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UK Schools Told to Dump Microsoft

kubla2000 writes "The current issue of the Times Educational Supplement is running an article in which they cite a report by the British Educational Communications and Technology Association telling primary and secondary schools in the UK to dump Microsoft Operating systems and products in order to save millions. In a report to be published next week, obtained by The TES, Becta will highlight schools which have turned to free software instead of the market leader's products. Becta does not name Microsoft in its analysis. But almost all schools use some of the company's products. Their conclusion? Schools running OSS are saving 24% on average per pc versus those running proprietary systems."

28 of 646 comments (clear)

  1. Discount by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I bet they're are looking to get a sweet deal from Microsoft by threatening this...

    1. Re:Discount by dnixon112 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Probably not much lower. But I'm sure MS would give it away for free if it meant keeping people locked in.

    2. Re:Discount by Xrikcus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's wrong with free? Works for universities.

      Well... sometimes it works, anyway. We in my CS dept are still using win2000, apparently because MS hasn't given us XP and we have no intention of paying for it. The tactic hasn't worked for us yet... but then, it doesn't really harm us either.

    3. Re:Discount by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They can just give it away for free, in order to maintain their stronghold. Then, they just write it off as a donation of $199 a copy for Windows, and $500 a copy for office, and they end up making money off giving donations to the school.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    4. Re:Discount by porcupine8 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I would think of it as a loss leader...

      If kids get used to using OpenOffice.org, etc at school, then they're going to go home and tell their parents about it at home, who might decide to go for it on their next computer. When those kids get their own computer, they also might decide to try OpenOffice over MS Office. Same for teachers who get used to it at work - if they start saving their files in OOo's format, they want to be able to open them when they get home, etc.

      Especially when it comes to what the students are using, most schools only have a couple dozen computers for all the students to use. So by giving away 30 or so copies of MS Office, MS could be preventing a couple hundred kids from telling their parents about OOo.

      --
      Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
  2. Does it all come down to money by Saven+Marek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just recommending dumping one supplier of software simply to save money is a worry.

    Is our school's education all related to money? do we just want to make it cheaper?

    Or make it truly better. As much as I don't like Microsoft maybe there are situations where their software is best.

    Just saying to dump them because of cost to save 24% sounds appealing at a first glance, but then replacing teachers with babysitters at half the wages would save 50%.

    But it's not doing much good for the kids. Maybe a less broad "Microsoft is 100% evil" attitude would help the kids. Their the ones learning

    1. Re:Does it all come down to money by Saven+Marek · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But its not a all one or all the other thing.

      The report says to dump microsoft. What happens when microsoft do make the best tool for the job? It seems too broad to me.

      Maybe linux is good for 80% of things and MS good for 20%. maybe the other way around or some other combination. Is it certain that open source software is always the best use for our kids? always? without fail and no MS ever again?

    2. Re:Does it all come down to money by nacturation · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Want to really save money? Dump computers altogether in elementary schools. I didn't get involved with computers until grade 7, and even then it was a real stretch of the imagination -- a single LOGO class was about it. Even in high school, computers weren't all that prevalent until grade 11. As a result, I had to learn things the old fashioned way -- by figuring it out on my own without a computer doing it for me. I think things turned out fairly well as a result and my interest in computers carried me the rest of the way. Do kids these days even know multiplication tables without reaching for their cell phone's calculator app?

      --
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    3. Re:Does it all come down to money by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In my high school, I learned word perfect. However for spread sheets we used excel. Our teachers taught us how to read the menus in order to figure out what we needed to do. When I started using MS word, and later OpenOffice, I was able to do this with no problem. People who can't transfer from one word processor to another really have no skills at all anyway, because they will be just as lost when upgrading to a new version of the same system. It's like only being able to drive one model of car, because in other cars, the cruise control is operated differently.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    4. Re:Does it all come down to money by tomhudson · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Shouldn't a school prepare a kid for a job
      A school should be giving a kid a well-rounded education,. I don't think we're going to be prepping people for a job in grade 3 -we're giving them the basics.
      If that job requires use of Microsoft products to work
      ... even in this case, your argument doesn't hold up. The version that the kids will be learning on won' be the same one as when they go into the work force 5 years later ...

