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Update on Project Prometheus

Aglassis writes "It appears that NASA is not backing down from their nuclear space initiative. Project Prometheus has recently started a new web page (under JPL) and NASA is finishing up a period of public comment (last session today). Currently Northrop Grumman is contracted to begin preliminary design of the spacecraft until 2008 for NASA (the reactor will be built by the Department of Energy's Division of Naval Reactors--the folks who control all US submarine and aircraft carrier nuclear reactors). Early specs are that it will be 60 meters long, have a 30,000 kg mass, use a 100 KW reactor using Brayton cycle gas turbines, be powered by ion thrusters with a 7000 second specific impulse, and have a science payload of 1500 kg. Early mission plans for Prometheus 1 (Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter) indicate that the spacecraft would orbit Callisto, Ganymede, and Europa individually, and perhaps have a lifespan of about 20 years."

86 of 406 comments (clear)

  1. Brayton cycle by worst_name_ever · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Interesting that they would pick a Brayton cycle power generation scheme. Since it's open-loop, that means you limit the lifetime of your vehicle to however much working mass - not reaction mass, that's probably xenon in this case - you have on board. Of course the limiting factor might in fact be reaction mass after all, in which case it actually makes sense to have an open-loop reactor and reap the benefits of a simpler system.

    Disclaimer: I am not a rocket scientist.

    --

    In Soviet Rush, today's Tom Sawyer gets high on you.
    1. Re:Brayton cycle by Smidge204 · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are open and closed versions of the Brayton cycle engine.

      =Smidge=

    2. Re:Brayton cycle by John+Seminal · · Score: 3, Funny
      Interesting that they would pick a Brayton cycle power generation scheme. Since it's open-loop, that means you limit the lifetime of your vehicle to however much working mass - not reaction mass, that's probably xenon in this case - you have on board. Of course the limiting factor might in fact be reaction mass after all, in which case it actually makes sense to have an open-loop reactor and reap the benefits of a simpler system.

      Disclaimer: I am not a rocket scientist.

      I am a rocket scientist, so I can anwser your questions. The key is to find planets rich in dylithium crystals. Or we can negotitate with other civilizations.

      Seriously, with everything they will need to carry with them, I hope they find a power source that is plentiful everywhere.

      And this is another reason why I hope we start colonizing other planets, building little self containted cities with mines and data reasearch centers. What will happen when the space ship runs out of fuel around pluto and nobody is there to help? I know.... it is all science fiction anyways. But maybe if someone can dream it, someone can build it.

      --

      Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

    3. Re:Brayton cycle by worst_name_ever · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh - sure. Just run the working fluid through a heat exchanger and start all over again. See, I told you I'm not a rocket scientist! Hell, I'm just glad I even remembered what a Brayton cycle engine is - thermo class was a heck of a long time ago...

      --

      In Soviet Rush, today's Tom Sawyer gets high on you.
    4. Re:Brayton cycle by TheKidWho · · Score: 2, Informative

      He knows, but a baryton engine requires(this is what the grandparent assumed) a working fluid to get the heat energy of the nuclear reactor to power a turbine.

    5. Re:Brayton cycle by starman97 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here's Nasa's close Brayton Cycle unit
      http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT2002/5000/5490 mason. html

      Only 24% of the thermal heat from the reactor is converted to electricity, but then that's probably pretty good for a closed cycle unit.
      No good heatsinks in space.

      --
      Starman97@Gmail.com (bring it on spammers)
    6. Re:Brayton cycle by dpilot · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You get no "transfer" to that 4K, you just get to radiate into it. As the other response says, you also have solar radiation to contend with. So your radiator has to be mirrored on the sunward side and black on the outward side. As long as your outward side can radiate more than your sunward side absorbs, it's just a matter of scale.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    7. Re:Brayton cycle by Smidge204 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When energy (heat) goes from here to there, that's called a transfer. It doesn't really matter what it gets transferred to (call it "dark matter" if it helps).

      As for solar gain, that's simple... position your radiator so that it's parallel with the sun's rays. Let the sunshine hit the edge of the radiator, which would have a much smaller profile and would not be part of the heat transfer surface. You could even build a small sheild or use the craft itself to create a shadow.
      =Smidge=

  2. The PDF is embarrassing by bloggins02 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For a large space and aviation company- just awarded a $400 million contract- you'd think they could afford to hire a copy editor.

    That was terrible. Cool project though :)

  3. I saw this before by Tracccer · · Score: 2, Funny

    Thats right the Asgard, come and install their own warp engine

  4. ahhh they stabilized it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    So they finally figured out how to stabilize naquandria...

    1. Re:ahhh they stabilized it by Fadeproof69 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Bah! I, for one, welcome our new Go'auld overlords.

    2. Re:ahhh they stabilized it by PakProtector · · Score: 2, Funny

      What do you mean, 'new', human?

      --

      Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
      man: no entry for woman in the manual.
      "Qua!?"

    3. Re:ahhh they stabilized it by rlp · · Score: 2, Funny

      Bah! I, for one, welcome our new Go'auld overlords.

      Oh, I get it - it's a reference to that TV show - "Wormhole Xtreme".

      --
      [Insert pithy quote here]
  5. JIMO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, funding for JIMO (Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter) has been cut.

    1. Re:JIMO by nametaken · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Wait, then what's all the JIMO stuff on NASA's Prometheus site for? Did they just forget to take it all down? Or haven't gotten to it yet?

      http://prometheus.jpl.nasa.gov/index.cfm?pageL1= mi ssions&pageL2=jimoSpacecraft

    2. Re:JIMO by applemasker · · Score: 3, Informative

      Indeed, here is a quick link I was able to find.

      --
      Bush Lies On the Record.
    3. Re:JIMO by NOLAChief · · Score: 2, Informative
      They're proposing to cut/reduce the funding for JIMO /Prometheus for the next FY. The entire budget's vaporware until Congress passes it, usually a couple months after it's supposed to be done in October.

      That said, every NASA visitor's center I've been in still has X-33/Venture Star still prominently displayed. Go figure.

  6. Thank god by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Finally, we can make some real space vehicles. Fission is the most energy dense technology we have.. it's what we should be using in space. When fusion comes along we may well have something better, but until then we should use what we have.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:Thank god by NanoGator · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Finally, we can make some real space vehicles."

