The Eight Stages of Permadeath Debate

MMOG Designer and commentator Damion Schubert has up an article on the constantly renewing Permadeath debate. Permadeath is the concept of permanent death for a character in a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. The design hasn't shown up in any major commercial games yet but, to borrow a phrase, the soul still burns. His commentary is a great synopsis of the debate, from the rearing of its head to the final bitter back-biting threads. From the article: "3. Captain Obvious Speaks. 'People don't like to lose their stuff.' 'It isn't fun.' 'It's hardcore, and only hardcore games will ever use it.' 'Any game which depends on the internet for its reliability has no place permanently taking away all your stuff.' 'Why in God's name would anyone consider this idea a good or compelling idea?'"

Comments

Hardcore...

[Southpaw018]

The hardcore market would love this. It's the ultimate sense of danger, lending reality to a fantasy world. Most everyone else, however, doesn't. The quote about losing your stuff is absolutely, wholly true. Case in point: the success of World of Warcraft. When you die, you lose a couple dozen silver each time at most. No xp, no lives, no item penalties. Nothing. The other night I must have died a dozen times or more in attempting a difficult raid without enough people and I racked up 3g in repairs (for those who don't play WoW, at max level you can make 3g back with 15 minutes' lightweight work or 10 minutes hard grinding).

People love that. Hell, I love that. It encourages raiding and confrontations and risk, and pretty much adds to the enjoyment of the game knowing that attempting something difficult or even stupid won't set you back. It's just fun.

Re:Hardcore...

[GoofyBoy]

> pretty much adds to the enjoyment of the game knowing that attempting something difficult or even stupid won't set you back.

Thats what some people complain about. All "leveling" games have no level of risk or sense of actually achieving something. Any monkey can get to level 60 given enough time.

You run by a level 60 in WoW and you think, "gee that guy has a lot of time on his hands." You run by a level 60 in a permadeath game and its a whole different story.

Re:Hardcore...

[nc_yori]

That of course begs the question "does anyone give a damn?" I'm not trying to be rude, just pointing out that WoW and the like are games, nothing more. When a game has built-in mechanics that cause frustration in most/all of its players, is it really that well designed?

I know the whole point of hardcore play is the added element of challenge, but is there really a point to implementing something that less than 1% of players will enjoy.

Another thing to consider is the human factor. I could only begin to imagine the tech support headaches stemming from people who have suffered the effects of hardcore play without being prepared to deal with them. About to die? Pull your ethernet cord, let the game log that you timed out, log on, bitch out tech support for you dying because of "lag" or "being disconnected."

I think he fundamental problem behind hardcore play in games that you pay actual money for per month is the risk for both the player and the provider. Players risk losing months of work they've payed for and providers risk being on the recieving end of a lawsuit when jackass player X loses a character due to server lag and demands retribution.

Re:Hardcore...

[GoofyBoy]

>That of course begs the question "does anyone give a damn?" I'm not trying to be rude, just pointing out that WoW and the like are games, nothing more.

Casinos have games in them, with people losing to the house all the time. Yet they are still profitable and people still come in the bus loads. Look at really bad sports teams, if you have a loyal fan-base, then you can still be profitable even though its fustrating to those participating.

>I could only begin to imagine the tech support headaches stemming from people who have suffered the effects of hardcore play without being prepared to deal with them.

Yep, I agree with you here.

Re:Hardcore...

[cgenman]

You realize that you're implying the existence of skill in MMPORPG's, right?

In permadeath games people behave far more conservatively. You die, your character dies, everything you've built up dies. So you're not going to go for the massive boss pile-on unless you're sure you're going to win. And where is the fun of that? Ultimately this means that the level 60 monkey will have to have even more time on his hands, and the game will seem boring and uneventful that whole time.

Of course, there are shades of gray. The question is what is the punishment for death, and is it appropriate? In Diablo, you had to go get your stuff. This was a pain in the tail, and generally made people not want to die. This also meant you were vulnerable until you went back and got your stuff. 20 minute setback. In other games, you have to buy death insurance to keep your stuff, or pay for an escape pod, or the like (10 minute setback). Losing half your gold is another example (1 minute - 10 hour setback). Losing all of your experience, and equipment, and progress (1 minute - 2 year setback) seems harsh in comparison.

Doesn't have to be permadeath only

[mtrisk]

Well a Permadeath-only game would be a failure, by why not have the option to make a permanent death or a regular character, and seperate the servers? This works in Diablo 2, the Permadeath (hardcore) characters are more fun to play with, the game is more challenging, you actually have to use your brain, and the best incentive, the items gained in hardcore mode are better than in normal. Plus it's a status symbol - "You have a Level 99 hardcore Assassin? Wow! I bow down to you."

It's not exactly an MMORPG, but it works alright. There are always those who seek to ruin the game by player-killing though, so anyone implementing Permadeath mode might want to take care of that, unlike Blizzard.