      Besides, how much "Microsoft Experience" did *you* need to be able to say "Do you want fries with that?"

  3. Re:Good by blowdart · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Nor should schools be a place to push an OSS agenda simply because it's OSS.

    Schools should, in theory, be pushing what is best for the pupil, not what is cheapest. So whilst there is an argument for using free software to teach, for example, programming, a course which teachs pupils spreadsheets or word processing could, arguably be using the most widespread software.

    Oh and the article title isn't exactly truthful. "Told to Dump Microsoft" makes it sound like it's an order from on high; it's not. It's a recommendation, not a government mandate.

  4. Obvious by scottme · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If the objective is simply to teach kids the basics of how computers work, what an operating system does, and what can be achieved with a word processor, a spreadsheet, or a database program, then OSS is perfectly adequate to the task. Given that Free software can easily at least match the basic capabilities of proprietary non-Free offerings, it is surely pretty obvious that there should be no real need to spend large amounts on licenses for proprietary software.

    However, don't overlook the wider politics of the matter. To some degree, what employers want is a trained workforce (as opposed to an educated one), and in that case it makes lots of sense to train them with the exact same tools they will be expected to use in employment. Which means Windows, MS Office, etc.

    Also, don't forget that it will surely be so much in Microsoft's interest to get those youngsters to equate software with Microsoft that they will provide exceptionally deep discounts to education purchasers - probably as far as giving the stuff away.

    It will take some principled political leadership to enforce an OSS policy on education in UK, and I really can't see much prospect of that coming from the current government.

    1. Re:Obvious by Henriok · · Score: 5, Insightful

      To some degree, what employers want is a trained workforce (as opposed to an educated one), and in that case it makes lots of sense to train them with the exact same tools they will be expected to use in employment. Which means Windows, MS Office, etc.

      I was taught DOS when I was in elementary school. When I graduated and got a job, what use did I have for my knowledge in DOS?

      This argument you have is absolutely moot since the landscape of operating systems are changeing so fast.

      --

      - Henrik

      - when the Shadows descend -
    2. Re:Obvious by jawtheshark · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Now, don't get me wrong: DOS is archaic these days... BUT you learnt what a file is, what a program is, how to manage directories and basic skills on the command line. You might think that this is stupid, but that are basic computing skills that you have (unknownly) transferred to using in other contexts. Let it be Windows, Linux, Mac OS X or any other operating system of your choice that uses files, programs and have a command line.

      Kids these days do not know the difference between a program and a file. Double clicking on a file is "starting the program", they often don't know where exactly on the filesystem they have saved their file, they don't know what a file type is (Text file? That must be Word, right?) and I could rave on. I see this every day, and it is absolutely maddening.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
  5. Only in case of equivalent quality by moz25 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think it's a good move, but only if there is no significant downgrade in terms of quality. Making such a move solely based on monetary or semi-political motivation wouldn't be good. With the current state of OSS software (e.g. OpenOffice), we might be seeing this condition met.

  6. Chicken on face? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have this exact problem. In school we were only given LUMOCOLOR pens. Now when I look for work and they ask me if I know how to use Blic pens I just break down and cry. I blame my education for my inability to adapt to change. I think schools should do something about this!!

  7. Re:Good by bhalo05 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So whilst there is an argument for using free software to teach, for example, programming, a course which teachs pupils spreadsheets or word processing could, arguably be using the most widespread software.

    Why? They should teach a generic use of a word processor, I doubt the goal it's about becoming an expert in an especific product. Then why should they teach expensive programs that students possibly can not afford to use at home legally or share between them?

  8. Re:Chicken or the Egg? by torpor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Computer competency does not come from learning one app, and one app alone. It does not come from restrictive interface to a single tool.

    Computers are utterly arbitrary machines.. software only works when people agree on the way software should work, and then use it.

    For schools to be shifting focus from Microsft to OSS is a good thing, because it highlights, yet again, the reality of computers, in that they are only as good as the things you use them for.