      Yeah, but there's always the knee-jerk question about what would happen if a Columbia-esque accident occured with one of these. I'm not anti-nuclear, but I wouldn't blame somebody for pointing out that wreckage was found over a HUGE area.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    2. Re:Thank god by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, build it in space and launch the nuclear materials piece by piece.. a vehicle like this is never ment to enter the atmosphere.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    3. Re:Thank god by grozzie2 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      You dont have to guess about the issues, just look at history. The soviets had a satellite de-orbit over northern canada many years ago. The search area for nuclear debris was rather large.

      The politics of why they even bothered to look, and what was actually found, are another subject/debate unto themselves...

    4. Re:Thank god by flyingsquid · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Yeah, but there's always the knee-jerk question about what would happen if a Columbia-esque accident occured with one of these.

      Easy. We rename Project Prometheus to "Project Hubris".

    5. Re:Thank god by puzzled · · Score: 5, Insightful



      Coal is somewhere between one and thirteen parts per million Uranium. You can google and check the math but these numbers are not out of line:

      We put twenty five *tons* of bomb grade Uranium 235 into the air each year with our current coal consumption. U235 is .72% of naturally occuring Uranium which means we're putting up about 3,500 tons of U238 as well. U238 which gets hit by neutrons from cosmic rays becomes ... Plutonium.

      http://greenwood.cr.usgs.gov/energy/factshts/163 -9 7/FS-163-97.html

      Don't tell any tree hugging antinuclear activists, but our most common form of electricity production will *always* produce more radiation than the most horrific nuclear fuel accident. Changes the picture a bit, doesn't it?

      Its all cold war BS that we don't have nuke powered space vessels to take advantage of the 1,000X energy density improvement over chemical fuels. I hope this comes to an end soon ... I want fast Mars shots before I'm too senile to appreciate them.

      --
      I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
    6. Re:Thank god by SidV · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Thank Jeff that when you take a small mass of radioactive material that gives off lethal amounts of radiation and spread it over a large geographic area you cannot get a lethal exposure.

      In other words the background radiation of the debris area was less than the natural background radiation of natural Uranium rich areas like Western Africa, or in fact many parts of Canada, which have higher radiation levels than the debris area.

    7. Re:Thank god by ramblin+billy · · Score: 2, Funny


      Uhhh...was it because they were by Madonna or as a protest of the lame outmoded audio cassette format? Inquiring minds want to know...

      billy - damn, I just got used to 8 tracks

    8. Re:Thank god by Guppy06 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Yeah, but there's always the knee-jerk question about what would happen if a Columbia-esque accident occured with one of these."

      Nuclear reactors are a lot more mass-efficient than chemical rockets, to the point where unpowered free-fall descents (like the one Columbia broke up in the middle of) may eventually become a thing of the past.

      Also, the reactors are a lot more durable than a space shuttle orbiter.

    9. Re:Thank god by nickstance · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Note: I am not an anti-nuke nut but the problem with your argument is this:

      those 25 tons of uranium are spread over the whole globe, not just a small area. Chernobyl didn't realase that much radiation when it had its little boo-boo but that didn't stop a 30+ people from dying immediately, and another 200 or so being treated for radiation poisoning (not to mention varying degrees of contamination of the land, an increase in the thyroid cancer rate in the Ukraine, etc.)

      You will never be able to convince people who live ANYWHERE near the launch site of this vehicle that "hey, it's ok we promise you won't die from this".

  7. JPL by tyleroar · · Score: 5, Funny
    Project Prometheus has recently started a new web page (under JPL)

    Wow. Am I the only one that thought the JPL must be some license agreement like the GPL, and the wondered why the hell a web page needed to be released with a special license?
    Jet Propulsion Labratory
    --
    Portland, North Dakota Puppies
  8. Before you ask ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Does it run Linux?" ... yes, it does. The onboard microcontrollers on the craft will run the uCLinux kernel, with Gentoo userspace. I have no idea what the boxen back at NASA supporting this will run though.

    It's a pleasant thought that the first software that aliens might encounter from Earth won't be from M$ ... I for one don't want to welcome our angry alien overlords after they get sick of the crashes :-)

    1. Re:Before you ask ... by dotslashdot · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hopefully they won't mess up and forget to turn on some really important flag in the kernel, only to discover none of their software is compiled for USB.

    2. Re:Before you ask ... by grozzie2 · · Score: 4, Funny

      You obviously missed that chapter. The M$ software is proprietary, and will be kept here as the 'secret weapon'. When we do finally stumble on the borg (or they stumble on us), we'll seed the collective by planting Windows onto a drone. It'll only take a few days, and the entire collective will consist of millions of machines working at 2 tasks, first trying to fight off infections from other drones, and second, trying to infect other drones. The collective will grind to a halt, and humanity will prevail, until next week's episode....

  9. Re:Oh great by Travoltus · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Prometheus Nuclear Systems and Technology will focus on enabling NASA missions by researching and developing nuclear sources that will provide power to innovative scientific instruments and robotic systems, large and small propulsion systems that run on electricity and high-speed communications systems. The nuclear power sources would allow us to extensively explore our closest celestial neighbor, the Moon, as well as Mars and other destinations. Eventually, these power sources would support human explorers as they travel through space and explore other worlds.

    The first proposed mission within Prometheus Nuclear Systems and Technology would be a mission to Jupiter, the Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter (JIMO), which represents a new class of mission capabilities far beyond those possible with current power and propulsion systems. Powered by a space nuclear reactor and propelled by electric ion engines, the spacecraft would make up-close, long-term orbiting visits to three of the solar system's most intriguing moons- Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto. Beneath their icy surfaces, these moons may contain oceans of water that could have provided an environment that may have harbored life."

    http://prometheus.jpl.nasa.gov/index.cfm?pageL1= mi ssions

    Beats the heck out of me what that has to do with militarizing space. Besides, IMO, nuclear power is a lot less environmentally dangerous than other power sources except maybe solar energy (which might not work when you're x billion miles from the sun).

    --
    --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
  10. Nuclear worries by MagPulse · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is a possible reason for NASA avoiding nuclear propulsion that the U.S. is worried about giving other countries yet another reason to build nuclear reactors?

