacity, and I was given a little demo by an officer I know (no, I wasn't being hauled off in handcuffs). The radios combined with GPS make for a very efficient tracking system of cars, especially for dispatch.

      --
      Don't ping my cheese with your bandwidth!
  6. a Personal Telco by tomwhore · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Want to empower your citizens or simply want to sell them to the highest bidder?

    Sure this simplifies the question, but some solutions ( http://www.personaltelco.net ) work with all the parts of a community ( citizens, biz owners, etc) to create the power to empower, not simply the muni blessed right to make more montly bill paying consumers.

    The real question is , what works for your community. In places where there is not a grass roots DIY mindset then the AOLization method might indeed be the way to go, for communities that can raise the populace to action though....oh thereis so much more to be done.

    Come to Portland, see the results in progress.

    -tom

    --
    Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap! Poor little clams! Snap! Snap! Snap!
  7. Re:I'm sorry sir, breathing the oxygen is extra. by Ingolfke · · Score: 5, Funny

    I look forward to the time in the not so distant future where wireless internet access is considered an inherent right.

    Yes and free food, and free homes, and free clothing, and free TV, and free video rentals, and free pot (like what you've been smoking) and free computers and free cars... yippee this is fun.

  8. Re:why? by Ironsides · · Score: 4, Interesting

    FTA: No tax money would be used for the Minneapolis wireless network, which would be paid for, built, owned and operated by the winning bidder on the city's proposal. That is a markedly different approach than in Philadelphia, where the city will own and operate a new Wi-Fi network.

    From You:
    Kudos to the government for charging monthly for access. Charge the people that use it instead of taxing everyone for a handful of geeks to use it.

    The one reason I am not against this implementation. Had they made it free, I would have been pissed. One thing I am concerned about though, how is this network (if it is using standard 802.11 a/b/g equipment), going to be affected by personal wirless hubs/routers? That should degrade/jam performance. They also are talking about replacing police radios (if I understood that correctly) with VoIP radios on this network. Wouldn't that be open to jamming (as in even more so than cellphones) and interference from other WAPs? Or are they going to ban the use of all non-city WAPs?

    --
    Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
  9. zerg by Lord+Omlette · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Didn't Popular Science just claim that Minneapolis is America's most technologically advanced city? Seems like citywide wireless access would be a piece of cake for these guys...

    --
    [o]_O
  10. Re:I live in Mpls - they will screw it up! by SuperQ · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actualy, I have met with the people in charge of this project. They want the whole system rolled out at once, as fast as possible to cover all areas, without gaps.

    This isn't municipal broadband either, it's commercial wireless, but the city wants "shared governance" to keep the wireless company in check, and so they have a say in the coverage (to prevent the problems you talk about) Basicaly they are trying to avoid another ricochet, network hardware all over town rusting because they went under.

    I live in Saint Paul, and we're trying to do something similar, although we're about 6 months behind minneapolis.

  11. I Live In Minneapolis by handy_vandal · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've lived in Minneapolis all my life, and I'm here to tell you that free wireless is a natural outcome of our longstanding populist/socialist traditions.

    Free market, my ass. If you want to live in a better world, instruct your government to tax you and your neighbors -- then spend that tax money on a better world.

    -kgj

    --
    -kgj
  12. For those of you too lazy... by webhead04 · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...to RTFA, here are some key points.

    * The citywide wireless network is necessary to improve government communications by linking every city building, police car and housing inspector to the city's databases, city officials say.


    * No tax money would be used for the Minneapolis wireless network, which would be paid for, built, owned and operated by the winning bidder on the city's proposal.

    * Minneapolis officials decided not to build their own wireless network because of high construction and administrative costs, Beck said. In addition, city officials were concerned that cities offering high-speed Internet service have been accused by large telephone companies of competing with the private sector, he said.

    * the city also needed an improved network that could speed up data traffic in its 47 main buildings and extend high-speed access to 300 other buildings

    * The city also wanted to replace expensive cellular radio communications used by police cars with a cheaper and faster wireless data network. There also was a desire to provide broadband to an estimated 10 to 15 percent of the city's population that either isn't served by high-speed Internet access or can't afford it.


    So, there's a little bit more going on here than the city slapping an antenna on top of the IDS tower and charging people for internet access, which a lot of these posts seem to think is what is happening.