    I for one welcome our future generations of computer-using students whose competence on computers will have been refined as a result of the shift as much as the actual software used .. anyone who has been in the computer realm longer than a couple of decades should surely know, by now, that computers are a rapidly spinning barrel upon which no man should try to stand .. true competence comes from the ability to learn AND USE X, and/or Y, and/or Z to get some computing job done, not from 'having learned A, and only A, and very rarely B to do only one particular job, ever' ...

    --
    ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
  9. Excellent news, but replacements for s/w? by michaeldot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't schools use a lot of software that runs on top of either of the Windows or Mac platforms?

    Are there OSS equivalents for titles like The Way Things Work, or science lab programs, astronomy simulations, or all those Director based multimedia titles, etc?

    OSS is great at replacing an office suite, email program, graphics editor, etc.

    But are there a lot of OSS educational programs out there, or educators going to rely on web site content?

    Just curious.

  10. Re:Great opportunity for OSS by Xrikcus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not suitable for use in schools? What do you think schoolkids do on the computers? Everything I ever did in a school IT lesson I could have done in an out of the box linux distro at the time, even more so now. Possible that some of the circuit design software for design tech might be missing... but then we had old Acorn machines still running for that very reason anyway and then had a few dedicated windows machines installed running just that, for the majority of school computers linux is just fine. Based on the UK National Curriculum at any rate, which is what matters for this.

  11. Speaking as a UK tax payer, this is a good move by pandrijeczko · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I have always found it disgusting that some of the taxes I pay for public services find their way into the pockets of private enterprise, financing the huge salaries of CEOs and paying out to shareholders.

    I recognise that sometimes this is unavoidable - for example, hospitals need computers and those computers need to be bought from a PC supplier like, say, Dell. But I would alaways hope that in such a curcumstance, the best deal possible has been negotiated.

    In the case of software in schools, I do not understand why commercial software is purchased when viable free alternatives exist at the level at which they are used in schools - for example, if a schoolkid is being taught how to use a word processor or how to create a spreadsheet, why do they need MS Office when OpenOffice has more than enough functionality for the level they need?

    What's more heartbreaking is the fact that companies like Microsoft suck money out of the system which can instead be put to better use training and paying teachers more, on books, etc.

    No, I'm not blaming Microsoft alone or directly, they're just a business trying to make money after all, but Open Source software can also serve as an example to kids to show them what can be achieved when people put pure financial gain to one side and just work together for the purpose of making something good.

    --
    Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  12. Re:Good by Jondor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't agree with MS's business practices, nor its monopolization in software, but children are not best served by denying them the skills they're most likely to use in work.

    By the time these children have to "work" whatever version of software they learned their skills on will be outdated. Schools should learn general skills, not specific software or versions.

    --
    Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!
  13. Well, as an educational software developer. . . by ahfoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think this is even more tricky than what you've pointed out.
    The real trick is in the tools market. Educational software is a special class of software. It's very different from say engineering or scientific software. It's not like networking applications or graphics or text editors. Those are all software applications, but in the bbrave new world of edutainment you tend to think of the software in terms of "titles" or at least in subject matter categories because subject matter or content is the emphasis rather than usage or applicaton.
    Most adults who don't have kids in school simply rely on their memories and think that computers in school are about teaching typing or perhaps even programming or maybe using the Net. Well, that' certainly can still be the case, but in the 90s, things changed and software pervaded education in a way that it never did before and a lot of people aren't aware of the extent to which that happened. In many schools entire curricula are computer based and a very small set of companies has a major chunk of that market.
    The major tools providers in this market create tools for "non-programmers" because they're meant to be used by "content specialists" and specifically that means teachers. This class of development tool is not a popular one among open source enthusiasts particularly because they build their applications around runtime applications that are guaranteed to lock-in the products.
    THis is the reason I have long insisted that education will ironically be the last bastion of closed source. It's a systemic issue with roots in the tools market.
    The one thing that could change this sad situation is precisely the sort of thing being proposed here. That is, with a bit of encouragement of this sort, companies like Macromedia with an elephant's presence in educational software might be more likely to release Linux runtimes which would allow existing projects to be re-packaged as Linux native apps.
    And, since Adobe has recently purchased Macromedia, perhaps such a change might be even more likely as Adobe proceeds to "enter new markets" as they have stated they plan to do.
    Luckily, it's not that urgent either way because most of those eudcational apps built with Macromedia tools like Director and Authorware can already be run under Wine.
    Then coming back to your point about "best tool for the job" it is really just about OS's rather than the apps since, with the help of Wine, the apps tend to work both ways. And with some pressure, a native Linux run-time could change those apps into native Linux apps at the click of a button as long as the original project files were saved and typically a big project gets archived.
    So, it's really about what OS to use simply to hold the content. If you seriously think Windows is a better tool in this case then I would simply say that if it's my tax dollars you're dealing with, you're wrong.