    1. Re:Nuclear worries by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's right. If Iran and North Korea decide to build a nuclear-based space program, then that would be a problem for the U.S. since Radical Islamists and Crazy Commies can now terrorize space instead of their neighbors. China is a different story as long as U.S. companies get contracts to build subcomponents at a hefty profit.

    2. Re:Nuclear worries by psychgeek · · Score: 2, Funny

      No one really worries that much about Nuclear technology in space. If it were NUCULAR on the other hand...... then there would be cause for concern!

  11. Is this science fiction? by John+Seminal · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Because there ain't no way the Bush White House is paying for this.

    http://prometheus.jpl.nasa.gov/contentImages/Blimp _over_Titan211_br.jpg

    If that above picture happens in my lifetime, I will drop a load.

    I hope they start with something more resonable than this. A big project will get bloated and is less likely to happen. Instead of going to Jupiter, how about getting to Mars with a little more reliability, with people?

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

    1. Re:Is this science fiction? by FleaPlus · · Score: 3, Informative

      Because there ain't no way the Bush White House is paying for this.

      Actually, the Bush administration explicitly gave the go-ahead and requested funding for Project Prometheus. I dislike most of what Bush does, but this was one of the few things he did that I supported.

      Of course, this made anti-nuclear folks like Bruce Gagnon quite spastic.

    2. Re:Is this science fiction? by CaptainAvatar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's not just anti-nuclear people who don't like this. Robert Zubrin was pretty damning about the way the nuclear electric lobby hijacked JIMO and caused the cost to balloon due to unrealistic program goals, leading Bush eventually to not request any more money for it. It's a cool idea and I'd love to see it tried out, but the nuclear industry's greed has postponed it, at best.

      --
      The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
    3. Re:Is this science fiction? by syousef · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I hope they start with something more resonable than this. A big project will get bloated and is less likely to happen. Instead of going to Jupiter, how about getting to Mars with a little more reliability, with people?

      You think manned space flight to Mars is more reasonable and less bloated? It ain't a 3 day trip like it was to the moon.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  12. Re:Oh great by QuantumRiff · · Score: 5, Informative

    what do you think absorbs the readiation from the sun? (hint, its our atmosphere) that big ball in the sky that is the solar systems largest reactor (although its fusion, not fission). Honestly, do you think it's light that heats the earth? no, it radiation. Any radiation from a little spacecraft up in space is miniscule!

    --

    What are we going to do tonight Brain?
  13. Why, snails could move faster ... by 2TecTom · · Score: 4, Interesting

    than the real progress NASA makes.

    IMHO, it's a real shame projects like these aren't far more international in scope, open to all bidders, and funded from a futures type trust and traditional venture capital funding, as well as grants and taxes. Heck, most of these projects will pay back in spades if the new technologies were only properly licensed.

    It simply amazes me how we have so many business geniuses, but not one of them has even considered space as the next new continent. What ever happened to good old American ingenuity and initiative, eh? Why have we apparently just given up our collective dreams of space exploration and development? Any one care to explain?

    --
    Words to men, as air to birds.
    1. Re:Why, snails could move faster ... by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't blame NASA. I guarantee you there are a shitload of NASA scientists and engineers who are chomping at the bit to build this thing, and have been for decades. It's the politicians who make the spending decisions you should blame, and more generally, the voters who elect those politicians; if it weren't for our general loss of national will as regards space exploration after we beat the USSR to the Moon, we'd have a fleet of nuclear-powered spacecraft moving both cargo and people all over the Solar System by now.

      It simply amazes me how we have so many business geniuses, but not one of them has even considered space as the next new continent.

      Because the vast majority of businessmen, "geniuses" or not (mostly not) are incapable of thinking past next quarter's results. The potential ROI on space travel is huge, but it's also very long-term. Interesting that you mention "new continent" as an example -- it's worth remembering that the early voyages of the Age of Exploration were done on government funding. I think the lesson here is pretty obvious.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    2. Re:Why, snails could move faster ... by QuantumG · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Space development is the same old problem. As soon as you know enough technical information to make informed decisions about space travel you have lost the ability to think like a business man. If you could get a 500% return on a 10 year investment with minimal risk I guarentee that you would see private efforts to acheive that. As we don't, it is clear that no-one has come up with a business plan that can deliver that kind of return as of yet. Even a similar return over a 25 year period would be acceptable to some investors.. 50 years is somewhat more pie-in-the-sky and looks even more risky.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    3. Re:Why, snails could move faster ... by WhiplashII · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It simply amazes me how we have so many business geniuses, but not one of them has even considered space as the next new continent. What ever happened to good old American ingenuity and initiative, eh? Why have we apparently just given up our collective dreams of space exploration and development? Any one care to explain?

      I am currently working on this - so perhaps I can give you some insights. The main problems are conflicting visions for the future, and people having problems basing business plans in the present.

      For example - it makes no sense to start an aerospace company right now. There are more aerospace companies than there are payloads to orbit (literally - there are 50 orbital flights a year, and hundreds of little space startups). Even if you have "special sauce" that makes you 10x better than your competition, making others believe your rocket is reliable enough to launch their billion dollar payload will take a lot of planning, flights, and sales dollars. Not to mention that you are competing in a government controlled industry, where the winners have already been chosen to a large extent. Progress is being made, but it is slow.

      Additionally, the comercial launch people (who are the most likely to be on your side) also have a conflict of interest - they have already launched billion dollar satellites. What happens when you suddenly launch their competition at 1/10 the price? Suddenly they lose a couple billion of their balance sheet. (To be honest, this won't stop them - but it effects them psychologically at least!)

      The last major problem is that everything you can think of in rocket design has been thought up and patented or made public. Even though the patents have expired, it means that a startup company that makes a cheap rocket has no IP protection - so the second to market gets to use their IP without having to fund the development, so they would wipe the floor with them. Making information on your super rocket design public is a sure way to kill it. And just to make sure you know, rocket design is still hard! The rocket has to be 80-95% fuel. The engine has to operate at temperatures far higher than the melting point of any possible material - even diamond or tungsten. The engine has to be nearly 100% efficient (except exhaust losses), because it can't weigh much but has several GigaWatts flowing through it!

      All of these problems must be addressed in your business plan - and remember, your business plan needs to be convincing enough that your wife would be willing to invest. That's why I am taking it slowly, spending two years finalizing my business plan - making sure that I have covered all the angles. I need to talk to all the stakeholders, and make sure that they will not fight against the project. Hopefully, in one year the public will hear about it. (Of course, the fact that I get my EMBA at that point is also convinient.)

      I am optomistic though - the plan has a 10x return in the first 2 years (high risk), 2x return in the next year (medium risk), and a somewhat normal return for the remaining years (almost no risk).

      Of course, I could also have answered your question with this line:

      What are you waiting for? If you think it will work, why don't you do it? Startups are what make our economy work!

      --
      while (sig==sig) sig=!sig;
  14. Ehhh.. by Guppy06 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "It appears that NASA is not backing down from their nuclear space initiative."

    It'll still be lifted off the ground by chemical rockets. What happened to NERVA?

  15. Isn't that quaint by chaffed · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yeah cool but please don't call till the Agamemnon is launched.

    Goofing around aside. This is cool. Dangerous but cool. Let's face it. This will be the mode of propulsion that will take spacecraft around our solar system for many years to come.

    --
    What could possibly go wrong?
    1. Re:Isn't that quaint by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Way O/T, but what the heck...

      That model was always the odd one out. Most of the human ships and technologies in B5 are remarkably credible for a SF series; rumour has it the guys designing the Star Fury model talked to some guys from NASA about how they'd design such a ship for real, for example. But who in their right mind would design a carrier ship where the main egress for the small craft was right at the front, where all the incoming fire is going?

      They'll be putting the bridge of a starship right on top, next to the hull with pretty lights saying "Shoot here!", next... <sigh>

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  16. Re:The U.S. has a good track record. by John+Seminal · · Score: 3, Informative
    The reason it's not an issue for the U.S. to use nuclear power is because we're genuinely interested in only using nuclear power in virtue of its energy-providing capabilities, not in virtue of its WMD capabilities. If Iran had a consistent record of pacifist-endeavors, it, too could be part of this wonderful cause. The minute that NASA workers strap nukes to their chests and run amok in downtime Washington D.C. is the minute I revoke my support for the U.S.

    We used it in WWII.

    And Iran would be pacifist if we never got involved in their history. They had a moderate government with some elements of capitalism. But then the USA decided to help Hussien, we sold him all the arms he needed to attack Iran for over a decade. And we let the Shah get expelled, for a very rigid Kohmeni.

    --

    Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."

  17. Heat Sinks / Spreaders? by reality-bytes · · Score: 4, Insightful



    I don't know the ins and outs but I'd imagine that if you have a nice chirpy nuclear-reactor to generate power, taking photovoltaics (solar panels) with you too would be rather pointless. - PVs would cost extra to put into space to start with and would also need trickery to align them with the sun.

    Having glanced at the picture, I'd suggest it is more likely that the big flat panels are heat dissipators (heat-sinks) to get rid of the excess heat from the nuclear reactor. I presume that in space there is no conduction of heat away from the vehicle, only radiation. And that you improve the radiation of heat by increasing the surface area.

    --
    Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
    1. Re:Heat Sinks / Spreaders? by GileadGreene · · Score: 4, Informative

      You are 100% correct. The large panels are radiators to dissipate excess heat. Large radiators are a standard feature in designs for space-going reactors, since the conversion from thermal energy to electrical energy is far less than 100% efficient.

    2. Re:Heat Sinks / Spreaders? by GileadGreene · · Score: 4, Informative
      Different mode of operation. Most of the SNAP series are Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators (RTGs). They produce thermal energy through radioactive decay of Plutonium (not fission!), and directly convert it to electrical energy using thermoelectric devices (the Peltier effect). I don't recall what the efficiency of thermoelectric conversion is off the top of my head, but I don't think it's that good - the main draw for using it the the lack of moving parts.

      The move to fission is driven by a desire to get more power (even a large RTG will only produce a few hundred Watts, versus the kilowatts they expect to get from a reactor). I don't know exactly what the trade-offs are with using Brayton cycle vs thermoelectric (or thermionic) conversion. The Russians have flown a number of thermionic nuclear reactors (the Topaz series), and they seemed to work fairly well. I suppose it's possible that Brayton cycle reactors are more efficient than thermoelectric/thermionic conversion. But even if you assume a (highly unlikely) 90% conversion efficiency, a 100kW reactor would leave you with 10kW of thermal energy to dump. At this point it's probably worth noting that even the most high-power satellites we currently fly (the Boeing 702 comm-sat) operate on a mere 15kW of power. So you're talking about being able to radiate as much energy as most satellites generate in total. And as I said, that's based on some pretty optimistic assumptions about the efficiency of the Brayton cycle.

    3. Re:Heat Sinks / Spreaders? by GileadGreene · · Score: 4, Informative
      In fact, you have to get rid of nearly all of the energy. Most of the energy that is converted to electricity is then used to operate something which then converts it back to heat (like a computer chip).

      A good point. In fact, thermal design for spacecraft (at least at the preliminary stages) is typically carried out under the assumption that all of the electrical energy not leaving the spacecraft as RF radiation is converted into thermal energy.

      The two energy expenditures I can think of that don't yield waste heat are the propulsion system (ideally), and the radios (again, ideally).

      Unfortunately, both of those items are less than ideal. It's not uncommon for a spacecraft transponder to be on the order of 20% efficient (or worse). Likewise, the ion propulsion systems they are planning on using for Prometheus have an electrical->thermal conversion efficiency of around 70-80%. Which for a 20kW thruster (e.g. the proposed NEXIS thruster) means 4kW+ of waste heat.

      Of course, I expect it would be possible to use a significant portion of that to heat the propulsion fuel.

      The current proposals for Prometheus involve nuclear-electric propulsion rather than nuclear-thermal propulsion. I don't believe that heating the propellant in a NEP system helps (although I'm not really a propulsion expert, so I'm quite prepared to be corrected on this).

  18. Woah..... 7000 Seconds by illectro · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's 10 times the best chemical engines ever designed.