    or say text editors or , tends to be very heavy on repetitive GUI interaction with an emphasis on displaying multimedia content and creating easy-to-use interactions that make use of moving graphics and animations and the like. The goals of educational software are very different from most software applications.

  14. Or they buy it.. :( by xtal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sigh.. visio.

    --
    ..don't panic
  15. Old-think to worry about Microsoft training by rufusdufus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A lot of people seem to be saying that kids should be taught Microsoft so they wont need to be retrained when then get jobs. This is inflexible old-think espoused by people who really don't understand how computers work.

    It is only people who lack much experience with a diversity of technology who think you need to be trained how to use each specific task keystroke by keystroke.

    Young people who have grown up in a technological enviroment have much more powerful mental paradigms relating to computers. Truly proficient computer users do not need to know specific details about what menu to use or what button to press. They have a higher level understanding of the general design of user interfaces and can jump with little effort from windows to mac to linux to xbox to ps2 to nokia to motorola and so on.

    Increasing exposure to more types of technology is in the end a better education than intensive study on one particular (soon to be obselescent) technology.

  16. Please let this happen by el_womble · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Genuinely teaching kids how to use information communication technologies and not Microsoft Office is one of my pet peeves. A kid that is taught the fundamentals of GUI and CLI use and is exposed to several different implemetations is going to be significantly better off as with any luck they'll absorb the concept of usage metaphores.

    Rather than teaching a child how to use Outlook to send emails, I'd rather they were taught how emails fit in to their toolkit of applications. When to send an email not a letter, when to send an email not make a phone call, not: Press Start, Program files, Outlook Express compose new email. If nothing else it future proofs their knowledge.

    What kids need is as much exposure to different technologies as is possible and genuine disscusion on when that technology is appropriate, that means using proprietary and OSS solutions.

    The problem here is making sure that the teachers understand this and the curriculum reflects this. The scary thing is even IT professionals don't seem to understand.

    --
    Scared of flying, pointy things snce 1979!
  17. Re:Save money now!!! See what happens later. by andrewweb · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Schools should be teaching children "concepts", and not "programs". ie, the concept of a GUI, the concept of an email application, the concept of a web browser.

    That way, the students are equipped to move from os to os, platform to platform without prejudice.

    It's how your user who has never seen anything other than MS products can move from XP to OSX or KDE with little difficulty without complaining about the missing start button and throwing up their hands in horror.

    It's how they can deduce how to browse the web, write a letter or send an email based on experiences in other systems.

    Platform independence comes naturally once you understand the underlying concepts. This is what should be concentrated on rather than "product X".

    That schools may be using OSS is not the point and it shouldn't be championed on that aspect alone. Get a mix in there, let the kids see all sorts.

  18. Re:bollocks by walt-sjc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think that depends on the school. Not all schools have the funds to buy computers and take whatever they can get. This is especially true in the US where local property tax dollars are frequently the primary source of funding. In poor / rural areas, there just isn't the money to buy all new systems every 4 years. Heck, I still see old Mac Classic's and 386's all over the place.

    Furthermore, Linux doesn't have the same diverse hardware issues when dealing with images that windows does. Think Knoppix as an example of how this works.

    Bottom, line is that this is NOT a "clearly false" argument as you claim. It may be false SOME places, not not ALL places.