    1. Re:Woah..... 7000 Seconds by NarrMaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Mmmm... Ion drive goodness.

      --
      That's right. All your base.
    2. Re:Woah..... 7000 Seconds by anderskc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      well, a specific impulse of 7000 seconds is a bit deceiving. True, conventional fuel/oxidizer rocket engines have, at best, a specific impulse of around 450 seconds. But thrust = Isp*dm/dt*g0. For the ion engine, the mass flow, dm/dt, is very small. Despite a specific impulse much greater than conventional rocket engines, the thrust provided by the ion engine is miniscule. Moreover, because Prometheus is so massive, the corresponding acceleration is tiny.

      The point is you cannot run a conventional rocket for months at a time. Also, the specific impulse of the nuclear powered ion engine is much larger than that of previously used ion engines (Deep Space One's ion engine had an Isp of about 1200 seconds I think).

  19. Light is, of course, radiation. [n/t] by Alexei · · Score: 3, Informative

    Light is, of course, radiation.

  20. At least three Russian RORSATs have fallen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There have been at least three Russian nuclear-powered RORSATs that have fallen to Earth, one into Canada in 1978.

    Not sure how big the Russian satellites are compared to this, though.

  21. Prometheus, you say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Great. Let's just hope that the ships don't encounter the Minbari along the way ...

  22. Project Orion was cooler, though by armed+ahmed · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Of all the atomic propulsion systems, project Orion is the one that struck me as 'reasonable', despite the atmospheric miniature nukes. The sheer payloads that it would enable make Orion the number one option for human spacefarization.

    That said, I'm happy it never really materialized. Having a universe with a human population spreading effectively in it summons an eerie image on a spherically expanding brain-tumor to my mind...

    ...anyone interested in nuclear propulsion and the most avant-garde of rocketry, read about "Project Orion" if you already haven't.

    http://isbndb.com/d/book/project_orion.html

    1. Re:Project Orion was cooler, though by argent · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeh, Orion was the hottest thing this side of project Pluto.

  23. This is not un-typical for Gummint projects by leonbrooks · · Score: 4, Informative

    Our local observatory (with live night-sky camera) is Gummint-funded. This leads to some interesting effects.

    Much of their computing equipment has been scrounged - and doesn't appear on any equipment manifests - because there was no budget for it. They have a Pentium-90 driving (pointing) their main 'scope with a backup P-90 literally sitting on the next shelf in case it dies.

    The few pieces of gear that they do get grants for are typically extremely fancy. On the rare occasions when ThePowersThatBe say "yes, you can have a computer to process the incoming images," then the cost of that actual computer system and absolutely nothing else is almost immaterial as long as it fits certain criteria.

    So... in the room to the left of the one housing the P-90 sits a you-beauty glow-in-the-dark (well, not literally, it would cause backscatter) state-of-the-art box with double overhead ThermalTakes and all the trimmings. Just one. And I bet they crammed memory and disks into that baby's purchasing spec until the chassis groaned under the weight.

    When Mark Shuttleworth gave his amazing talk at LCA2005, one of the things he mentioned was that the Yanks didn't want their astronauts (also going up in the Soyuz with Mark) flying to Baikonur in a rattly old Tupelov transport lest it unexpectedly drop out of the sky en route, but rather than come out and say so directly they came over all clever and simply pointed out that NASA regs forbade their astronauts to travel without seatbelts, which they knew the Tupelov wasn't fitted with. This was a mistake. On the day, the astronauts were marched out to the Tupelov, and aboard - and into a minibus in the cargo bay, where they sat and wore the minibus's seatbelts for the duration of the trip.

    BTW, when the video DVD from LCA2005 gets published, bend heaven and earth to get yourself a copy. It's well worth-while for Mark's presentation alone ("Welcome to Khazakstan!"), and there are many other excellent presentations on it (Keith Packard explaining the sport of Window Hurling, for example, or E'dale demonstrating how to collapse a penguin's skull).

    The point in that story which I wanted to use as an illustration here was that the minibus wasn't put aboard the transport for the astronauts' benefit. There was a budget for flying the Tupelov - pilots, fuel, landing fees and so on - but no budget for getting from the airport to where they were staying. So the van (which fell under the base's budget, so was financially covered) was fuelled up and driven aboard the Tupelov for use as a taxi while the transport 'plane was prepped for the return flight. In terms of working around bizarre regulations, NASA or not, the Americans really were amateurs playing in a professional field. (-:

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  24. Re:Risk by cybercuzco · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because this reactor will be designed to be in a rocket explosion. It will be launched before it goes critical. it wont even be turned on, and cant be turned on, until it is safely in orbit. Beyond that, there is alot more nuclear material in your nighborhood reactor than there will be in this thing.Not only that, but NASA launches over the ocean, water is a very good radiation shield. Thats why there are several nuclear submarines lying on the ocean floor that you arent worried about.

    --

  25. Re:The thing to do with Uranium by crypto55 · · Score: 5, Informative

    In case you didn't realize, Uranium is the 8th most common material on the planet... Taking a few tons off of it won't do any good. There's enough uranium to last the damn planet for the next 2000 years at least. Don't argue with me, I researched the damn thing two months ago. :)

    --
    Due to financial difficulties, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
  26. Re:The U.S. has a good track record. by ThreeE · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't know where you live grozzie. But I do know that your world is better because of those US nuclear weapons built by us hypocritical pots.

  27. Re:Oh great by SidV · · Score: 2, Informative

    Well atmosphere and the Van Allen belts which scoot much of the dangerous radiation around us (Earth).

    Of course those outside of our atmosphere and Van Allen belts are exposed to massive amounts of radiation, and without protection they would die.

    As to radiation from a Nuke in Space.

    1. Nuclear reactors don't explode, to explode (i.e. nuclear bomb) requires particular materials in a very specific configuration. A reactor does not meet the requirements. What you would end up with is a large hot radioactive mass.

    2. 100 Miles away wouldn't make much of a difference as there is nothing to stop the radiation in the interim (Vacuum of space), so you just loose exposure geometrically as the sphere of radiation expands. Regardless radiation exposure is kind of a binary system (for you geeks) enough to kill you is enough to kill you. Adding more does not kill you more. Since deep space has enough radiation to kill you the addition of more is irrelevant. Unless it is of a type to penetrate the shielding. That type is already emitted by the Sun, and is not particularly emitted in high numbers from runaway reactors.

    As to putting massive amounts of radiation into space. Well we have the Sun which is a big massive nuclear reaction dumping huge amounts of radiation. The sun is 1 million times larger than the earth. Therefore any nuclear reaction we put into space by definition is going to be less than 1 millionth the size of the sun, as a reaction 1 millionth the size of the sun would be the size of the entire earth, and any nuclear mass we put up is going to be less than that. In fact it would be less than 1 millionth of 1 millionth the size of the sun. And this puny mass would be in the solar system which is even bigger than the sun (By definition) in fact it's a lot bigger than that, much much bigger. So long as it's outside of orbit of the earth and doesn't come crashing down on East Philadelphia it would be of so little significance it wouldn't matter.

    But regardless. whether it's buried in the ground of Gabon, or floating in space it's just a matter of position. It's still floating around in space, and still emitting radiation. Putting it on a deep space probe just moves it from one plce to another.

  28. Re:Oh great - It's a question of size really... by __aaxtnf2500 · · Score: 3, Informative

    are you implying that a 100kw fission reactor in orbit presents an exposure concern to personnel? i hope you are joking. assuming average prompt gamma ray energy is 1 Mev, the reactor has NO shielding, 1 Ci of a 1 MeV gamma ray point source produces an exposure rate of 1R/hr at a distance of 1M, all of the energy is emitted from a point source, and the reactor acts as a 100,000 Ci point source(this should be conservative, someone with more knowledge might upgrade me on this?), then(neglecting backscatter buildup): DR @ 1m = 100,000R/hr DR @ 10m = 1000R/hr DR @ 1km = 0.1R/hr DR @ 100km = .01mR/hr 365 days * 24hr * .01mR/hr = 87.6 mRem(assuming 1 as a QF, i can't recall the QF for a 1MeV gamma flux right now). assume the reactor and craft present 1 tenth thickness of shielding(should be conservative): 8.76mrem assume the atmosphere presents 3 tenth thickness of shielding(again conservative): .00876 mRem this craft in orbit(realizing it will not remain there) would, conservatively, increase the average persons natural radiation exposure by less than one thousandth of one percent. this is simplistic but AFAIK conservative.

  29. Re:Massive waste of money by mclaincausey · · Score: 2, Insightful
    First of all, exploring the moons of Saturn or Jupiter affords us no advantage in finding a new home whatsoever. It is scientific discovery for the sake of scientific discovery with few practical applications, and therefore, no essential relevance. I love scientific and intellectual pursuits, and think we should follow them when possible--but this is impractical given our limited resources.

    Second of all, a propulsion system has little to do with interstellar travel. Even if this thing worked (it's designed to stay in the solar system), we would still be unable to travel to other solar systems. The problems of time, distance, and physics as we understand them will almost certainly keep us in this solar system forever.

    Thirdly, I think you underestimate the immediacy and gravity of the problems facing us. Making it through the looming problems of global warming, fossil fuel depletion, overpopulation, terrorism, et al has to come before bankrolling the research of private technology interests--which is all this really amounts to in the first place. If Northop Grumman wants to pursue this technology and they can do it safely, let them do it. But our economy already stands on the verge of collapse. Are we supposed to suddenly believe that the organization that lacks the funding to complete the Voyager project now suddenly has the money to undertake this much more expensive mission? Are we supposed to assume they have the competence, after two shuttle explosions and a backwards mirror in a multibillion dollar telescope, not to detonate the reactor in the atmosphere? I want my tax dollars going to more practical use, and so should we all--unless we hold stock in the contractors behind this massive scam, the same sort of people who keep insisting we need a missile shield in this world of suitcase bombs.

    We aren't getting off this rock anytime soon, regardless, so we might as well try to buy a few more years here until we have the technology to terraform and settle Mars. That technology will emerge without pointless exercises in lunar exploration.

    --
    (%i1) factor(777353);
    (%o1) 777353
  30. Re:Oh you mean W2k-style power management? by uberdave · · Score: 2, Informative

    Embedded systems use a device called a watchdog timer. Basically, it counts down from, say 2 minutes, then reboots the computer. The programs running on the computer need to continually reset the timer back to the 2 minute mark. If the computer locks up, the timer is never reset. It will count all the way down and reboot the computer.

  31. Re:Oh great by iamlucky13 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I thought you might like to know that nucleotides are those cool little thingies in your DNA that make up the genetic code.

    The current plan is for fission reactors to be used outside of an earth orbit. Earth is close enough to the sun that solar panels are still a good choice for energy, so reactors aren't needed. It's on the deep space probes, like the Jupiter Ice Moons Orbiter (if it ever happens) where this becomes useful. It could also potentially be used on a manned Mars mission since the extra power it produces could be used to run an ion propulsion system.

  32. Re:Massive waste of money by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 2, Insightful

    dude.. exploring the solar system sets us up to learn how to traverse space!!! how the fuck do you think we are going to figure out how to go to other solar systems if we do not figure out how to safely travel in out solar system?

    where the fuck would we be if some cave man said he was not going to let any other caveman go anywhere until they figured out a way to travel 30 miles a day? we would be no where!!!!

    practice makes perfect dumbass!!!!

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
  33. Re:OK, offtopic, but.... by WombatControl · · Score: 2, Informative

    The image was done in LightWave 5 roundabout 1996-1997. The Omega cruiser was done by Matt Stetson, and the Starfury mesh was done by Mark Kane. LightWave was the same program used to do the show as well.

    Oh yes, and I know this because I created that image. :)

    My old site with a bunch of Babylon 5 renders is still up, although much of it was lost several years back.

  34. Re:Massive waste of money by Zebra_X · · Score: 2, Insightful

    #1 - Not immediately no. The technology that is developed to do this is of significant value to future attempts at living in other environments - or space.

    #2 - This propulsion system has everything to do with getting us to planets within our solar system. Up until the announcement of this project we have had chemical rockets to push us around the solar system. They are not suited to prolonged flights. This development is exceedingly important for getting us to destinations outside of lunar orbit.

    #3 Consider your words more carefully. But our economy already stands on the verge of collapse. This is not, in anyway a true statement. It's an alarmist over exaggeration of what's going on. Things have a way of sorting themselves out when it comes to the economy. Given the level of data available and the fact that people are managing the markets on a day to day basis - a "collapse" is not likely.

    As far as threats to the world:
    Global Warming - perhaps by the end of this century this will become a problem. The reality is that it's not just a U.S. problem - thus it's not truly "fixable". Fixing global warming has very little to do with money and everything to do with policy. As far as events that pose a threat to humanity this is certainly one - however a migration to say mars, could be realistic within the time frame of this event actually causing a great deal of trouble for us.

    Overpopulation is another interesting one. Did you know that densely populated areas are showing a decline in the birth to death ratio? That is more people are dying than being born. The evidence is starting to indicate that at least in urban areas populations are self limiting. Good news. Obviously this doesn't help in Africa where there just isn't enough food, and no contraception available. Again with global warming - the U.S. throwing money at this problem isn't going to fix anything.

    Terrorism? How is that an immediate threat? Yes, it's a concern but as far as having the ability to destroy our civilization. Terrorism is at its worst a "new" form of combat, that isn't liked by those (G8) who play by "rules". Either way - it's not going to bring down the house. Money might help this problem - but I'm not sure that it's any more important than ensuring we (humans) survive.

    The one thing that you touched on that has some validity is fossil fuel depletion. Depending on how badly the Saudis have depleted their oil fields (no one really knows) - the next 30 years could be very rough. The overarching problem with "Fossil Fuels" is not the fossil fuels but the lack of innovation in energy technology. Ideally the replacement for oil is a combination of Fusion and Hydrogen. We might have to suffice with Nuclear and Hydrogen, but the world needs to start now - and from what I can tell that is not happening. Wind, Solar, Tidal is great but it's not going to supply heavy industry with the regular and massive amount of power that is needed to run our economy. Money might actually help here - but we're not spending it.

    I want my tax dollars going to more practical use, and so should we all
    Who are you to tell us what we should endeavor to do with our tax dollars? In reality - "tax dollars" and actual budgets have very little in common.

    Are we supposed to suddenly believe that the organization that lacks the funding to complete the Voyager project now suddenly has the money to undertake this much more expensive mission?
    No my friend, they lack the desire. If they wanted to save it - they would. Apparently, like you they want to stay focused on projects that have immediate value. Those are missions within our solar system. The Great Unknown and what we could learn from it seems to be less attractive. As far as I can tell the probe is expected to continue transmitting until the 2030's but there seems to be no reference to the actual "mission" lifetime. The probes have both completed their primary mission and it would seem are fair game for discontinuation.

  35. Re:Risk by uberdave · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Nuclear fuel from a high altitude spacecraft explosion (side note, what would explode anyways?) would be spread out over an area of a square metre or two at most, as it will be in a container that can survive re-entry and crash landing, much as the "black boxes" that survive airplane crashes.

  36. Gaseous Core Nuclear Reactor Rockets by serutan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    On a related note, a few words about nuclear rockets. Back in the 50s and 60s some people, mostly science fiction writers, fantasized about nuclear powered rockets. In the 60s there was an actual prototype engine called NERVA. The idea was simply to use the reactor as a heat source to superheat a gas which would shoot out as rocket exhaust. The main drawbacks were the weight of the reactor core, the maximum temperature of about 3500 degrees C, and the radioactivity of the exhaust.

    Here's a really interesting article that describes a design for a 100% reusable, non-polluting nuclear rocket based on the Saturn V form factor, capable of lifting 2 million pounds of cargo into orbit and returning to a soft landing. Just like in the old sci-fi movies. The design involves a gaseous core reactor, sometimes called a "nuclear lightbulb." It consists of a quartz bulb containing a cloud of uranium gas such as uranium hexafluoride, confined the center of the bulb by a buffer gas swirling around it. By adjusting the movement and pressure of the buffer gas, the compression of the UF6 can be finely regulated. When it is compressed to a critical state it heats up to about 25,000 degrees C, glowing intensely in the ultraviolet. Liquid hydrogen propellant pumped around the outside of the quartz bulb absorbs the ultraviolet light, becomes superheated, and shoots out of the nozzle. There is no leakage of radioactive fuel and no irradiation of the hydrogen. Completely clean burning. Such a rocket could burn for immensely longer times than any chemical rocket, providing the speed to get a manned mission to mars in a couple months. And not a skimpy mission, a spacious vehicle carrying 1000 tons of equipment, supplies and radiation shielding. Building a rocket like this wouldn't require any far-fetched technology, just some dedicated engineering.

    I have never been a fan of nuclear reactors, but this thing sounds really good to me. The gaseous core has tremendous safety advantages over a solid core. The criticality of a cloud of gas is much easier to control and is to some extent self-regulating. For example, the problem of "hot spots" would not exist, because in gaseous form any part of the UF6 that overheated would expand, losing pressure and quenching itself instantly. The author describes several safety features, both active and passive, for letting the gas depressurize into a storage container extremely fast. Even if a gas core nuclear rocket exploded in the atmosphere, it would release a small fraction of the amount of nuclides from a single 1950s H-bomb test.

  37. NASA must have told Bush there's oil on Titan! by mbkennel · · Score: 5, Funny

    that's right, George, there's rivers and rivers of LIQUID HYDROCARBONS down there, and America's got the mineral rights!

  38. Re:The U.S. has a good track record. by Guppy06 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No, the correct answer is: the US is already a declared nuclear state and the continued manufacture of nuclear weapons is therefore not a violation of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, which pretty much says "If non-nuke states don't build their own bombs, nuke states will help them build reactors." What Iran is doing is outside the bounds of the treaty.

    Besides, when you already have several thousand fusion warheads, why build more?

  39. Re:A fistful of rebuttals... by norkakn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As an anti-nuke nut, I'd like to say that I'm fine with NASA using nuclear energy.

    I'm just not fine with Haliburten using it.

  40. Re:The thing to do with Uranium by MoralHazard · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While we're at it, why don't we shoot all the oil and coal and natural gas into space, too? After all, they're what power all those tanks and jet fighters that fight our wars...

    How about all the steel in the world, too, to keep people from making knives?

    Seriously--did you ever stop to think about the fact that nuclear fission might be a useful thing?

    Some of us happen to think that nuclear fuels will help PREVENT wars over dwindling fossil fuel resources. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, hippie!

  41. Re:The U.S. has a good track record. by meringuoid · · Score: 2, Insightful
    But I do know that your world is better because of those US nuclear weapons built by us hypocritical pots.

    Hai. Arigatou gozaimasu, Aisanhawaa-sama.

    --
    Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
  42. Re:The U.S. has a good track record. by Guppy06 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    "They had a moderate government with some elements of capitalism. But then the USA decided to help Hussien, we sold him all the arms he needed to attack Iran for over a decade. And we let the Shah get expelled, for a very rigid Kohmeni."

    And here, ladies and gentleman, is a shining example of the output of the US public school system!

    Seriously, if you're going to bash the US, do it right:

    Iran had something of a constitutional monarchy after WWII, with elected offices alongside a hereditary monarch. A certain Iranian politician was getting very popular, powerful, and friendly with domestic (and possibly foreign) communists. The US didn't like that and Teddy Roosevelt's grandson had the guy killed, whereby the hereditary shah took complete control, abandoning the democratic process.

    Because we installed the shah, Iran was friendly.

    Then the Iranian people, not happy with the lack of democracy and all, overthrew the shah and, doing what most other revolutions do, collapsed in on itself. After a few weeks/months the "Islamic republic" we all know and love came to be, complete with everybody's favorite ayatollah. Understandably, they weren't too friendly with the US. It wasn't that we "let the Shah get expelled" so much as we didn't keep propping him up, since some bad experiences in Cuba convinced Congress to rein in the CIA and keep them from doing the whole "overthrow a national government" thing again.

    At around this same time, for unrelated reasons, some nut-job overthrows democratic government in Iraq on his own and installs himself as the country's dictator.

    Iran didn't go against the US because we decided to support Hussein, we decided to support Hussein because Iran went against the US. You seem to have confused cause and effect there. In the beginning, there wasn't any clear moral high-ground in the Iran-Iraq War, and so we went to the next question on our Flow Chart of Foreign Policy*: "Which side is friendlier with the Soviets?" Things went (further) downhill from there.

    "And Iran would be pacifist if we never got involved in their history."

    ... You're funny.

    In general, if said government has human beings involved, it's not pacifist.

    * It could have been worse. I suspect the Iranians currently use a Coin-Toss of Foreign Policy.

  43. Re:The U.S. has a good track record. by Thomas+Miconi · · Score: 2, Informative

    And Iran would be pacifist if we never got involved in their history. They had a moderate government with some elements of capitalism. But then the USA decided to help Hussien, we sold him all the arms he needed to attack Iran for over a decade. And we let the Shah get expelled, for a very rigid Kohmeni.

    I think you are a bit confused about the particulars, though your general point is correct.

    Act I: Iran has a popular, secular, western-educated leader, Mohammed Mossadegh. Unfortunately this leader happens to brush American and British governments the wrong way, to the point of actually nationalising local oil companies (shock ! horror !)

    Obviously our luminaries of freedom and democracy can not tolerate such an attack on western businessmen's rights. So they organise a coup to get rid of Mossadegh and put the Shah into power, leading to a few years of a rather brutal dictatorship. That's Act II.

    Act III: At some point the Iranians got really pissed about it and started a revolution. This revolution was driven by two main forces: socialist intellectuals and islamic fundamentalists. As soon as the Shah was overthrown, the islamists simply eliminated the socialists and used their fanaticised support base to crush upon any kind of dissent.

    Just a bit later, Saddam launched a war against Iran for seemingly no reason - but with thorough US and western backing, at least in the beginning (hey, he's against the Mollahs, so he's a good guy, right ?). One million dead. Only when reports of atrocities emerged (gasing of Kurdish populations) did the west begin to reconsider their support for Saddam.

    Iranians hate the US, period. But this deep resentment against America was not instillated by their government - only exploited as a way to strengthen their power (since the Iranian government is the most outspoken opponent of the US on the world stage, anyone who dissents with the Iranian government can conveniently be called an agent of the US). Iranians have good reasons to dislike the US. By removing a moderate, popular government from office out of short-term considerations, they opened the way for a much more brutal, oppressive and dangerous regime in the end.

    You'd think they'd learn.

    Thomas

  44. Selling nukes in space by dpilot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We're missing an opportunity here. This isn't about nuclear space propulsion, this is about:

    Permanently removing nuclear material from the Earth

    Look at what a wonderful service is being provided, nuclear material is being made to Go Away Forever. The minor factor that it opens up exploration of the solar system is a minor side-effect, we don't need to talk about that. Just think of the nuclear material elimination aspects.

    The hurdle is to convince skeptics that it's "Challenger-proof", not "Columbia-proof". Remember that this stuff is never intended to re-enter, only launch and leave, forever. From a materials durability point of view, that's quite a difference. Much more of Challenger was recovered than Columbia, and in better shape. That suggests that nuclear containment might well better survive a launch problem than a reentry one.

    I don't know if this is meant as humor, or not.

    --
    The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  45. Really efficient orbits using Lagrange points by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 2, Informative
    Turns out there are orbits that can easily and naturally 'fall' from one Lagrange point to another. And the Lagrange points for a complicated moon system like Jupiter's intersect frequently, so you can use to very efficiently hop from one moon to another while using orders of magnitude less fuel.

    It's much slower than traditional orbital transfers, but so much cheaper that it's worth using. It's already been used on SMART and Galileo:

    http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20050416/bob9. asp (even mentions using it for Jupiter moon exploration!)

    http://www.ufoindia.org/news_intsuperhighway.htm

    --
    PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
  46. Re:Risk by wiredlogic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The Soviets even reused RTGs salvaged from blown up missions because thay were in usable condition after plumeting from the sky and it was cheaper than building new ones. Any US designed nuclear reactor will be just as robust (unlike Topaz).

    --
    I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
  47. Not exactly... by mbessey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "when you take a small mass of radioactive material that gives off lethal amounts of radiation and spread it over a large geographic area you cannot get a lethal exposure. "

    It really doesn't work that way. Highly-radioactive chunks of metal of various sizes hit the ground after Cosmos 954 crashed. Several of them could have delivered a lethal dose to a person whio handled them without proper protection.

    Here's one reference
    And another reference
    That talk about the potential lethality of some of the recovered fragments from the satellite. Keep in mind that nobody knows how many of the fragments that hit the ground were actually recovered.